THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

So, ummmmm, what was that movie "the Killing Fields" about?

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Interesting Ican that you would rather post articles about a war America lost 30 years ago than address the subject of this thread, which is the war America is losing today.

There you go again presuming to know someone else's motives: "... you would rather ... ".

What I'd rather do is discuss alternatives ways to solve the horribly intensifying 1400 year problem that DTOM described above. It's shall become worse than a deadly raging viral epidemic if not properly addressed and soon started toward solution. I made many attempts to do just that, but there seems to be little interest here in that discussion. Rather the focus here seems to be on supercilious criticisms of the US's stumbling attempts to solve the problem with little if any acknowledgement of the magnitude and difficulty of the problem.

After many fruitless attempts, I shifted instead to the question of which of the two presidential candidates will do the least harm in attempting to solve this problem. That naturally led to the question of relative competence of these two. That naturally led to the actual performances and their consequences of the two candidates since their discharges from the military service. That naturally leads to the observation that Bush went off to graduate school to obtain an MBA from Harvard, while Kerry turned to slander and libel. That naturally leads to the consequences of Kerry's specific slander and libel of his fellow veterans. That naturally lead to my claim that Kerry contributed along with President Lyndon Johnson to the subsequent US abandonment of millions of innocent Vietnamese to being murdered by the Vietnames Communists. I was challenged on my claim and responded by supplying the above brief excerpt from a Britannica article to back up my claim.

You are a special case. You appear to focus only on your unfounded accusation that the US is some kind of imperialist threat to the rest of the world. While one will find in most societies groups of people who seek tyrannical dominion over others, such groups as exist in the US have thus far, thankfully, been denied access to political power. The American people are smart enough to recognize a dangerous demagogue when they detect one and run him off as soon as the danger of his doing any significant harm becomes generally apparent. We'll soon see again if we can keep up that good work.

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McGentrix wrote:

So, ummmmm, what was that movie "the Killing Fields" about?

It was about Pol Pot and the Khemer Rouge in Cambodia--a problem solved by the Vietnamese invasion. Haven't been doing your homework, have you . . .

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and the khemer rouge were a communist organization.

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Which has what to do with a bogus contention that millions were killed in Vietnam after we left?

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

surely you can see the factual error in this. ...It states that millions were homeless and 1/7th of the population dead or wounded.... BY THE WAR.

Surely you can see the factual error in your assertion here. THE WAR against the South Vietnamese by the Vietnamese Communists did not end with the US withdrawal. Please reread the excerpt from page 54.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Tell me, how many vietnamese were executed AFTER the war was over, by the Communists?

Millions were killed by the Communists after the US fled but before the WAR actually ended. How many were murdered AFTER THE WAR finally ended contributed to the total murdered rather than consisted of the total murdered. Rather than guess, why don't YOU instead look up in Britannica the number of post war murdered in Vietnam?

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I don't think you are reading Icann post correctly and I am merely pointing out one event that followed the withdrawl of american troops.

Icann said:

Quote:

Following the communist victory, Vietnam remained theoretically divided until July 2, 1976, when the Socialist Republic of Vietnam was officially proclaimed, with its capital at Hanoi. Vietnam at peace faced formidable problems. In the south alone, millions of people had been made homeless by the war, and more than one-seventh of the population had been killed or wounded[emphasis added]; the costs in the north were probably as high or higher. Plans to reconstruct the country called for the expansion of industry in the north and of agriculture in the south. Within two years of the communist victory, however, it became clear that Vietnam would face major difficulties in realizing its goals.

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Oh, I read it correctly. I just don't agree with Icann's assertion that the communists 'murdered' millions of Vietnamese.

If that is the case, are we murdering Iraqis? We kill people in war. There's 14k dead civilians in Iraq who can attest to that fact.

My guess is that you would say that those deaths were part of the war, unavoidable. The actions of the communists are comprable, though perhaps more extreme.

Back to my original assertion: The communists did not, in fact, MURDER millions of people in Vietnam. They may have died as a course of the war, but according to our own standards of conduct, that isn't murder.

So don't present it that way.

Cycloptichorn

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If you're only arguing the use of the word "murder", then I can agree with you in reference to the communist North Vietnamese government, but not referencing communist actions like what happened in Cambodia. that was murder.

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ican711nm wrote:

Grrrr! I detest the pretense that one can truly know the intentions of another. I'm not writing about their intentions; I'm writing about their actual deeds. After the US pulled out of Vietnam, the Vietnamese Communists murdered millions of their own innocent people.

Communism and its followers past and present are the best example of which I'm currently aware of that saying, "The path to hell is paved with good intentions." Communists killed millions of innocents in Russia, China, Vietnam, and Cambodia all in the name of improving the human condition.

McG, you should get a job like Winston in 1984--rewriting history. This is what Ican wrote. It is a crock of sh*t. And the contention that a motion picture such as The Killing Fields, fer chrissake, supports such a load of crap is just as bad.

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When you can't blind them with brilliance ..... baffle them with bullsh1t.

ican'screed

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Surely the dead South Vietnamese were not murdered since they were merely killed by those who sought to conquer them after the US fled and before the end of the war. Ya think their surviving loved ones appreciate that distinction?

www.britannica.com

Quote:

During the Vietnam War (1955–75) there was a sizable shift of the population from rural to urban areas, especially in the south. By the late 20th century, one-fifth of the total population lived in urban areas. When the government of South Vietnam collapsed in 1975, about 1 million refugees fled the country. Refugees who left Vietnam after that time are estimated at another million, including Vietnamese and many ethnic Chinese. In 1976 the government began a plan to redistribute 10 million people of the urban population into rural “new economic zones,” particularly in the south. Between 1976 and 1986 it was reported that more than 4 million people had been settled in the new economic zones.

Two million fled? Fled from what? Surely none of those desperately fleeing in those packed crude rafts, were afraid of being murdered (oops) killed too.

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Supposition, and unsupported. However, your feces . . . excuse me, thesis, is fatally flawed in another regard.

Using your criterion, Chrisitianity is the world's all time greatest murderer. Charlemagne murdered tens of thousands of Saxons, Bavarians and Bohemians because they were "pagans." He murdered thousands of Slavs--chiefly Serbs and Bulgars--for the same reason. The Hohenzollerns and the Knights of the Teutonic Order murdered tens of thousands of Letts, and Balts, on the basis of the same contention. This list could be extended for pages. Using your criterion, one can make Christianity out to be far more blood-stained than mere Communism.

Have a rant ready for the Christians, Ican?

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Setanta wrote:

Using your criterion, one can make Christianity out to be far more blood-stained than mere Communism. Have a rant ready for the Christians, Ican?

According to you, the Christians killed thousands (actually I would readily concede, tens or even hundreds of thousands).

Facts are the Communists killed millions of innocents.

Looks like Communism wins by a factor of 10 to 100.

Which are worse, the Christians of yester-centuries, or the Communists of yester-generations? One can easily explain why the communists enjoy the bigger score. They possessed more effective ordinance (e.g., cannons and rifles versus bows and arrows and swords). You decide!

However, all that is hardly the point. The point is that the US departure from Vietnam, that was aided and abetted by John Kerry, abandoned millions of non-combatant, innocent South Vietnamese to their subsequent deaths. Also 2 million South Vietnamese, no doubt suffering from hysterical paranoia, fled Communist Vietnam, the people's paradise.

By the way, the TMM, especially those in Iraq, are currently desperately competing with both the Christians and the Comminists in mass murder and maiming. Will you or your posterity survive this competition?

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Okay, ican.

How many people lived in the than known world?
What's the percentage of the killed?

How many people lived ....

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He apparently doesn't get the point, Walter, that blaming an amorphous ideology rather than a specific individual or set of individuals is a rather idiotic stance . . .

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Oh boy! Statistics! Everyone knows how reliable those are!

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So, by implying that these "statistics" are meaningless, you invalidate Ican's horsie poop as well as any of mine you were targeting--which was my point . . . thanks for the assist, McG . . .

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No problem. I detest statistics being used by any side.

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Inbetween the 5th and 10th centuries, it is estimated that the Christian church murdered over 5 million women.

Yup, women. It was part of the effort to consolidate Europe, and one of the major resistances to this effort was the 'medicine' or wise woman who led the worship of nature religions. These groups tended to live in small villages and non-populous areas, some of which were wiped off the map by the church.

It got to the point where being from the country and being bad were synonymous in latin; Village=Villain.

That being said; this really has no bearing on anything having to do with Iraq. I just wrote it to dispell any notion you might have had, Icann, that Christianity isn't just as bloody as communism or Islaam.

Cycloptichorn

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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

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