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Transgendered or Autogynephilia? What's the probability?

 
 
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2015 11:51 am
Given the recent attention to transgender surgery, it seems appropriate to consider whether a male to female transsexual who remains attracted to women is, in fact, (or was, in fact) transsexual in the first place, or simply suffering (or, having suffered) from autogynephilia, as defined by Blanchard.

If these terms are unfamiliar, I suggest a google search to bring you up to speed. There is plenty of information available. I ask to call attention to a reported 41% increase in suicide attempts for those who have completed transgender surgery compared to the general population.
See http://www.sexchangeregret.com/research/suicide-study

Many young people experience gender dysphoria. What do you think?
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2015 12:12 pm
@neologist,
what is the suicide (attempted/successful) rate of people desiring gender reassignment surgery?
neologist
 
  0  
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2015 12:25 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
what is the suicide (attempted/successful) rate of people desiring gender reassignment surgery?
You know, I am not sure. But, considering the major surgery and lifestyle adjustment required, do you think more attention should be paid to all possible consequences?

I ask because of the commonality of gender dysphoria among young people that eventually resolves into gender acceptance.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  4  
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2015 12:28 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
What do you think?


I think using a source called sexchangeregret is a mistake if someone wants to be taken seriously.
neologist
 
  0  
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2015 12:32 pm
@ehBeth,
I found the website just today after hearing a discussion of the suicide statistics on local radio. Perhaps I should have read it more closely, but it seemed to present enough info to begin a discussion.

I've known of the phenomenon of autogynephilia for many years. I was a psych major, after all.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  3  
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2015 12:33 pm
The people I know who have accepted themselves as transgender and made a variety of changes have been happier, settled with themselves, than they ever had been previously. I get that this is anecdotal.

Hey, maybe it's society's often rabid condemnation that promotes suicidal thinking.
neologist
 
  0  
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2015 12:49 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
The people I know who have accepted themselves as transgender and made a variety of changes have been happier, settled with themselves, than they ever had been previously. I get that this is anecdotal.

Hey, maybe it's society's often rabid condemnation that promotes suicidal thinking.
I don't doubt that many adjust well.

And societal pressures can have cruel consequences.

But autogynephilia is still a known condition. And, perhaps not a good reason for surgery.

PUNKEY
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2015 02:27 pm
I got very confused about Bruce Jenner saying he wanted to dress like a woman in public, but he was still was aroused by women and planned on having relationships with women. I have never heard of this term before (autogynephilia) but, to me, it fits his issues.

I don't see how his issue helps the transgender population.

I don't know if I want to see it splashed all over the news every day, however.



ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2015 04:19 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

But autogynephilia is still a known condition. And, perhaps not a good reason for surgery.


that's a decision for an individual and their team of health care professionals, not speculation by a former psych major
neologist
 
  0  
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2015 04:24 pm
@PUNKEY,
I think one problem is that too few therapists are either unaware of autogynephilia or discount it, since it is considered a paraphilia while transgender identification is labeled as more of a genetic issue and, therefore 'normal'.

I wonder if it might be more appropriate to treat all transgender individuals, first for self esteem issues, then for gender assignment considerations. Once the operation has been completed, reversal seems an incredible problem.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jun, 2015 04:37 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
. . . that's a decision for an individual and their team of health care professionals, not speculation by a former psych major
Well, excuse me for bringing it up.

You apparently have missed my purpose. Many young people go through periods of gender identity issues. I have grandchildren of that age. I would want them to understand that what they feel neither isolates them from the human race, nor defines their adult sexuallity.

I could be wrong. I could be very wrong. But I think I am right that life defining decisions are being made much too frequently and far too early. Any parents or counselors who chance on this topic would do well to consider.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2015 12:11 pm
I'm quite befuddled by the reaction to this thread.

If the statistics are correct, certainly more attention should be given to the needs of those suffering from gender dysphoria before something as drastic as surgery is undertaken.

One reason for this caution is the tendency for affected individuals to feel isolated, to ruminate over their condition, and make decisions based on wishful thinking. I'm not convinced that rigorous screening is the rule in all such cases, particularly when a child is involved.
Pantalones
 
  3  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2015 09:45 am
@neologist,
A lot of attention is given to the needs of people who have gender dysphoria. For most people there is a period of years on hormone treatment before they undergo surgery of any kind, there are exceptions of course but that in what I've seen in my personal research.

There are many cases of happy, well-adjusted trans children as is the case of Jazz Jennings and Coy Mathis.

Autogynephilia is something that has been debunked a while ago with the main point being that:

Quote:
There is a similarly long history of “autogynephilia” being described as a “male”-specific phenomenon and a paraphilia—these notions are interrelated, as (according to psychiatric dogma) paraphilias are extremely rare or nonexistent in women.[1] However, recent studies have shown that many cisgender women (up to 93%) have experienced “erotic arousal to the thought or image of oneself as a woman.” Therefore, we should no longer use a term that is so closely associated with paraphilias and “erotic anomalies” (as Blanchard calls them) to describe what appears to be a relatively common (and non-pathological) form of sexual thought or fantasy experienced by many female/feminine-identified people.

See: http://juliaserano.blogspot.mx/2015/05/reconceptualizing-autogynephilia-as_26.html
neologist
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2015 10:27 am
@Pantalones,
I have face to face knowledge of at least one individual for whom this definition fits exactly. He is now a seemingly well adjusted adult heterosexual male. For a time, he experienced considerable needless anxiety.

And, I am aware of studies which have sought to debunk the idea. But, knowing the degree of statistical significance normally reached in such studies, I like to examine the rogue data, even though it may seem irrelevant. In the case of Ms. Jenner, I thought it notable that she reportedly professes a sexual attraction to women. I assume that issue has been addressed in her case.

Is it a factor in the transgender suicide rate? I don't know. I offer it as an anecdote for consideration. I would guess fewer than 1% of a2k members have ever heard of the idea. Judging from the attention given this thread, I don't think that %age has changed.
Pantalones
 
  3  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2015 11:28 am
@neologist,
I have face to face knowledge of many individuals for whom that definitions does not fit at all, myself included. I am a well adjusted (according to me, at least) adult bisexual female. For a time I also experienced a great amount of needless anxiety that I think I could have avoided if I had transitioned earlier, I don't regret not doing it earlier because it's very clear I wasn't ready financially and emotionally.

I don't know how much experimentation the person you talk about did and if he would use the word 'regret' to describe what he feels.
Personally, I thought about transition regret a lot before starting even coming out to people. I think that if I ever decided to return to the point I started in the gender spectrum I would do it without regret because I would now have experienced it and felt that this life isn't for me, and I think I would do it with less anxiety. Not that I have any plans of going back but I feel more free to explore gender now and to not restrict myself to a particular box.

There are a lot of trans people attracted to people of their same sex, just like cis people. Who they prefer is a part of who they are. Jenner herself said "sexual orientation is who you go to bed with, gender identity is who you go to bed as" (paraphrasing). One does not affect the other. In most cases, an important part of a male sex fantasy is being a man and having a male body independent of whatever particular fantasy is occurring at the moment; the same case applies to women, women get aroused by the idea of having a female body when having sexual fantasies.

I quote a bit more
Quote:
Blanchard’s model makes two etiological claims. The first is that cross-gender arousal arises from a “misdirected heterosexual impulse”; this claim was shown to be highly suspect in the previous section. The second claim—that cross-gender arousal causes gender dysphoria and a desire to transition to female in nonandrophilic MtF transsexuals—is based solely on Blanchard’s correlations and his anecdotal theory of “erotic target location errors.” No hard evidence has been forwarded to establish or support this proposed causal relationship. In fact, in the original papers in which Blanchard first developed and tested his theory of autogynephilia (Blanchard, 1989a, 1989b, 1991, 1992), there is no exploration or even discussion of the possibility that cross-gender arousal may be an effect of gender dysphoria (rather than its cause) or that both traits might simply correlate in nonandrophilic MtF individuals for some other reason. This oversight is surprising, given that Blanchard’s own research provides several lines of evidence to indicate that the causal relationship he proposes does not hold true. [1]


If you're interested in trans suicide there a whole PDF on it from which I quote:
Quote:
In regard to timing of suicide attempts and gender transition, some surveys and clinical studies have found that transgender people are at an elevated risk for suicide attempt during gender transition, while rates of suicide attempts decrease after gender transition (Whittle et al., 2007; DeCuypere et al., 2006; Transgender Equality Network Ireland, 2012). [2]


1) http://www.juliaserano.com/av/Serano-CaseAgainstAutogynephilia.pdf
2) http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2015 12:55 pm
@Pantalones,
Thanks for your convincing input.

I am 90% convinced, more or less. I continue to recommend caution for the remaining 10%+/-
Pantalones
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2015 04:14 pm
@neologist,
Thank you for keeping an open mind about this sensitive topic for many of us
0 Replies
 
HesDeltanCaptain
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Aug, 2015 09:35 am
@neologist,
Gender dysphoria (formerly known as GID) and transsexuality/transgenderism are different things. The former two are clinical terms for a disorder. Transsexualism is a biological reality, not 'something just in your head.' Up until literally the other day, I was working on the assumption that sex chromosomes revealed our biological sex, and assumed some or many transsexuals were in fact XX or XY and when identifying as transsexual more likely suffering some kind of body dysmorphic issue misperceiving or mischaracterizing themselves. A bit of reading later though and I discovered that the 'Y' sex chromosome does not in fact make one male as genes can be present on the 'XX' chromosomes of what would seem to be females making them in fact males despite presenting as 'XX' and presumedly female. These then would likely come to identify as 'men trapped in women's bodies' because in a literal sense that's exactly what's going on. And the reverse happens as well.

0 Replies
 
momoends
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 11:44 pm
@neologist,
Sexuality has nothing to do with gender identity.... It is still not clear nowadays?!!!!
0 Replies
 
momoends
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 11:50 pm
@neologist,
I know nothing about sex changing protocolos there, but here in spain they work with psiquiatric support and have to live as the desired gender for at least a year before getting hormonal treatment and genital reasignation surgery
0 Replies
 
 

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