The press didnt report the truth about the Fence

You see I just don't understand this. Hope springs from the heart, not property rights.

It is the United States which is a vital ally of Israel, not the other way round.

I don't see how it helps US oil interests either since Israel itself has no oil, and that US support for Israel jeopardises its relationship with the surrounding Arab countries that do.

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Don't forget that Israel is also a nuclear power.

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Steve, are you suggesting we abandon Israel because the Arabs hate Israel and, by association, hate us for supporting Israel?

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Well there's no doubt the US is hated in the Arab world partly over US support for Israel.

No I don't suggest the US abandons Israel, but a little more even handed approach to the Israeli/Palestinian problem would certainly help.

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The Palestinians are people unto themselves and it has nothing to do with the Arabs and their supposed hate.

If someone came to your home and took it over, what are you supposed to do, just let them do it or fight back and be called a terrorist?

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Steve writes:

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No I don't suggest the US abandons Israel, but a little more even handed approach to the Israeli/Palestinian problem would certainly help.

Right or wrong, the Israelis occupy a country created for them by the United Nations. Right or wrong, the occupied territories (West Bank, Golan Heights, Gaza Strip) were seized and held when Israel's neighbors attempted to wipe it off the map. (It was definitely wrong for Israel's neighbors to attempt to eliminate them--public opinion is still divided over whether Israel should have to return the occupied lands to their enemies.)

Most of the Palestinians now living in Israel and the occupied territories were not there when Israel was created. There is room to believe that the relatively few Palestianians who were there at the time got less than a fair deal and/or were not treated equitably.

I think the Palestinians would now be ordinary citizens of Israel living their lives in peace and prosperity had the Palestinian self-appointed leaders (Arafat) not been determined to destroy Israel. No matter what is going on, few honorable people disagree that it is wrong to firebomb restaurants and bars and busses loaded with school children. It is very difficult to fault Israel for objecting to that and using overwhelming force in their objection. This has created a good deal of inequities and suffering for the Palestinians.

Wherever the wall has gone up, terrorist activities have dropped to essentially zero. Honorable people should have a hard time seeing that as a bad thing.

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Honorable people also should think about the Palestinian children who get killed everyday, they just don't have a handy excuse.

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But Revel, the wall has stopped the animosities. Israel, to the best of my knowledge, has never attacked the Palestians except in retaliation for an attack. So now the Palestinians aren't attacking (because they can't) and Israel is leaving them alone. So long as the wall stays up, the Palestinian children are safe at least from the Israelis.

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Right or wrong, the Israelis occupy a country created for them by the United Nations.

Not exactly. They occupy much more than that.

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Right or wrong, the occupied territories (West Bank, Golan Heights, Gaza Strip) were seized and held when Israel's neighbors attempted to wipe it off the map.

Spoils of war eh?

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(It was definitely wrong for Israel's neighbors to attempt to eliminate them--public opinion is still divided over whether Israel should have to return the occupied lands to their enemies.)

So if Israel's neighbours are definitely in the wrong, that makes Israel definitely right, right?

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Most of the Palestinians now living in Israel and the occupied territories were not there when Israel was created.

And neither were the Jews, so what's the point?

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There is room to believe that the relatively few Palestianians who were there at the time got less than a fair deal and/or were not treated equitably.

Well if its not fair to be forcibly evicted from your property, your land seized, your villages destroyed, well then yes I agree it was not exactly equitable.

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I think the Palestinians would now be ordinary citizens of Israel living their lives in peace and prosperity had the Palestinian self-appointed leaders (Arafat) not been determined to destroy Israel.

I see. So its just Arafat stirring up trouble?

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No matter what is going on, few honorable people disagree that it is wrong to firebomb restaurants and bars and busses loaded with school children.

Not few, absolutely none in my book. And no honourable person could possibly agree with the activities of the Jewish terrorist gangs such as the Stern and the Irgun could they?

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It is very difficult to fault Israel for objecting to that and using overwhelming force in their objection.

If I'd just seen my kids blown to bits, yes I think I would object. But I would still be wrong if I used overwhelming force by, say, a nuclear reprisal attack on Damascus. Your argument does not follow.

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This [what the use of overwhelming force?] has created a good deal of inequities and suffering for the Palestinians.

I think this is undeniable.

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Wherever the wall has gone up, terrorist activities have dropped to essentially zero.

You are making an assumption of cause and effect here. Maybe they're sat at home making bombs while wondering if Israel will be forced to tear it down.

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Honorable people should have a hard time seeing that as a bad thing.

Well the International Court of Justice at the Hague has said it is a bad thing. Their Honours are honourable people, by definition. They think its so bad in fact that they have ordered Israel to pull it down, and compensate the people affected by it.

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Well nothing in your rebuttal, even the parts that make sense, changes my mind on the issue Steve. Smile

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But Revel, the wall has stopped the animosities. Israel, to the best of my knowledge, has never attacked the Palestians except in retaliation for an attack

Um. I don't even know where to begin with this.

I guess you can sum it up easily by saying, you don't have to attack people when you can simply oppress and starve them to death for years. It's the slower route to the same finale.

The conditions they force the palestine people to live in are horrible. If you went over there and saw it for yourself (as I have) you would never support Israel again.

Please, please, try to read up some on how bad things are over there before blaming the Palestinian people for all the problems. And remember - the past, the events leading up to today, really don't mean anything. What matters is how a person or group of people decides to treat a different group of people. And the treatment decided upon by the Isrealis is brutal, oppressive, and inhumane.

Cycloptichorn

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How is Israel responsible for the Palestinian leadership's failure to support their country? Is Palestine nothing more than an Israeli welfare state? By that reasoning, we can hold Egypt accountable for the starvation in Sudan!

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Well I haven't been there personallyand can't say whether being there in person would change my mind. I can believe I think what my friends who have been there and done business there tell me. Most of the Palestinians living in the occupied territories moved there at the urging of their leaders. While there is plenty of criticism to go around on both sides, I still believe had the militant Palestinians not used the tactics they they employed (fire bombing school children etc.) and had the rest of the citizenry not tolerated the terrorists living in their neighborhoods, things would not be as bad as they are for the Palestinians now.

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How is Israel responsible for the Palestinian leadership's failure to support their country? Is Palestine nothing more than an Israeli welfare state? By that reasoning, we can hold Egypt accountable for the starvation in Sudan!

I'm glad you asked.

Palestine has no infrastructure. They don't have strategic control of water or power generation plants. They are, at the current time, unable to support their own economy, especially with respect to food and water procurements.

They have no sense of permanency - the Israelis bulldoze whatever they like and there isn't much the Palestinian people can do about it. Palestinians are allowed to work in Israel, sometimes, but without clear guidlines and with spotty enforcement.

Many Palestinian communities have no real access to information technology, and that's the way Israel likes it. Same goes for power, and many places only get water 2 or 3 days a week while the nice Jewish invasion outpost, oops, I meant settlement, gets everything they want.

When an Israeli force kills a child in Palestine (which happens on a regular basis - when you use rocket attacks to go after your enemies, you tend to hit some civilians in the process) there is NO hope of justice for the parents, no hope of finding out who was responsible, no recompensation. Nothing.

And so the situation goes on and on, things get worse and worse, and people keep saying that Israel isn't responsible for creating the situation. Right. Are the Palestinians making anything better? Nope. But the Israelis aren't, either.

Cycloptichorn

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Sounds to me like a failed country with a failed leadership. Blaming Israel isn't going to fix the problems. Especially the Arafat problem. It doesn't appear that he is starving or going thirsty.

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Sounds to me like a failed country with a failed leadership. Blaming Israel isn't going to fix the problems. Especially the Arafat problem. It doesn't appear that he is starving or going thirsty.

So you claim the Jews are not responsible for the problems there, in any way?

Cycloptichorn

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That's the thing. I don't see the rich Arab neighbors who soundly criticize Israel lifting a finger to help out the Palestinians. Makes you wonder how much they really care about the Palestinians doesn't it?

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That's the thing. I don't see the rich Arab neighbors who soundly criticize Israel lifting a finger to help out the Palestinians. Makes you wonder how much they really care about the Palestinians doesn't it?

Don't shift the topic of discussion. What you just posted has nothing to do with how Israel treats the Palestinians.

Cycloptichorn

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not responsible? I don't recall saying that. I do recall you implying they were solely responsible though.

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I think it is entirely pertinent Cylops. It is the aggression of Israel's Arab neighbors that caused the occupied territories to be seized in the first place. It is the treatment of the Palestinians in the occupied territories that they most several criticize now. But wouldn't you think that if the welfare of the Palestinians was the Arab neighbor's true agenda, they would be helping them?

I think Israel sees all their Arab neighbors as a very real threat and I think they see that as justification for holding onto the occupied territories.

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The press didnt report the truth about the Fence

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