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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 09:51 am
Ican711 nm wrote
Quote:
Incredible! So to punish the president we should replace him regardless of the fact that the only available alternative has repeatedly demonstrated that he would do far worse. Who then really gets punished? We Americans do.


Demonstrated? In what way has he demonstrated? If anyone has demonstrated failure of ideas and actions it is the man from Texas. Who by your own admission is a bumbler or as you put it stumbled. We need new policies and ideas and a new direction,the only way to get them is by sweeping out those who have put us on the road to failure and indeed disaster.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 11:55 am
Nice piece in the asian times today:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FI11Ak03.html

Quote:
Middle East

THE ROVING EYE
Why al-Qaeda is winning
By Pepe Escobar

Three years after September 11, President George W Bush's crusade is a failure. "War on terror" is a meaningless myth: you can't combat a supple attack machine like al-Qaeda with shock and awe. What should have been a long, meticulous police operation was turned by Bush - instigated by his foreign policy adviser, God - into an illegal, preemptive attack on a nation that had nothing to do with terror.

This policy has actually increased terror attacks around the world. Last year in Cairo, on the eve of the invasion of Iraq, Sheikh Yamani, a man who knows one or two things about Arabs, violence and oil, said the invasion would produce "one hundred bin Ladens". They are here, and they have no one else but Bush to thank.

Bush's mission from God
Bush's key perceived strength - apart from his dynastic family name and extra-profitable connections - is his carefully polished image of a strong, straight-shooting, tough-talking commander-in-chief during times of war.

It should be very easy for the slumbering John Kerry campaign to smash that armory. Before Iraq turned into a quagmire - before the 1,000th dead American soldier, the 7,000th wounded American soldier, the 14,000th or maybe even 22,000th dead Iraqi civilian - Bush kept insisting that Iraq was "the new front in the war on terror". Now Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney are doing everything in their power not to make the connection - because a majority of Americans seem to view Bush as relatively strong on terror, but a failure in Iraq.

Two related facts are undisputable: more Americans are facing death and destruction in Iraq after Saddam Hussein was captured than before; and now there are increasingly more global terrorist attacks than when Bush proclaimed his "crusade", or "war on terror". The Bush administration always sold the war on Iraq as part of the "war on terror". Reminding Americans about it is to fully certify Bush's overall failure.

In his acceptance speech at the Republican convention in New York, Bush said that "the government of a free Afghanistan is fighting terror; Pakistan is capturing terrorist leaders; Saudi Arabia is making raids and arrests; Libya is dismantling its weapons programs; the army of a free Iraq is fighting for freedom; and more than three-quarters of al-Qaeda's key members and associates have been detained or killed".

But consider this: Osama bin Laden, his deputy Dr Ayman al-Zawahiri and Taliban leader Mullah Omar have not been "smoked out" or captured - "dead or alive", or otherwise - and most likely are still very much active in Afghanistan. And now al-Qaeda, in its delocalized mutation, is thriving around the world. There's nothing "free" about Afghanistan: the Taliban are back, controlling vast areas of the country, in the south and southeast, and the rest is controlled by warlords. In the Afghan presidential election next month, Hamid Karzai will be certified, at most, as the mayor of Kabul. In Pakistan, President General Pervez Musharraf - known as "Busharraf" - barely survives multiple assassination attempts as dictator-in-charge.

And there's nothing "free" about Iraq. Shi'ite leader Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani - who wants direct elections - and the militant Shi'ite leader Muqtada al-Sadr - who wants the end of the occupation now - are the most popular figures in the country. Former US asset turned American-imposed Prime Minister Iyad Allawi barely controls a few Baghdad neighborhoods. The 1,000th dead American soldier pales in comparison with the Bush administration losing the whole Sunni triangle to the Iraqi nationalist resistance. This loss is proof that the war is unwinnable. It also reduces the January 2005 Iraqi elections - if they ever happen - to a joke.

The bottom line: since Bush proclaimed his "crusade" or mission from God against terror, the United States, the Middle East and the world are immensely less safe.

Bush-Cheney '04 are afraid US voters will start making these connections as the November elections draw closer. For the apocalyptic Cheney - as on the campaign trail in Iowa - there's nothing left but the language of fear: "It's absolutely essential that eight weeks from today, on November 2, we make the right choice, because if we make the wrong choice then the danger is that we'll get hit again." So this is how it works: If you vote Bush, al-Qaeda won't strike. If you vote Kerry, al-Qaeda will strike. Kerry, therefore, is a threat to the US. The problem is, bin Laden votes Bush. Here's why.

The al-Qaeda makeover
Al-Qaeda is more of a multi-headed hydra than ever: the "global" head plus the "local" heads. "Global" al-Qaeda includes groups of multinational operatives striking in the US (as in September 11) or in Western Europe (Madrid's train blasts). These are above all Arab-Afghans, remnants of the jihad of the 1980s against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. "Local" al-Qaeda on the other hand strike in their native countries against Western targets (for example in Casablanca, Bali and Istanbul): these are all part of the big al-Qaeda franchising.

The "historic" al-Qaeda is itself split in two: bin Laden's faithfuls, who have followed him since the Peshawar, Pakistan, days for more than two decades; and the new breed who "graduated" in Afghanistan from 1997 to 2001. Many of bin Laden's faithful have been killed or captured - in essence by Pakistani, not US, forces: they include Mohammed Atef, Abu Zubayda, Suleiman Abu Graith and the alleged mastermind of September 11, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.

For a long time Western intelligence was prone to propagate the myth of al-Qaeda as a pre-September 11 organization with many heads, with sleeping cells occasionally galvanized into action. This is false. Al-Qaeda as a rule waits for no one - unless technical glitches occur, and these usually involve delays in recruitment, research, team-assembling and elaborate counter-security measures. The delays also prove that al-Qaeda is much less of a well-oiled organization than the Bush administration would like the world to believe.

Al-Qaeda subscribes to no political strategy, other than the strategy of total opportunism: as any kind of attack can happen any time, anywhere, it rules by fear - while at the same time demonstrating it is immune to any large-scale US war, from Afghanistan to Iraq. The rule-by-fear tactic also serves the Bush administration well, as fear is constantly used as a powerful political argument to justify the administration's policies ("Be afraid, be very much afraid, but you can count on us to protect you").

Unlike the Bush administration's spin, European intelligence experts in Brussels assured Asia Times Online that the Madrid bombing was only accidentally tied to Spain's national elections. It was not the case that "Spaniards had bowed to terror" (Washington's version), but that Bush ally Jose Maria Aznar's conservative government was mendacious enough to lie to the country, blaming Basque separatists when it already had evidence to the contrary.

The avant-garde brigades
The members of al-Qaeda's new elite were either born in Western Europe - many hold a legitimate European Union passport - or came to the West while still very young and then became radicalized. As Bush is a born-again Christian, they are sort of born-again Islamists. The most important fact is that this "return of the repressed" (Islam) is above all a political radicalization. The new breed's brand of political Islam is much more "political" than "Islam".

Very few of these new brigades come directly from Islamic countries. And their exile is one-way: they never come back to where their families come from. The classic itinerary was to sharpen the knives at a peripheral jihad - Afghanistan, Kashmir, Chechnya - to become widely respected mujahideen, and then go back to Western Europe. They never went to fight in the Maghreb or in the Middle East - although the war in Iraq started to change this pattern.

In 1997, bin Laden obtained from his friend and admirer Mullah Omar monopoly control over the Arab-Afghan training camps in Afghanistan. Meanwhile, the Pakistanis and the Uzbeks maintained their own training camps. This means that every single jihadi who was not Pakistani or from Central Asia who went to Afghanistan between 1997 and 2001 was trained at an al-Qaeda camp.

Unlike the faithful, none of the new breed of Arab-Afghans is close to bin Laden. But they definitely inherited a legendary al-Qaeda esprit de corps. The best and the brightest were trained to come back to Western Europe, wait and then raise hell. But the majority stayed behind fighting alongside the Taliban: among these were the hundreds captured by the forces of commander Ahmad Shah Masoud, the Lion of the Panjshir, before he was assassinated exactly three years ago, on September 9 - al-Qaeda's "signal" for September 11.

The best and the brightest of this new al-Qaeda elite form the current backbone of bin Laden's organization - the people who have masterminded and carried out global attacks for the past two years. They remain a very tight bunch, although now thoroughly globalized; treason - and squealing - is out of the question; and most astonishingly, there's nothing to it of a secret society. They work as a band of brothers, sharing everything - apartments, bank accounts - even in the open. Al-Qaeda's joint chiefs, the command and control structure, the base cells and the complex networks, everything works like some family enterprise in northern Italy, based on personal relationships, be they nurtured in Afghanistan or in any other country. But then a complex process of deterritorialization sets in, and the virus spreads.

For al-Qaeda, this poses a tremendous problem. It's easy for Western intelligence (or for the Pakistanis, when they're up to it) to grab a bunch of operatives after identifying a single one of them - as with the recent arrests in Pakistan timed to coincide with the Democratic convention. And with no al-Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan anymore, there are no places left to meet: Chechnya is too dangerous, the tribal areas in the Pakistan-Afghan border are teeming with US troops, and the Shawal region that straddles Pakistan and Afghanistan is too remote and under constant satellite surveillance.

Brand recognition the name of the game
This is a key reason al-Qaeda mutated still further. To survive and prosper, it needed more converts, and it needed to strike an array of strategic alliances. An additional problem was that al-Qaeda was never a political movement: it is basically an attack machine. Jihad yes, always. But the local objectives involved could not be more disparate - from Chechens fighting Russian occupation to Iraqis fighting US occupation.

Franchising, anyway, worked wonders. As more people in more countries - and the Bush administration - started blaming al-Qaeda for any attack, the desired cumulative effect was the same: al-Qaeda is everywhere.

Local al-Qaeda alliances now include everybody and his neighbor: Jemaah Islamiya in Indonesia (the Bali bombing) and Southeast Asia; warlord Gulbuddin Hekmatyr's jihadis in southeastern Afghanistan; the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (responsible for the Tashkent bombings in July); and perhaps even the mysterious, one-legged jack-of-all-trades, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, configured by the Bush administration as the new bin Laden in the Iraqi Sunni triangle.

Old-style al-Qaeda might well be pulverized by the Pentagon any time. But "al-Qaeda", the brand, lives, whatever the Bush administration spin. Zarqawi is the best example: he may not even be directly linked to bin Laden anymore, and he is now the sole boss of his own terrorist cottage industry.

Like a multinational product, "al-Qaeda" suits everybody. For President Vladimir Putin in Russia, Islam Karimov in Uzbekistan, even President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo in the Philippines, "al-Qaeda" is the ideal excuse for any repressive or inept regime presenting its credentials as a full-fledged member of the "war on terror". For al-Qaeda's purposes, bin Laden remaining the supreme evil is an invaluable propaganda coup. And for al-Qaeda franchises - free to pursue their own initiatives - using the brand means guaranteed media impact.

"Al-Qaeda" the brand has now embarked on an inexorable logic of expansion - in flagrant contradiction to Bush's assertion that the world is safer. Al-Qaeda will keep deepening its alliances with ethnic and nationalist movements - with Shamil Basayev, the emir of the mujahideen in Chechnya and trainer of the Black Widow squadrons of female suicide bombers, or with sectors of the Iraqi resistance in the Sunni triangle. "Global" al-Qaeda in all these cases works and will continue to work as a sort of "Foreign Legion", as French scholar Olivier Roy puts it, a capable military vanguard that is useful for local purposes for a determined period of time.

"Global" al-Qaeda may also even profit from the fact that national liberation movements, in desperation, decide to go on an all-out offensive, improving their alliances of circumstance with al-Qaeda. The al-Qaeda brand is also becoming attractive to scattered sectors of the extreme left, because more than appealing to radical Islam, al-Qaeda has succeeded in branding its image as the revolutionary vanguard in the fight against American imperialism. The cross-fertilization between radical Islam and disfranchised Muslim youth born and raised in the West is also performing wonders: when young people convert to Islam in a dreary suburb of Brussels, Paris, Hamburg or Madrid, it all has to do with political anger rather than discovering a direct line to Allah.

A nihilistic big business
At the Republican convention, while the Republicans were harping on September 11, Bush said the Iraq war was "his" war, part of a mission from God to bring freedom to the repressed. "Terrorists hate America because they hate freedom." Wrong: "terrorists" (in fact national resistance movements) hate America because America's imperial policies are the antithesis of freedom.

As nihilistic as it may be, al-Qaeda, from a business point of view, is a major success: three years after September 11, it is a global brand and a global movement. The Middle East, in this scenario, is just a regional base station. This global brand does not have much to do with Islam. But it has everything to do with the globalization of anti-imperialism. And the empire, whatever its definition, has its center in Washington. Bin Laden is laughing: Bush's crusade has legitimized an obscure sect as a worldwide symbol of political revolt. How could bin Laden not vote for Bush?

(Copyright 2004 Asia Times Online Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact [email protected] for information on our sales and syndication policies.)


Interesting point there at the end; Al Qaeda isn't so much associated with Islaam as it is with anti-imperialism. Makes a lot more sense if you think about it that way.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 12:12 pm
Setanta wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
... the only available alternative has repeatedly demonstrated that he would do far worse.


... it is not axiomatic that Kerry has demonstrated that he would do far worse, not even once, let alone repeatedly.


You are correct. It isn't axiomatic! But it is repeatedly demonstrated. But then I never said it was axiomatic, did I? Rolling Eyes

Kerry has repeatedly demonstrated that he pursues his objectives via a relentless use of slander and libel. In one outrageous case, his repeated slander and libel of his fellow veterans contributed to the abandonment of millions of innocent Vietnamese to communist slaughter. He's well on his way to employing the same approach now to achieve a comparable result in Iraq, while getting himself elected president.

Kerry has repeatedly demonstrated that he is not competent in economics. A major contribution to the prosperity of the private economy is private investment in the private economy. The consequence of reducing the surplus income of the wealthy via higher tax rates on their income than on the income of the rest of us, is a reduced rate of investment in the private economy. I'd be ecstatic, for example, if Gates and Dell doubled their wealth, because I understand they cannot do that without also doubling employment in their companies.

Kerry has repeatedly demonstrated that he is not competent to strengthen the ability of the US to protect Americans from terrorism. He has repeatedly opposed financing of new weapons systems. He would delegate much of the function of protecting Americans against terrorism to a failing UN: an organization that repeatedly defrauded the Oil for Food program; repeatedly fails to enforce its own resolutions; repeatedly fails to resist the genocide in Rawanda and Sudan; and repeatedly fails to assist in the curtailment of AIDS in Africa.

Setanta wrote:
Your partisan slip is showing, you might want to dig under your skirt and hike it up . . .

Laughing Laughing
Laughing Laughing

I'm partisan Laughing , but you are neutral Laughing and non-partisan Laughing .
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 12:16 pm
In one outrageous case, his repeated slander and libel of his fellow veterans contributed to the abandonment of millions of innocent Vietnamese to communist slaughter. <---- Icann

This right here sums up just how wrong you are about so many things.

You do realize that statements like that rob your opinions of validity? I know you like to break down and analyze comments on here, and you generally do a pretty good job supporting your view, but when you make outrageous statements like that, people tend to write ya off. And I know you don't want that.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 12:19 pm
of course he does one eye, its just a big game to him
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 12:39 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
In one outrageous case, his repeated slander and libel of his fellow veterans contributed to the abandonment of millions of innocent Vietnamese to communist slaughter.


This right here sums up just how wrong you are about so many things. ...


I infer you think this statement is unsupportable. Why?

It is a fact that the repeated slander and libel by Kerry and his fellow travelers of American Vietnam Veterans did in deed help discourage a continued and determined effort on the part of the US to defeat the Vietnamese Communists. The Vietnamese Communists themselves among others have made that claim.

It is a fact that our pull out of Vietnam did abandon millions of innocent Vietnames to Communist slaughter.

Your reaction to this assertion of mine "sums up just how wrong you are about so many things."

It's long past time for you to open your other eye.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 12:49 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
of course he does one eye, its just a big game to him


Wrong again. For me it's a serious matter of survival -- yours and those you love, as well as mine and those I love.

At some point in your future you will have to face up to the reality that one factually supported argument exceeds the total merit of a million vacuous accusations.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 12:56 pm
well I'm sure you're right ican

better now?
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 01:19 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Kerry has repeatedly demonstrated that he pursues his objectives via a relentless use of slander and libel. In one outrageous case, his repeated slander and libel of his fellow veterans contributed to the abandonment of millions of innocent Vietnamese to communist slaughter.

Kerry has repeatedly demonstrated that he is not competent in economics. .... if Gates and Dell doubled their wealth, because I understand they cannot do that without also doubling employment in their companies.

Kerry has repeatedly demonstrated that he is not competent to strengthen the ability of the US to protect Americans from terrorism. He has repeatedly opposed financing of new weapons systems.


He would delegate much of the function of protecting Americans against terrorism to a failing UN: ....repeatedly fails to resist the genocide in Rawanda and Sudan; and repeatedly fails to assist in the curtailment of AIDS in Africa.



the first comment is one that i/we just keep hearing despite the facts. but one more time. kerry, at the congressional interview, related things that vets "had told him of", not what he had personally seen.

ya know, i started to paste an image from the my lai massacre here. but frankly, the o'neills of the world, despite knowing better, would claim it was a forgery. so it would be gratuitously violent.

second comment... what evidence are you pointing at that kerry is incompetent in economics? if you are reffing the "taxachussetts" moniker, the following may help clear that up a little;

"Massachusetts, ridiculed in the 1980s as "Taxachusetts" fell to 40th in 2002, as its residents only paid $96 in taxes for every $1,000 of income, according to a Boston-based business group. On a gauge where a low ranking is positive, that was a marked improvement from a decade ago when Massachusetts came in 25th."

tax ratings

third comment... now, this one really is republican spin (oh, and zell buys off on it too). when you go through the list, many are items that were suggested for cuts by bush 41 (see 1992 sotu) and others were actually pushed for by cheney at the time. the idea was that with the "fall of communism" ( which was not true then and is not now), the american budget could reap a peace dividend by doing away with weapons expenditures that were no longer needed. is the alledged "gutting of the intelligence budget" that gets so much sqawk on HANNITY what you mean? that is typical hannity nonsense. the cut that kerry supported was 3/4 of 1% of the entire budget. or about 1.6 billion over 5 years. hannity, as usual, ummm, mispeaks on this and i've heard him improperly say it is a 300 billion cut.

interestingly, the republican sponsored bill, that agreed to 2/3 of the cut proposed by the kerry supported bill, was passed. i think, but would have to look it up, that it was introduced by spector, who cited the intent as recovery of overbudgeting and wasted spending $$.

fourthly... the failing u.n. ? the oil for food program? interesting in light of how the u.s. fails or drags it's feet on paying it's member dues (though we aren't alone in this). and the self-righteous outrage over a couple of corrupt officials out of an entire organization is kind of humorous when shrilled by those that have made halliburton/kbr and bechtel household words.
rwanda and sudan... do you hear any rightwingers crying to send american troops to either place? i don't. but we all sure heard them bitching and complaining about bosnia. some still do, as a matter of fact. usually in the middle of some tirade about "the damned clintons".

i really get a pretty good laugh from all the anti- u.n. stuff. what happened to "the new world order"? replaced (or was it what 41 really meant) by pnac. the u.n. gets misrepresented as a "world government". wrong, or so i believe. as i understand it, the u.n. is a neutral ground where the world's diplomats can assemble to discuss, and hopefully solve, problems. as such, the u.n. only has as much power to enforce their resolutions as members dues, donations and supplied resources allow them.

so while i understand that the right wing views the u.n. as a threat to america's leadership, it's a silly argument at this juncture.

in order to be a world leader you have to have followers; we have fewer everyday now.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 01:30 pm
dt on me

dwyb

dont waste your breath

that is (and with the greatest of respect ican) dont bother to reply to ican posts, its really not worth it
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 01:44 pm
Quote:
It is a fact that our pull out of Vietnam did abandon millions of innocent Vietnames to Communist slaughter.


No, you see, Icann, that isn't a fact.

Because the communists weren't going to slaughter anyone. They just wanted to run the place.

But by using the language you do, you make it seem as if the communists are the devil. They aren't the devil. They just don't agree with America on how things should get done.

The reason we pulled out of Vietnam wasn't John Kerry, it was the fact that it was a poorly run war, with no definable objectives and questionable support internationally, using a large amount of drafted troops who didn't want to be there.

When you make statements using language like that, you set yourself up as just another demagogue. Which isn't what you want, I know that! You make reasonably well constructed arguments (though your acceptance of certain evidence as solid fact and stubborn refusal to see how tenuous some connections are could use some work), don't ruin them with pointless rhetoric such as this.

Clean it up, get realistic. And btw: I don't want to have a debate about communism and why we had to stop it, it's not the topic of this thread...

Cheers

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 01:47 pm
wasting your time one eye
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 03:56 pm
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
... the bush concept of "a generational war on terror" doesn't even begin to hold a candle to what osama and his followers believe. for them, this war started around 1400 years ago. for them, it will be won when you, me and every living person on the planet is either groveling on the ground like a dog before allah or, unconverted, dead.


I recopied this comment of yours here because I wish you to consider it the context of my remarks that follow. This is the problem you and I both think needs to be solved for the sake of the survival of us and our posterity.


DontTreadOnMe wrote:
... the first comment is one that i/we just keep hearing despite the facts. but one more time. kerry, at the congressional interview, related things that vets "had told him of", not what he had personally seen.


In my video tape copy, Kerry claimed these things actually happened. I don't doubt for a minute that he never actually saw them happen. I think the same is true for what Kerry claims he did himself. Kerry himself stated earlier this year that his remarks "may have been a little over the top."

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
... second comment... what evidence are you pointing at that kerry is incompetent in economics?


I gave it. Please review the entire comment. One does not increase investment by reducing the funds that would otherwise be available for investment.

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
...third comment... now, this one really is republican spin (oh, and zell buys off on it too). when you go through the list, many are items that were suggested for cuts by bush 41 (see 1992 sotu) and others were actually pushed for by cheney at the time.


I'm talking about all that Kerry pushed for subsequent to Clinton's inauguration in 1992 and after the first World Trade al Qaeda sponsored bombing and also after other Al Qaeda attacks on Americans.

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
... fourthly... the self-righteous outrage over a couple of corrupt officials out of an entire organization is kind of humorous when shrilled by those that have made halliburton/kbr and bechtel household words.


I merely used this as a piece of evidence of the UN's incompetence to do what Kerry (incompetently) wants the UN to do. I did not express any self-rigteous outrage about it. Also, I didn't make halliburton/kbr and bechtel household words. The neo-Democrats did that by failing to recognize there are only four companies in the world adequately competent to do the oil production reconstruction and repair work required on the scale it was/is required. These two are domestic companies. The French resent those two companies because we didn't select one of their companies too.

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
... rwanda and sudan... do you hear any rightwingers crying to send american troops to either place? i don't. but we all sure heard them bitching and complaining about bosnia. some still do, as a matter of fact. usually in the middle of some tirade about "the damned clintons".


What's this got to do with the UN's competence to do what Kerry wants it to do?

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
... the u.n. gets misrepresented as a "world government". wrong, or so i believe. as i understand it, the u.n. is a neutral ground where the world's diplomats can assemble to discuss, and hopefully solve, problems. as such, the u.n. only has as much power to enforce their resolutions as members dues, donations and supplied resources allow them.


True on both counts. However, my point is the UN is not competent to solve the problem you described above. You are correct that it never was intended to be.

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
... so while i understand that the right wing views the u.n. as a threat to america's leadership, it's a silly argument at this juncture. in order to be a world leader you have to have followers; we have fewer everyday now.


I don't view the UN as a threat. I view the perception that the UN is or should be a world government as a threat.

I don't want the US to be a political world leader. I never have. I do want the US to be a much better example of how a country can secure the liberty of its people. Also, I want the US to be a more consistent advocate for turning this entire world into a freetrade zone with the same/uniform rules for every sovereign nation in this world.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 04:28 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
It is a fact that our pull out of Vietnam did abandon millions of innocent Vietnames to Communist slaughter.


No, you see, Icann, that isn't a fact.


Yes it is.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Because the communists weren't going to slaughter anyone. They just wanted to run the place.

But by using the language you do, you make it seem as if the communists are the devil. They aren't the devil. They just don't agree with America on how things should get done.


Grrrr! I detest the pretense that one can truly know the intentions of another. I'm not writing about their intentions; I'm writing about their actual deeds. After the US pulled out of Vietnam, the Vietnamese Communists murdered millions of their own innocent people.

Communism and its followers past and present are the best example of which I'm currently aware of that saying, "The path to hell is paved with good intentions." Communists killed millions of innocents in Russia, China, Vietnam, and Cambodia all in the name of improving the human condition.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
The reason we pulled out of Vietnam wasn't John Kerry, it was the fact that it was a poorly run war, with no definable objectives and questionable support internationally, using a large amount of drafted troops who didn't want to be there.


I agree this was the primary reason. However, that reason was supplemented by the slanders and libels of Kerry and others.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
When you make statements using language like that, you set yourself up as just another demagogue.


I often appreciate your advice, but not this time. This time, I advise you to open both your eyes to what actually happened and not what the Rather et al media promoted over the last 35 years. I recommend you start with a study of www.Britannica.com . If you haven't already subscribed, I recommend you do so. The annual fee is less than $70 per year. Then look at other sources to confirm or deny what you read there.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
And btw: I don't want to have a debate about communism and why we had to stop it, it's not the topic of this thread...


Since it is relevant to a determination of the competence of John Kerry, it deserved/deserves to be discussed here.

Smile
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 05:10 pm
www.britannica.com

History of Vietnam

...

Withdrawal of American troops (pg. 54)

Finally, in January 1973 a peace treaty was signed by the United States and all three Vietnamese parties. It provided for the complete withdrawal of U.S. troops within 60 days and created a political process for the peaceful resolution of the conflict in the south. Nothing was said, however, about the presence of more than 100,000 North Vietnamese troops in South Vietnam. The signing of the Paris Agreement did not bring an end to the fighting in Vietnam. The Saigon regime made a determined effort to eliminate the communist forces remaining in the south, while northern leaders continued to strengthen their own military forces in preparation for a possible future confrontation. By late 1974 Hanoi had decided that victory could be achieved only through armed struggle, and early the next year North Vietnamese troops launched a major offensive against the south. Saigon's forces retreated in panic and disorder, and President Thieu ordered the abandonment of several northern provinces. Thieu's effort to stabilize the situation was too late, however, and on April 30, 1975, the communists entered Saigon in triumph. The Second Indochina War was finally at an end.

The Socialist Republic of Vietnam (pg. 55)

Following the communist victory, Vietnam remained theoretically divided until July 2, 1976, when the Socialist Republic of Vietnam was officially proclaimed, with its capital at Hanoi. Vietnam at peace faced formidable problems. In the south alone, millions of people had been made homeless by the war, and more than one-seventh of the population had been killed or wounded[emphasis added]; the costs in the north were probably as high or higher. Plans to reconstruct the country called for the expansion of industry in the north and of agriculture in the south. Within two years of the communist victory, however, it became clear that Vietnam would face major difficulties in realizing its goals.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2004 04:24 am
Interesting Ican that you would rather post articles about a war America lost 30 years ago than address the subject of this thread, which is the war America is losing today.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=911381#911381
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2004 05:59 am
Headsup ....... good program on c-span's Washington journal .... .justt underway
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2004 06:14 am
NYT - Sept 16th:

(Full article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/16/politics/16intel.html?th )


"U.S. Intelligence Shows Pessimism on Iraq's Future


By DOUGLAS JEHL

Published: September 16, 2004


WASHINGTON, Sept. 15 - A classified National Intelligence Estimate prepared for President Bush in late July spells out a dark assessment of prospects for Iraq, government officials said Wednesday.

The estimate outlines three possibilities for Iraq through the end of 2005, with the worst case being developments that could lead to civil war, the officials said. The most favorable outcome described is an Iraq whose stability would remain tenuous in political, economic and security terms.


"There's a significant amount of pessimism," said one government official who has read the document, which runs about 50 pages. The officials declined to discuss the key judgments - concise, carefully written statements of intelligence analysts' conclusions - included in the document.

The intelligence estimate, the first on Iraq since October 2002, was prepared by the National Intelligence Council and was approved by the National Foreign Intelligence Board under John E. McLaughlin, the acting director of central intelligence. Such estimates can be requested by the White House or Congress, but this one was initiated by the intelligence council under George J. Tenet, who stepped down as director of central intelligence on July 9, the government officials said.

As described by the officials, the pessimistic tone of the new estimate stands in contrast to recent statements by Bush administration officials, including comments on Wednesday by Scott McClellan, the White House spokesman, who asserted that progress was being made.

"You know, every step of the way in Iraq there have been pessimists and hand-wringers who said it can't be done," Mr. McClellan said at a news briefing. "And every step of the way, the Iraqi leadership and the Iraqi people have proven them wrong because they are determined to have a free and peaceful future."

President Bush, who was briefed on the new intelligence estimate, has not significantly changed the tenor of his public remarks on the war's course over the summer, consistently emphasizing progress while acknowledging the difficulties.

Mr. Bush's opponent, Senator John Kerry, criticized the administration's optimistic public position on Iraq on Wednesday and questioned whether it would be possible to hold elections there in January.

"I think it is very difficult to see today how you're going to distribute ballots in places like Falluja, and Ramadi and Najaf and other parts of the country, without having established the security,'' Mr. Kerry said in a call-in phone call to Don Imus, the radio talk show host. "I know that the people who are supposed to run that election believe that they need a longer period of time and greater security before they can even begin to do it, and they just can't do it at this point in time. So I'm not sure the president is being honest with the American people about that situation either at this point.''

The situation in Iraq prompted harsh comments from Republicans and Democrats at a hearing into the shift of spending from reconstruction to security. Senator Richard G. Lugar of Indiana, chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, called it "exasperating for anybody look at this from any vantage point," and Senator Chuck Hagel, Republican of Nebraska, said of the overall lack of spending: "It's beyond pitiful, it's beyond embarrassing. It is now in the zone of dangerous."........."
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2004 06:33 am
Thx Dlowan ...... good story.


Quote:

posted by Juan @ 9/16/2004 06:48:48 AM

Sistani Insists on Elections

Al-Zaman: Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani called on Wednesday for general elections to be held at the scheduled time (January 2005). He made the statement during a meeting of the Shiite leadership held in his office in Najaf. Present were Muhammad Said al-Hakim, Bashir Najafi, and Ishaq al-Fayyad in adition to Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, the leader of the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq. Sistani underlined the necessity of "tossing out conflicts and emphasizing a closing of ranks, as well as intensifying efforts to create complete national unity in order to confront the danger that menaces the country." Sistani called on the caretaker Iraqi government to take measures to release prisoners whose guilt has not been established, and to work to rebuild the cities that were damaged by the acts of violence and clashes. He asked for compensation to be given to those harmed, especially in the city of Najaf. He also called on the government to "treat problems with calm and wisdom instead of resorting to violence." (All this according to Deutsche Press Agentur). Al-Hayat says Sistani called on Allawi to "stop the bloodbath." He further insisted on more popular participation and on "filling in the gaps in the laws governing elections and parties" that were enacted by US civil administrator Paul Bremer and his appointed Interim Governing Council.

There are rumors that PM Iyad Allawi had wanted to storm the shrine of Ali in late August, and had been displeased with Sistani's intervention to promote a non-violent end of the crisis.

In fact, the Iraqi government did let 750 prisoners go from Abu Ghuraib Prison as part of a commitment to process the prisoners there one way or another.

Sistani's quite resonable demand for elections is nevertheless among the greatest dangers facing the Allawi government and the Americans. It will be extremely difficult actually to hold the elections on time. But Sistani believes only such elections can produce a legitimate government, and he already accepted a six-month delay. If the elections are not held, and if Sistani begins to fear they won't be held soon, he may well call the masses into the streets. That could lead to an overthrow of Allawi and an expulsion of the Americans. Keep your eye on February and March of 2005.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2004 10:42 am
Quote:
The Socialist Republic of Vietnam (pg. 55)

Following the communist victory, Vietnam remained theoretically divided until July 2, 1976, when the Socialist Republic of Vietnam was officially proclaimed, with its capital at Hanoi. Vietnam at peace faced formidable problems. In the south alone, millions of people had been made homeless by the war, and more than one-seventh of the population had been killed or wounded[emphasis added]; the costs in the north were probably as high or higher. Plans to reconstruct the country called for the expansion of industry in the north and of agriculture in the south. Within two years of the communist victory, however, it became clear that Vietnam would face major difficulties in realizing its goals.


Icann,

surely you can see the factual error in this?

It states that millions were homeless and 1/7th of the population dead or wounded.... BY THE WAR.

NOT by the occupying communist forces AFTER the war.

Huge difference, as there was a ton of fighting going on during the war, and you are discussing peacetime massacres.

Tell me, how many vietnamese were executed AFTER the war was over, by the Communists? Somehow I doubt it was millions; but that's what your original comment purported.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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