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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 03:37 pm
HERE'S A REMINDER OF OSAMA'S 1998 FATWA

Osama (emphasis added) wrote:
Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders
World Islamic Front Statement
23 February 1998
Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin
Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt
Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group
Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan
Fazlur Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh
Quote:
Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.

The Arabian Peninsula has never -- since Allah made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this is happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter.

No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone:
First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.

If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.

Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation. So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.

Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.

All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al-Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said: "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."

On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."

This is in addition to the words of Almighty Allah: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"

We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.

Almighty Allah said: "O ye who believe, give your response to Allah and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that Allah cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."

Almighty Allah also says: "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things."

Almighty Allah also says: "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith."


No "connection" between Saddam and Osama? Based on this and much other evidence, I think they were virtually "in bed together".
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 03:38 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Our military would not be shooting back at homicidal psychos if homicidal psychos weren't shooting at our military.

It is the homicidal pyschos who are killing Iraqi innocents delberately, while in our own self-defense we sometimes accidentally kill Iraqi innocents.


Congrats, ican! This is the most founded anylysis I've read re this subject.


Shocked
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 03:45 pm
ANOTHER REMINDER OF POWELL’S SO FAR UNREFUTED TESTIMONY TO THE UN

Al Qaeda, Iraq partners in terror -- Powell Wednesday, February 5, 2003 Posted: 8:16 PM EST (0116 GMT) ... Abu Mussab Zarqawi

UNITED NATIONS (CNN reporting Powell) (emphasis added) wrote:
-- The regime of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein for years has consorted with the al Qaeda terrorist network, often using as a go-between a shadowy figure who set up a training camp in northeast Iraq, Secretary of State Colin Powell said Wednesday.

Speaking to the U.N. Security Council, Powell offered the most detailed explanation yet of possible links between Baghdad and associates of Osama bin Laden. At its center, he said, is Abu Mussab Zarqawi, a bin Laden associate who has traveled in Iraq.

Iraqi officials have steadfastly denied that they have any links to al Qaeda, insisting such charges are part of a U.S. disinformation effort to justify a military attack. Powell dismissed their denials, and said Iraq has a record of trying to deceive the world.

"Ambition and hatred are enough to bring Iraq and al Qaeda together," Powell said.

After al Qaeda and the Taliban were ousted from Afghanistan, Zarqawi, a Jordanian national, established a camp in northeastern Iraq to train terrorists in using explosives and poisons, Powell said.

The camp is in the northern Kurdish area of the country, outside the control of the Iraqi regime, but Iraq has kept track of events there by infiltrating Ansar al-Islam, a radical Islamic group that controls the area, Powell said.

Intelligence services disagree whether the camp is actually linked to Saddam's regime.

Zarqawi also has been sighted in Baghdad, Powell said. He traveled to Baghdad for medical treatment last May, staying there for two months "while he recuperated to fight another day," Powell said.

During Zarqawi's stay in Baghdad, nearly two dozen of his associates set up a base of operations in the capital to move people, money and supplies throughout the country, said Powell. "They've now been operating freely in the capital for more than eight months," Powell said.

The United States, using another international intelligence service as an intermediary, twice gave the Iraqi government information it could have used to apprehend Zarqawi and break the Baghdad cell, but "Zarqawi still remains at large to come and go," he said. "From his terrorist network in Iraq, Zarqawi can direct his network in the Middle East and beyond."

Zarqawi's group is linked to a number of recent terrorist operations, Powell said. Among them:

• In October, Lawrence Foley, an official with the U.S. Agency for International Development, was gunned down in Amman, Jordan. "The captured assassin says his cell received money and weapons from Zarqawi for that murder, " Powell said. An associate of the gunman escaped to Iraq, he added.

• Last month, British police uncovered a terrorist plot to produce ricin, a deadly toxin, and Powell said the thwarted attack was linked to Zarqawi's group. Several Western intelligence agencies have said the planned attack has been tied to training provided by Zarqawi.

• At least 116 operatives connected to Zarqawi's network have been arrested in France, Britain, Spain and Italy. The network was also planning attacks in Germany and Russia, Powell said.

• At least nine North African extremists traveled to Europe in 2001 to conduct explosive and poison attacks, an al Qaeda detainee who trained under Zarqawi has told intelligence agents.

• Last year, two suspected al Qaeda operatives linked to associates of Zarqawi's Baghdad cell, including one who was trained in the use of cyanide, were arrested as they crossed the border from Iraq into Saudi Arabia.

Members of al Qaeda and Iraqi intelligence "have met at least eight times at very senior levels since the early 1990s," Powell said. In 1996, bin Laden met with a senior Iraqi intelligence official in Sudan, and later that year had a meeting with the director of Iraq's intelligence service, he said.

Powell also said a senior al Qaeda member has reported that Saddam was more willing to assist al Qaeda after the bombings of U.S. embassies in Africa in 1998 and was impressed by the attack on the USS Cole in 2000.

According to Powell, a senior al Qaeda operative, now being detained, said that a terrorist operative was sent to Iraq several times between 1997 and 2000 for help in acquiring poisons and chemical weapons. He was dispatched after bin Laden concluded that al Qaeda labs in Afghanistan were not capable of manufacturing such materials, Powell said.

Also, said Powell, a senior Iraqi defector, one of Saddam's former European intelligence chiefs, said Iraqi agents were sent to Afghanistan in the mid-1990s to train al Qaeda members in document forgery.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 03:50 pm
You are so right, ican.

And due to your above quotes:

Quote:
Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, appearing on NBC's "Meet the Press," said he had "seen nothing that makes a direct connection between Saddam Hussein and that awful regime and what happened on 9/11."
Source
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 04:36 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Quote:
Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, appearing on NBC's "Meet the Press," said he had "seen nothing that makes a direct connection between Saddam Hussein and that awful regime and what happened on 9/11."


Sigh! We've also covered this before.

"seen nothing that makes a direct connection between Saddam Hussein and that awful regime and what happened on 9/11."

What is a "direct connection"? Is that analogous to a connection corroborated by a marrige certificate? Perhaps its merely a connection with an audit trail.

Is an indirect connection analogous to a connection establised in bed together? Perhaps its merely a connection like a secret liason wherein the couple have connections they wish to hide from prying eyes.

How do the kind of connections Powell reported to the UN differ from indirect connections?

Taken together, Osama's 98 FATWA and Powell's UN Testimony clearly imply a connection (direct or indirect) between Osama and Saddam. Based on this evidence alone, Bush would have been a naive fool to have not removed Saddam.

Now if the obsessive supercilious criticism of our military for its unavoidable but tragic mistakes were to desist, the restoration of Iraq to its pre-Saddam-Osama greatness could resume, and we need not make the same magnitude of people sacrificing mistakes in Iraq that Lyndon Johnson and John Kerry together caused in Vietnam.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 04:59 pm
CHENEY MISLEADS ON IRAQ/AL-QAEDA CONNECTION

Displaying a brazen disregard for the facts, Vice President Cheney told an audience in Cincinnati Thursday that Iraq had "provided safe harbor and sanctuary...for Al Qaeda."[1] There is no evidence to support Cheney's claim. The 9/11 Commission - which spent months exhaustively studying the issue - concluded there was no "collaborative relationship" between Iraq and al-Qaeda.[2]

After the release of the report, Cheney claimed there was "overwhelming" evidence of a relationship between al-Qaeda and Iraq and that he had "probably" seen evidence that was not shared with the commission.[3] After investigating the matter, the 9/11 Commission found "it had access to the same information the vice president has seen regarding contacts between Al Qaeda and Iraq prior to the 9/11 attacks." The commission also reaffirmed its position that it had not discovered a "collaboration-cooperation between al-Qaeda and Iraq."[4]


Sources:
1. "Cheney Says Iraq Harbored Al Qaeda," Los Angeles Times, 9/10/04, http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=3382691&l=54791.
2. "Al Qaeda-Hussein Link Is Dismissed," Washington Post, 6/17/04, http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=3382691&l=54792.
3. "Cheney blasts media on al Qaeda-Iraq link," CNN, 6/18/04, http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=3382691&l=54793.
4. "9/11 Panel Upholds Iraq-al-Qaida Finding," ABC News, 7/7/004, http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=3382691&l=54794.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 05:58 pm
au1929 wrote:
There is no evidence to support Cheney's claim. The 9/11 Commission - which spent months exhaustively studying the issue - concluded there was no "collaborative relationship" between Iraq and al-Qaeda.[2]


The 9-11 Commission first reported there was, "no formal relationship."

Subsequently, Rather et al reported it as, "no direct connection."

Next Rather et al report it as, "no collaborative relationship."

Now Rather et al report it as "no collaboration-cooperation".

Before November 2, I expect Rather et al to report it as, "no relationship, connection, or cooperation of any kind whatsoever."

Facts are facts. The relationship/connection between Osama and Saddam consisted of at least the things Powell described in his Feruary 2003 statement to the UN (reposted here earlier). Calling it informal, indirect, or even uncollaborative doesn't change that. Also, Osama's 98 FATWA (also reposted here earlier) makes it clear that a major motivation for his 98 FATWA was his rage over the termination of Iraq's invasion of Quwait and subsequent efforts by the US to get Saddam to display proof that he no longer possessed WMD.

Class, can you think of any reason, any reason whatsoever, that Saddam and Osama might not have wanted their relationship/connection/cooperation to become formal; that is, auditable? Hmmmmmmm?
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 06:03 pm
au1929 wrote:
CHENEY MISLEADS ON IRAQ/AL-QAEDA CONNECTION
After the release of the report, Cheney claimed there was "overwhelming" evidence of a relationship between al-Qaeda and Iraq and that he had "probably" seen evidence that was not shared with the commission.


if he did he did not provide full disclosure, even in a closed session.

typical of this administration.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 06:23 pm
ican711nm wrote:
HERE'S A REMINDER OF OSAMA'S 1998 FATWA

No "connection" between Saddam and Osama? Based on this and much other evidence, I think they were virtually "in bed together".


sorry ican, i disagree. what this says to me is that like most meglomanical ideologues, osama is a consumate opportunist.

he was heard on media at the beginning of the iraq invasion urging "all good muslims to put aside their hatred of the communists in iraq and fight for islam against the crusaders".

look. there is a difference. the palestinian issue is nationalist/political and islamist extremism is religious. he does nothing for the palestinians but use their problems to fan the flames.

osama, for all of his letting "fatwahs" in everyone's face, he really doesn't do anything for his muslim brothers and sisters. except con them into dying for him and HIS cause.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 08:49 pm
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
...
sorry ican, i disagree. what this says to me is that like most meglomanical ideologues, osama is a consumate opportunist. ... osama, for all of his letting "fatwahs" in everyone's face, he really doesn't do anything for his muslim brothers and sisters. except con them into dying for him and HIS cause.


Your characterization of Osama may be correct. However, the danger of his "letting FATWAHS" (I like your metaphor Smile ) is that they let enough con-gas to con enough people to scare me with their money and their box cutters. Powell's so far unrefuted UN testimony re Osama-Saddam events (no matter how one wishes to label them--they increase the threat of mass murder), is alarming enough to me to justify the US removing both Saddam and Osama, and suffering the costs (life and property) of constructing free Afghanistani and Iraqi societies.

By the way, this is news to me. Thanks. I see it supporting my position.
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
"he [Osama] was heard on media at the beginning of the iraq invasion urging "all good muslims to put aside their hatred of the communists in iraq and fight for islam against the crusaders".
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 10:58 pm
Derailed!

Icann, way to change the subject back to your usual screed.

Noone has been able to adequately explain the US position on this one for me, as there seems to be a big question as to why we opened fire on a crowd of civilians from helicopters, which resulted in the deaths of 14 people?

And for those who will say 'they were shooting at the helis,' does that make it right to fire on a crowd of women and children?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 03:04 am
ican711nm wrote:
By the way, this is news to me. Thanks. I see it supporting my position.
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
"he [Osama] was heard on media at the beginning of the iraq invasion urging "all good muslims to put aside their hatred of the communists in iraq and fight for islam against the crusaders".


but it doesn't. you see, it is once again osama manipulating the ignorance of the arab people to carry out his insanity. "die for allah". something that he is unwilling to do himself.

this is important here. by osama's standards, saddam is an infidel. it is pretty well documented that saddam, like some american leaders do now, trotted religion out when he had political trouble. to paraphrase a remark i have made here earlier; "saddam is muslim from the lips out".

saddam ran a secular regime. so, he is viewed by religious zealots, such as osama, as being immoral. therefore, the bottom line is that saddam is just as undeserving of continued life as any other infidel. but, osama, being the opportunist jackel that he is, was willing to wait till after the "christian" infidels were dead to deal with his punishment.

the bush concept of "a generational war on terror" doesn't even begin to hold a candle to what osama and his followers believe. for them, this war started around 1400 years ago. for them, it will be won when you, me and every living person on the planet is either groveling on the ground like a dog before allah or, unconverted, dead.

which is why, as tommy franks has confirmed did happen, transferring military resources from afghanistan to iraq in february of 2002 is bush's great blunder. if, that is, his real intent is to go after islamic extremism. he has managed to destabilize the sole non-theocratic country in the region. assh**e, that he is, saddam actually served a purpose, if only that in his tyranny, the mullahs didn't rule.

they say the proof is in the pudding. and as of today the bush pudding tastes pretty crappy.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 05:10 am
DTOM

I agree diverting resources from Afghanistan to Iraq to destroy Saddam lost impetus behind the war on terror.

But thats becuause the war on terror itself is a diversion, enabling America to pursue its imperial ambitions around the world.

I'm not saying there aren't some very dangerous people out there, perhaps some really believe the war started 1400 years ago and will end with the establishment of a global caliphate. But they aren't exactly being realistic are they? The current American administration is playing a game with these people, whilst behind the scenes the pieces of a much grander strategy are being put in place. [and im not saying its right or wrong, just how it IS]
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 10:04 am
Better a substantive screed than a supercilious polemic.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Noone has been able to adequately explain the US position on this one for me, as there seems to be a big question as to why we opened fire on a crowd of civilians from helicopters, which resulted in the deaths of 14 people?


I'll give you two choices. "You decide!"

1. The US helicopter crew cruely, deliberately and intentionally killed 14 innocent Iraqis.

2. The US helicopter crew mistakenly killed 14 innocent Iraqis falsely perceiving them as cruel, deliberate, and intentional killers.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
And for those who will say 'they were shooting at the helis,' does that make it right to fire on a crowd of women and children?


No!

Is it right to pretend any one thinks it right?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 10:30 am
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
"he [Osama] was heard on media at the beginning of the iraq invasion urging "all good muslims to put aside their hatred of the communists in iraq and fight for islam against the crusaders".


This supports both my position that Osama and Saddam were in bed together, and your position that Osama manipulated the ignorance of the arab people to carry out his insanity: "die for allah", which is something that Osama is unwilling to do himself.

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
osama, being the opportunist jackel that he is, was willing to wait till after the "christian" infidels were dead to deal with his punishment.


Probably! But in the meantime he jumped in bed with his declared favorite infidel.

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
... this war started around 1400 years ago. for them, it will be won when you, me and every living person on the planet is either groveling on the ground like a dog before allah or, unconverted, dead.

... bush's great blunder. if, that is, his real intent is to go after islamic extremism. he has managed to destabilize the sole non-theocratic country in the region. assh**e, that he is, saddam actually served a purpose, if only that in his tyranny, the mullahs didn't rule.


Perhaps you're right. However, in my opinion, Bush further destabilized what was already rapidly destabilizing and headed for another confrontation with the Iranian Mullas. Are we or Saddam more likely to win such a confrontation and stabilize the area to prevent our "groveling on the ground like a dog before allah or, [becoming] unconverted, dead"?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 10:48 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
... But thats becuause the war on terror itself is a diversion, enabling America to pursue its imperial ambitions around the world.


America's alleged imperial ambitions consist of nothing more than the ambition to sustain and spread civilized free trade markets in an increasingly invidious and energy limited world. However, when this whole damn middle eastern conflagration started in the 1980s the price of oil was about $12 a barrel. Now depending on what day of the week it is, the price of oil is about 4 times that. Our accomplishments are falling far short of our alleged imperial ambitions.

In my opinion, the envious are more to be feared and they are the ones actually winning.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 10:58 am
ican711nm wrote:
Perhaps you're right. However, in my opinion, Bush further destabilized what was already rapidly destabilizing and headed for another confrontation with the Iranian Mullas. Are we or Saddam more likely to win such a confrontation and stabilize the area to prevent our "groveling on the ground like a dog before allah or, [becoming] unconverted, dead"?


Just when I thought there would be no new justifications for this war...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 11:38 am
This might have been posted already, so if you know and don't want to re-read this ... :wink:

"Summary: Although the early U.S. blunders in the occupation of Iraq are well known, their consequences are just now becoming clear. The Bush administration was never willing to commit the resources necessary to secure the country and did not make the most of the resources it had. U.S. officials did get a number of things right, but they never understood-or even listened to-the country they were seeking to rebuild. As a result, the democratic future of Iraq now hangs in the balance."
What Went Wrong in Iraq


"This report represents six months of research to measure the progress of reconstruction in Iraq according to an analysis of hundreds of data points drawn from 60 media sources, 17 public and official sources, 16 polls, and close to 400 interviews with Iraqis. We reviewed data from these sources covering the time period June 2003 through July 2004."
Progress or Peril? Measuring Iraq's Reconstruction
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 11:52 am
ican711nm wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
"he [Osama] was heard on media at the beginning of the iraq invasion urging "all good muslims to put aside their hatred of the communists in iraq and fight for islam against the crusaders".


This supports both my position that Osama and Saddam were in bed together, and your position that Osama manipulated the ignorance of the arab people to carry out his insanity: "die for allah", which is something that Osama is unwilling to do himself.

Perhaps you're right. However, in my opinion, Bush further destabilized what was already rapidly destabilizing and headed for another confrontation with the Iranian Mullas. Are we or Saddam more likely to win such a confrontation and stabilize the area to prevent our "groveling on the ground like a dog before allah or, [becoming] unconverted, dead"?



well, the point i'm trying to get across is that until the us landed in iraq, osama had only disdain for saddam. it's telling that he referred to saddam as a communist.

frankly, i don't think that the u.s or any western country will win a "religious confrontation" in the middle east. might be able to occupy the region and hold things down, for a while. religion is not a political party or a remapping of a region. it is, in most cases, a core value.

although it is my belief that the iraqis should have liberated themselves rather than the u.s. getting involved, i would have to say that, if bush really felt a need to do so, it is a good deed that could and should have occured after the job in afghanistan was finished and after
more progress had been made on global terrorism.

you see, it just doesn't add up to declare that "global terrorism is the single most important threat to america" (or anybody else for that matter) and then divert attention to a situation that was not an immediate threat.

that americans were put under so much pressure by the bush administration to support a war in iraq and then to now have the whole bunch of them saying "well, uh... well we never actually said "imminent threat" is kinda b.s. actually, it's quite a lot of b.s.

it's this kind of stuff that has made at least half of the country question their motives and, frankly, their competence.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 12:01 pm
Quote:
Iraq: Signs of desperation
By Paul Reynolds
BBC News Online world affairs correspondent


It is a telling indication of the problems in Iraq that the US State Department wants to switch money earmarked for water, sewage and electricity improvements to the training of Iraqi security forces.
Attention is switching from long-term infrastructure to the immediate needs of security and stability.


Prompted by the US ambassador in Baghdad John Negroponte, the idea is to use $3.6 billion of the $18 billion approved by Congress last November to, among other things, train more Iraqi police and other forces, create more job programmes in an effort to reduce unemployment and plan for the elections in January.
Of the $18 billion only about $1 billion has been spent so far, partly because reconstruction has been so difficult given the lack of security for contractors.

The move comes as questions are being increasingly asked in Washington about whether Iraq can ever be put right.


What can be done now?

The mood among US policy makers appears to be one of digging in grimly for the long haul, while handing over as much responsibility for Iraq to the Iraqis themselves, however fragile their shoulders might be.

The more substantial one is from the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS).
It concluded: "Two months after the United States transferred sovereignty to an Iraqi interim government... Iraq remains embroiled in an insurgency, with security problems overshadowing other efforts to rebuild Iraq's fragile society in the areas of governance and participation, economic opportunity, services and well-being."

In none of these areas, it concludes, is Iraq moving towards what it calls "tipping points" towards "self-sustainability and further progress".

Security:
"Security continues to be the predominant issue, hampering reconstruction efforts on all other fronts. Iraqis are well-disposed toward their own security forces... but those forces are still not up to the task. Iraqis have little confidence in US and other international forces."

Governance and political participation:
"A largely negative picture, despite a slight boost in optimism related to the June 28 transfer of sovereignty. Iraqis are knowledgeable and enthusiastic about the January elections but otherwise remain starkly pessimistic."

Economic opportunity:
"The continuing lack of economic opportunity and high levels of unemployment impact reconstruction in other sectors, fuelling security problems and leading to entrenched frustration and anger at the occupying forces."

Services:
"The lack of sufficient electricity in major cities continues to undermine public confidence, fuelling worrisome discontent in cities like Falluja and Mosul which were favoured under Saddam and now receive considerably less power than in pre-war days. Sewage systems are worse than they were under Saddam."

Social well-being:
"[There has been] significant improvement in terms of access to education and healthcare although there has been a downward trend in recent months... The lack of a functioning sewage system has led to an increase in water-born diseases."


The CSIS report makes the following recommendations:

Accelerate and enhance training of Iraqi security institutions. Form more joint units with Iraqis in the lead. Keep US troops "over the horizon" to provide a rapid response.
Revise the US assistance programme to increase direct Iraqi involvement, especially in disaffected cities.
Reinvigorate the effort to expand international engagement, such as the return of the UN and help for reconstruction and debt relief.
Decentralise government, give more money to the justice system.
The report says, perhaps surprisingly: "Iraqi optimism and patience have somehow endured."

But it goes on: "They must be harnessed, because they could easily be fleeting."

It further says: " Iraq will not be a 'success' for a long time. Whether or not US forces are invited to leave in 2005 [when a fully constitutional Iraqi government is due to take office], Iraq's ultimate success depends on building Iraqi capacity to take the country forward."

It is pretty gloomy stuff but its thrust is clear. Iraqis must take over as soon as possible.

In another report, published in the journal Foreign Affairs by the Council on Foreign Relations, Larry Diamond, a former adviser to the Coalition and now with the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, looks at what went wrong and puts forward some ideas.

He is critical, as many have been, of the approach taken by the US administrator Paul Bremer who appeared to be reconstructing Iraq with the idealism of the 18th century Enlightenment.

The de-Baathification programme and the dissolution of the Iraqi army were two key strategic errors, he says.

Mr Diamond also favours a policy of giving Iraqis control: "The transition in Iraq is going to need a huge amount of international assistance - political, economic, and military - for years to come.

"Hopefully, the US performance will improve now that Iraqis are in charge of their own future. It is going to be costly and it will continue to be frustrating.

"Yet a large number of courageous Iraqi democrats, many with comfortable alternatives abroad, are betting their lives and their fortunes on the belief that a new and more democratic political order can be developed and sustained in Iraq. The United States owes it to them - and to itself - to continue to help them."

Eyes will turn soon to the elections in January. These at least should give some legitimacy to an Iraqi government, even though it will be a transitional one. It remains to be seen though whether that will be the tipping point or just another dismal milepost along the road.



Two recent reports from US think tanks have examined the problems and have made recommendations. They do not make happy reading.
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