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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 12:42 pm
Quote:
In my opinion, the envious are more to be feared and they are the ones actually winning.


Je ne comprends pas mon ami

What you talkin' 'bout?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 12:51 pm
Foolish question . . . it's predicated upon an assumption that your interlocutor actually knows what he is talking about . . .
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 01:02 pm
Yes, but I can still ask can't I?

You never know what will happen next.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 01:05 pm
Good point . . .

So please stay tuned
So you won't miss a minute . . .

Of the agonizing holocaust . . .
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 01:08 pm
So please stay tuned
So you won't miss a minute . . .

Of the agonizing holocaust . . .


Where did that come from?
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 01:11 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Quote:
In my opinion, the envious are more to be feared and they are the ones actually winning.


Je ne comprends pas mon ami

What you talkin' 'bout?


i think he's trying to say that there's more to fear from those who are envious of america's wealth/power/whatever than from our own out of wack administration.

and that we are getting nowhere in iraq?

oh, welllll...
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 01:15 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Where did that come from?


From Tom Lehrer (and i screwed with the lyrics a little), its his World War III Marching Song:

So long, mom,
I'm off to drop the bomb,
So don't wait up for me.
But while you swelter
Down there in your shelter
You can see me
On your TV.

While we're attacking frontally
Watch Brinkally and Huntally**
Describing contrapuntally
The cities we have lost.
No need for you to miss a minute of the agonizing holocaust. Yeah!

Little Johnny Jones, he was a US pilot,
And no shrinking violet was he.
He was mighty proud when World War III was declared.
He wasn't scared, no siree!

And this is what he said on
His way to Armageddon:

So long, mom,
I'm off to drop the bomb,
So don't wait up for me.
But though I may roam,
I'll come back to my home
Although it may be
A pile of debris.

Remember, mommy,
I'm off to get a commie,
So send me a salami
And try to smile somehow.
I'll look for you when the war is over,
An hour and a half from now!

_____________

**Brinkly and Huntley were the "anchormen" for the NBC evening news on television in 'Merica in the 1960's.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 01:16 pm
Thanks to all for your contributions in aid of my better understanding

But lets be honest, they're all shots in the dark no?

Smile
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 01:19 pm
except of course for Tom Lehrer who is like a laser in a tunnel
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 04:17 pm
My definitions

ROOTERS: want everyone to be and have more.
GREEDY: want themselves to be and have more.
JEALOUS: want themselves to be and have more than others.
ENVIOUS: want everyone to be and have less.

Who is winning?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 02:57 am
Thanks for definitions Ican, everything clear now
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 04:00 am
Wait. I want to go back to this:

Quote:
...in my opinion, Bush further destabilized what was already rapidly destabilizing and headed for another confrontation with the Iranian Mullas. Are we or Saddam more likely to win such a confrontation and stabilize the area to prevent our "groveling on the ground like a dog before allah or, [becoming] unconverted, dead"?


So, now this is new, right? A new slant on why we invaded? Saddam was about to be confronted by the Mullahs of Iran so we overthrew him to prevent the Iranians from gaining a strengthened position?

Well, that doesn't seem to have worked out either, does it? Or does anyone think the Mullahs of Iran have been somehow reduced in influence in the Sh'ia areas of Iraq.

Joe
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 04:40 am
Even evil has it's purpose Joe. While catalytic in nature Sadam served a purpose albeit an evil one.
Ask the question ..... 'what would America be like under a totalitarian Bush regime'? Are we different from the Iraqis in our commitment to 'live free or die'?
Why do we so easily forget our lessons learned?


"A totalitarian regime crushes all autonomous institutions in its drive to seize the human soul" (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 07:08 am
Quote:
Iraq on fire

The Bushites, who dominate every single rung on the ladder of violence-escalation in Iraq, have recently been systematically choosing escalation over de-escalation... And escalation is what they have got. Only a small portion of this news is even getting heard in the US.

We heard a little about the incident on Haifa Street in Baghdad on Sunday, when Iraqis crowded jubilantly around a burning US Bradley Fighting Vehicle and then were strafed by US helicopters shooting down at them from the sky. Many Iraqi civilians were killed, and many more injured. One of the injured was Salam's friend Ghaith, who went to the scene as a photog to get some pix. Salam urges us to go look at some of the pix Ghaith was able to shoot, anyway, regardless of his injuries.

If you go that gallery of Getty Images photos, you can scroll down for more and more great images, and click on each one for an enlargement.


PICS
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 07:24 am
Quote:
Baghdad Burning

... I'll meet you 'round the bend my friend, where hearts can heal and souls can mend...
Wednesday, September 15, 2004

Fahrenheit 9/11...
August was a hellish month. The heat was incredible. No one remembers Baghdad ever being quite this hot- I think we broke a new record somewhere in mid-August.

The last few days, Baghdad has been echoing with explosions. We woke up to several loud blasts a few days ago. The sound has become all too common. It's like the heat, the flies, the carcasses of buildings, the broken streets and the haphazard walls coming up out of nowhere all over the city… it has become a part of life. We were sleeping on the roof around three days ago, but I had stumbled back indoors at around 5 am when the electricity returned and was asleep under the cool air of an air-conditioner when the first explosions rang out.

I tried futilely to cling to the last fragments of a fading dream and go back to sleep when several more explosions followed. Upon getting downstairs, I found E. flipping through the news channels, trying to find out what was going on. "They aren't nearly fast enough," he shook his head with disgust. "We're not going to know what's happening until noon."

But the news began coming in much sooner. There were clashes between armed Iraqis and the Americans on Haifa Street- a burned out hummer, some celebrating crowds, missiles from helicopters, a journalist dead, dozens of Iraqis wounded, and several others dead. The road leading to the airport has seen some action these last few days- more attacks on troops and also some attacks on Iraqi guard. The people in the areas surrounding the airport claim that no one got any sleep the whole night.

The areas outside of Baghdad aren't much better off. The south is still seeing clashes between the Sadir militia and troops. Areas to the north of Baghdad are being bombed and attacked daily. Ramadi was very recently under attack and they say that they aren't allowing the wounded out of the city. Tel Affar in the north of the country is under siege and Falloojeh is still being bombed.

Everyone is simply tired in Baghdad. We've become one of those places you read about in the news and shake your head thinking, "What's this world coming to?" Kidnappings. Bombings. Armed militias. Extremists. Drugs. Gangs. Robberies. You name it, and we can probably tell you several interesting stories.

So how did I spend my 9/11? I watched Michael Moore's movie, Fahrenheit 9/11. I've had bootleg CD version since early August. (Grave apologies to Michael Moore- but there's no other way we can see it here…) The copy has been sitting in a drawer with a bunch of other CDs. One of my cousins brought it over one day and said that while it was brilliant, it was also quite depressing and distressing all at once. I had been avoiding it because, quite frankly, I cannot stand to see Bush for five minutes straight- I wasn't sure how I'd cope with almost two hours.

Three days ago, I took it out while the house was relatively quiet- no cousins, no cousins' children, parents busy watching something or another, and E. asleep in front of the air conditioner for the next three hours.

The CD was surprisingly clear. I had expected some fuzziness and bad sound quality- it was fine. Someone had made the copy inside a movie theater. I could tell because in the background, there was a ringing mobile phone a couple of times and some annoying person in the front kept getting up to adjust his seat.

I was caught up in the film from the first moment, until the very last. There were moments, while watching, when I could barely breathe. I wasn't surprised with anything- there was nothing that shocked me- all of the stuff about the Bush family and their Saudi friends was old news. It was the other stuff that had an impact- seeing the reactions of Americans to the war, seeing the troops in Iraq being interviewed, seeing that American mother before and after she lost her son in Iraq.

Ah, that mother. How she made me angry in the beginning. I couldn't stand to see her on screen- convincing the world that joining the army was the ideal thing to do- perfectly happy that her daughter and son were ?'serving' America- nay, serving, in fact, the world by joining up. I hated her even more as they showed the Iraqi victims- the burning buildings, the explosions, the corpses- the dead and the dying. I wanted to hate her throughout the whole film because she embodied the arrogance and ignorance of the people who supported the war.

I can't explain the feelings I had towards her. I pitied her because, apparently, she knew very little about what she was sending her kids into. I was angry with her because she really didn't want to know what she was sending her children to do. In the end, all of those feelings crumbled away as she read the last letter from her deceased son. I began feeling a sympathy I really didn't want to feel, and as she was walking in the streets of Washington, looking at the protestors and crying, it struck me that the Americans around her would never understand her anguish. The irony of the situation is that the one place in the world she would ever find empathy was Iraq. We understand. We know what it's like to lose family and friends to war- to know that their final moments weren't peaceful ones… that they probably died thirsty and in pain… that they weren't surrounded by loved ones while taking their final breath.

When she asked why her son had been taken and that he had been a good person… why did this have to happen to him? I kept wondering if she ever gave a second thought to the Iraqi victims and whether it ever occurred to her that Iraqi parents perhaps have the same thoughts as the try to dig their children out from under the rubble of fallen homes in Falloojeh, or as they attempt to stop the blood flowing out of a gaping hole in the chest of a child in Karbala.

The flashes of the bombing of Iraq and the victims were more painful than I thought they would be. We lived through it, but seeing it on a screen is still a torment. I thought that this last year and a half had somehow made me a little bit tougher when it came to seeing Iraq being torn apart by bombs and watching foreign troops destroy the country- but the wound is still as raw as ever. Watching those scenes was like poking at a gash with sharp stick- it hurt.

All in all, the film was… what is the right word for it? Great? Amazing? Fantastic? No. It made me furious, it made me sad and I cried more than I'd like to admit… but it was brilliant. The words he used to narrate were simple and to the point. I wish everyone could see the film. I know I'll be getting dozens of emails from enraged Americans telling me that so-and-so statement was exaggerated, etc. But it really doesn't matter to me. What matters is the underlying message of the film- things aren't better for Americans now than they were in 2001, and they certainly aren't better for Iraqis.

Three years ago, Iraq wasn't a threat to America. Today it is. Since March 2003, over 1000 Americans have died inside of Iraq... and the number is rising. In twenty years time, upon looking back, how do Americans think Iraqis are going to remember this occupation?

I constantly wonder, three years after 9/11, do Americans feel safer? When it first happened, there was a sort of collective shock in Iraq. In 2002, there was a sort of pity and understanding- we've been through the same. Americans could hardly believe what had happened, but the American government brings this sort of grief upon nations annually… suddenly the war wasn't thousands of kilometers away, it was home.

How do we feel about it this year? A little bit tired.

We have 9/11's on a monthly basis. Each and every Iraqi person who dies with a bullet, a missile, a grenade, under torture, accidentally- they all have families and friends and people who care. The number of Iraqis dead since March 2003 is by now at least eight times the number of people who died in the World Trade Center. They had their last words, and their last thoughts as their worlds came down around them, too. I've attended more wakes and funerals this last year, than I've attended my whole life. The process of mourning and the hollow words of comfort have become much too familiar and automatic.

September 11… he sat there, reading the paper. As he reached out for the cup in front of him for a sip of tea, he could vaguely hear the sound of an airplane overhead. It was a bright, fresh day and there was much he had to do… but the world suddenly went black- a colossal explosion and then crushed bones under the weight of concrete and iron… screams rose up around him… men, women and children… shards of glass sought out tender, unprotected skin … he thought of his family and tried to rise, but something inside of him was broken… there was a rising heat and the pungent smell of burning flesh mingled sickeningly with the smoke and the dust… and suddenly it was blackness.

9/11/01? New York? World Trade Center?

No.

9/11/04. Falloojeh. An Iraqi home.


Who wins and what is the prize?!?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 07:48 am
Joe Nation wrote:
... So, now this is new, right? A new slant on why we invaded? Saddam was about to be confronted by the Mullahs of Iran so we overthrew him to prevent the Iranians from gaining a strengthened position?


No! It is not a reason, much less a new reason for removing Saddam. My primary reason for wanting Saddam removed has not changed. I wanted to stop Saddam from harboring the al Qaeda driven out of Afghanistan into Iraq. Well Saddam has been stopped but others are working hard to take his place, and we are stumbling in our attempts to stop them.

My discussion with Don'tTreadOnMe had to do with other probable consequences of, not reasons for, removing Saddam.

So far the only alternative advocated here is to turn over the presidency of the US to an incompetent Senator who some hope will turn over the Iraqi problem to an incompetent UN. This alternative offers no real hope for a solution.

While the incumbent president is obviously stumbling, there is at least some hope that he may yet stumble on to what will provide a tolerable solution.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 08:14 am
ican711nm wrote

Quote:
While the incumbent president is obviously stumbling, there is at least some hope that he may yet stumble on to what will provide a tolerable solution.


Unbelievable that is a statement for the ages. The bumbling president dug this hole for the US and the only thing we have to look forward to with him at the helm is a deeper hole. When a team fails they fire the manager not give him a raise and hope for the best. Failure deserves it's own reward. A kick in the pants on the way out. You on the other hand are hoping that he will stumble on to a tolerable solution.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 09:27 am
au1929 wrote:
When a team fails they fire the manager not give him a raise and hope for the best. Failure deserves it's own reward. A kick in the pants on the way out. You on the other hand are hoping that he will stumble on to a tolerable solution.


Incredible! So to punish the president we should replace him regardless of the fact that the only available alternative has repeatedly demonstrated that he would do far worse. Who then really gets punished? We Americans do.

Masochists unite! Bah!
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 09:41 am
ican711nm wrote:
Incredible! So to punish the president we should replace him regardless of the fact that the only available alternative has repeatedly demonstrated that he would do far worse.


Incredible indeed . . . ipse dixit, it is not axiomatic that Kerry has demonstrated that he would do far worse, not even once, let alone repeatedly. Your partisan slip is showing, you might want to dig under your skirt and hike it up . . .
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 09:44 am
agreed.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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