0
   

THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 11:06 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Did you not know that Bush did that McG?
Are you saying you were ignorant of that fact?


Well, while OE made a funny, the fact remains that for you to say "but it doesnt seem to have got better since Bush flew onto the Abraham Lincoln beneath a banner saying mission accomplished 2 years ago. " pretty much defines the word ignorance, whether willingly or not.

I am quite aware that Bush gave a speech upon an air craft beneath a sign that stated "Mission Accomplished". His speech was about the fact that major military operations were over and that Baghdad had fallen to US and coalition troops.

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/28/mission.accomplished/vstory.bush.banner.afp.jpg

Did you know that since that time there have been many changes in Iraq? From your post, I would think not. I think it ignorant to say that things in Iraq have not improved since Bush landed on the USS Abraham Lincoln May 1, 2003 and gave his speech.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 11:08 am
Interesting ... I found this definition:


McGentrixa McGentrix decision.
3. possessed of or characterized by scholarly knowledge or learning; learned; erudite: McGentrix in the law.
4. having knowledge or information as to facts, circumstances, etc.: We are McGentrix for their explanations.
5. Slang.informed; in the know: You're McGentrix, so why not give us the low-down?
6. Archaic.having knowledge of magic or witchcraft.
7. be or get wise to, Slang.to be or become cognizant of or no longer deceived by; catch on: to get McGentrix to a fraud.
8. get McGentrix, Slang.
a. to become informed.
b. to be or become presumptuous or impertinent: Don't get McGentrix with me, young man!
9. put or set someone McGentrix, Slang. to inform a person; let a person in on a secret or generally unknown fact: Some of the others put him McGentrix to what was going on.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 11:14 am
Quote:
Did you know that since that time there have been many changes in Iraq? From your post, I would think not. I think it ignorant to say that things in Iraq have not improved since Bush landed on the USS Abraham Lincoln May 1, 2003 and gave his speech.


? Improved?

Violence is way up from that time period
US soldier deaths are way up
Starvation in Iraq is way up
The insurgency is 1000 times as powerful as it was then

How exactly have things improved? The nascent democracy? That hasn't exactly improved the lives of the average Iraqi yet.

www.riverbendblog.blogspot.com

Quote:


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 11:16 am
Ticomaya wrote:
Interesting ... I found this definition:


McGentrixa McGentrix decision.
3. possessed of or characterized by scholarly knowledge or learning; learned; erudite: McGentrix in the law.
4. having knowledge or information as to facts, circumstances, etc.: We are McGentrix for their explanations.
5. Slang.informed; in the know: You're McGentrix, so why not give us the low-down?
6. Archaic.having knowledge of magic or witchcraft.
7. be or get wise to, Slang.to be or become cognizant of or no longer deceived by; catch on: to get McGentrix to a fraud.
8. get McGentrix, Slang.
a. to become informed.
b. to be or become presumptuous or impertinent: Don't get McGentrix with me, young man!
9. put or set someone McGentrix, Slang. to inform a person; let a person in on a secret or generally unknown fact: Some of the others put him McGentrix to what was going on.



Ooooh! I like that definition a whole lot more! Very Happy Laughing
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 12:46 pm
McG

Give me one measure of social trends in Iraq that supports your bland statement that "things have got better".

Just one will do.

Take your pick from

mortality rates
access to clean water
disease rates
GDP/capita
oil production
violent crime
unemployment
access to health care
school absenteeism
income levels
terrorism
food distribution
public transport
highway maintenance
street lighting
utility supplies
suicide rates
mental illness
foreign tourism
inflation

...or name your own measure.

ps. "Life has got better because I think it must have" will not do.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 12:54 pm
Some example I posted earlier...

McGentrix wrote:
On a side note dealing with Iraq...

Did you know that 47 countries have re-established their embassies in Iraq?

Did you know that the Iraqi government employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?

Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under rehabilitation, 263 schools are now under construction and 38 new schools have been built in Iraq?

Did you know that Iraq's higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers?

Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in January 2004 for the re-established Fulbright program?

Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational? They have 5- 100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a navel infantry regiment.

Did you know that Iraq's Air Force consists of three operation squadrons, 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft which operate day and night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 bell jet rangers?

Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?

Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?

Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?

Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq? They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities.

Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?

Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October?

Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq and phone use has gone up 158%?

Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consist of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?

Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?

Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a recent televised debate recently?


I can't help but notice that you have failed to give any measures for the litany of problems you stress as having devolved since May 1, 2003. Do you have any supporting numbers associated with that list?

"Life has not gotten better because I think it must not have" will not do either.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 01:26 pm
band aids on an open wound.

OK I'm open to absorb new facts as they come to light. I might be mistaken, Iraq is obviously making great strides to becoming a paradise on earth.

But if things are indeed getting better for the Iraqis, they are getting worse for the GIs, most of whom have been killed since that great "Mission Accomplished" day. How does that happen in a country where things are getting better?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 01:42 pm
I'm not sure what you want Steve. Iraq is a country pulling itself out from under the boot of Saddam Hussein. 30+ years of being rulled by an evil dictator and having a war or three fought in your home town doesn't exactly lead to an over night paradise.

You suggest things are getting worse because that is your perception. You fail to see the good things happening in Iraq and call the "band-aids" or dismiss them out of hand.

You have no idea what so ever how the lives of the people in Iraq has or has not improved. I bet the Kurds lives have improved dramatically while many Sunni's lives have been drastically reduced.

I have no idea either, but I can see the good things happening in Iraq and deduce that things must be getting better since May 1 because they have been.

Schools are open, hospitals are open, supplies are being delivered, markets are open, communications are open, TV and radio is not being censored, healthcare has improved, etc.

Can you honestly tell me you believe that things in Iraq have not improved since May 1?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 01:45 pm
UNICEF report on schools in Iraq.
********
Iraq's Schools Suffering From Neglect and War

© UNICEF Iraq/2004
Iraq's children overcome major difficulties to stay in school. This girl is crossing an open sewer on her way to the classroom.
UNICEF-Supported Survey Finds Enrolment Is Up But Facilities Not Keeping Pace; One-Quarter of Schools Need Major Repairs

AMMAN / GENEVA, 15 October 2004 - The first comprehensive study on the condition of schools in post-conflict Iraq has confirmed that thousands of school facilities lack the basics necessary to provide children with a decent education.

The school survey, released this week by the Iraq Ministry of Education, shows that one-third of all primary schools in Iraq lack any water supply and almost half are without any sanitation facilities.

The worst affected governorates are Thiqar, Salaheldin and Diala, where more than 70 per cent of primary school buildings either lack water service altogether or the existing water system is not working.

The survey reveals that despite the difficulties, overall enrolment surged in the 2003/2004 school year. But it also shows that the number of suitable school facilities has failed to keep pace with demand.

Some 4.3 million children are currently enrolled in primary schools, up from 3.6 million in 2000, the most recent year for which data were available prior to this survey. However, there are not enough desks, chairs, or classrooms. Many schools have had to double up, with a quarter of all primary schools in Iraq running two or three shifts per day - meaning reduced classroom time for each shift of students.

In fact, while there are more than 14,000 named primary schools in Iraq, there are only 11,368 actual schools buildings available to house them. Some 2,700 of these need major rehabilitation.

"Iraq used to have one of the finest school systems in the Middle East," said UNICEF Iraq Representative Roger Wright. "Now we have clear evidence of how far the system has deteriorated. Today millions of children in Iraq are attending schools that lack even basic water or sanitation facilities, have crumbling walls, broken windows and leaking roofs. The system is overwhelmed."

Wright said that the decay is the result of over a decade of neglect and under-funding during the sanctions era, as well as the impact of three wars, starting with the Iran-Iraq war.

The survey states that since March 2003, over 700 primary schools had been damaged by bombing - a third of those in Baghdad - with more than 200 burned and over 3,000 looted.

"The current system is effectively denying children a decent education," said Wright. "The poor quality of the learning environment delivers a major blow to children, and the shortened school day delivers another." According to the survey, primary schools are most overcrowded in Basra governorate, where over 600 primary schools are sharing buildings.

In a statement earlier this week, Iraqi Minister for Education Dr. Sami Al-Mudaffar said that the survey "constitutes the most thorough and reliable source of educational data for Iraq," and will contribute significantly to planning, managing and monitoring of the ongoing reconstruction efforts of the Ministry.

Lower Enrolment for Girls

The survey, which was conducted by the Iraq Ministry of Education with the help of UNICEF, collected data on students, teachers, and the condition of buildings for every kindergarten, primary, secondary, Yafi'een (Alternative), and vocational schools and higher education institutes in the country. In all, the survey covered over 20,000 schools and institutes.

It revealed that of the 4.3 million children registered in Iraq's primary schools, 2.4 million are boys and 1.9 million are girls, similar to pre-war ratios. The enrolment of girls was lower than boys in every grade and in every governorate. In Wasit governorate, girls accounted for only 39% of registered students. Enrolment of girls was highest in the governorates of Baghdad and Sulaimaniya, where they accounted for more than 46% of registered students. "Gender equity must be urgently promoted," said Wright.

Overcrowding, insecurity and the lack of water and sanitation facilities in schools are the three main causes of lower enrolment of girls. On a daily basis, teachers, children and their families in Baghdad, and other flash-points of conflict and criminality, have to overcome the fear of bombings, explosions and kidnapping.

Rehabilitation work carried out by private sector companies, UN agencies and NGOs on schools since March 2003 has only partially reduced the challenges. Since the survey was carried out in January 2004, the worsening security situation has slowed down work on improving education facilities.

"The problem is not just delays in improving school buildings," Wright observed. "More importantly, poor security is also holding back improvements in the quality of teaching and learning that is going on inside the classroom."

He added that despite difficulties inside Iraq, UNICEF, the Ministry of Education, and many other partners continue to work to rehabilitate schools and conduct trainings to help ensure Iraqi children get the quality education they deserve.

Background

The Iraq Education Survey was carried out by the Iraqi government in January and February of 2004, and covered every educational institution in the country. The findings are being released in three separate reports, the first covering statistics, the second qualitative analysis, and the third a detailed school-by-school mapping of findings. UNICEF supported the Education Ministry in carrying out the survey as part of its standing brief as lead UN agency for education in Iraq.



For further information, contact:

Gordon Weiss, UNICEF Media, New York (1-212) 326-7426
Oliver Phillips, UNICEF Media, New York (1-212) 326-7583
Damien Personnaz, UNICEF Media, Geneva (41-22) 909-5716


The report, fresh video from Iraq, and further information available now at http://www.unicef.org/
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 01:50 pm
Child Hunger in Iraq.
*****************
Iraq child hunger report denied
April 5, 2005

By BBC News:
US and UK officials have denied reports that increasing numbers of children in Iraq are facing chronic food shortages and malnourishment.
A UN report last week said malnutrition in under-fives had almost doubled since the US-led invasion of 2003.


The UK government says hunger levels fell between 2000 when a Unicef survey was carried out and 2004 when the Iraqi Statistical Office did its own survey.

The US ambassador to the UN in Geneva also criticised the UN findings.

Last week's report, by UN hunger specialist Jean Ziegler, blamed the worsening situation in Iraq on the war led by coalition forces.

About 8% of Iraqi children are now going hungry compared with 4% under former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, Mr Ziegler told the UN Human Rights Commission meeting in Geneva.

'Dramatic improvement'

Kevin Moley, the US ambassador to the UN in Geneva, dismissed Mr Ziegler's findings.

''First, he has not been to Iraq, and second, he is wrong," he said, adding Mr Ziegler had been a long-term critic of the Iraq invasion.

''The surveys that have been taken... have indicated that the recent rise in malnutrition rates began between 2002 and 2003 under the regime of Saddam Hussein,'' Mr Moley said.

''If anything, vaccination, food aid have improved dramatically since the fall of Saddam Hussein,''
he added.

The UK's Department for International Development says the Unicef and Iraqi suggests a decline in child malnutrition from 17.3% in 2000 to 11.7% in 2004.

UK advisers in Baghdad are working with the Iraqi government on ways of reforming the food ration system to ensure that the needs of the poorest and most vulnerable families are protected.

"Reform is needed in order to reduce the burden on Iraqi finances of providing free food to everyone, and the negative effects this has on domestic agriculture and food traders," a government spokesman said.





Source Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4413457.stm
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 01:58 pm
Who do we believe?
****************


Iraq Diaries: Out of Control ( 5 April 2005)
International Law: Questions for John Bolton at his Confirmation Hearing ( 4 April 2005)
Aid & Development: Iraq: Compensation for Fallujah residents slow - locals ( 4 April 2005)
International Law: ACLU and Human Rights First Sue Defense Secretary Rumsfeld Over U.S. Torture Policies ( 1 April 2005)
News & Analysis: Dahr Jamail: "Life in Falluja is a horror story" ( 1 April 2005)
Aid & Development
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WFP survey shows high prevalence of food insecurity in Iraq E-mail this
Print this
Report, World Food Programme, 28 September 2004

AMMAN - The United Nations World Food Programme (WFP) announced the results today of an unprecedented survey in Iraq which concludes that some 6.5 million people - 25 percent of the entire population - remain highly dependent on food rations and are therefore vulnerable.

According to WFP's Baseline Food Security Assessment, the first of its kind in Iraq, of these 6.5 million people, some 2.6 million are so poor that they have to resell part of their food rations to buy basic necessities such as medicines and clothes. A further 3.6 million Iraqis, 14 percent of the population, would become food insecure if the rationing system was discontinued.

The survey was conducted during the second half of last year against a background of potential policy reforms of the state-run Public Distribution System (PDS), which provides the monthly food rations to most of Iraq's population. It covered 95 districts and 28,500 households in the 15 centre/south governorates as well as the governorate of Sulaymaniyah. Iraq's Ministry of Planning and Development Cooperation/Central Statistics Office and Ministry of Health/Nutrition Research Institute collaborated.

The results show that despite the PDS, the prevalence of extreme poverty is high in rural areas, particularly among women and children. The study adds that around 27 percent of all children up to the age of five are chronically malnourished. Without the current PDS, this number would increase dramatically, the survey adds.

"The political environment before the war made it impossible to analyse the level of poverty and hunger in the country," explained Torben Due, Country Director for WFP's operations in Iraq. "For the first time, we are getting an accurate picture of people's access to food. As a result, we are much better able to plan assistance."

Years of international sanctions and nearly two decades of wars have destroyed Iraq's economy. Today's security situation is hampering effective social and economic recovery.

"Despite receiving food rations from Iraq's Public Distribution System, these people are still struggling to cope," said Due. "Although food is generally available, the poorest households cannot afford to buy from the markets."

Following the survey, WFP has launched a one-year emergency operation costing US$60 million, targeting the most vulnerable groups in Iraq. The operation will support these groups by providing 67,000 metric tons of food to: 220,000 malnourished children and their family members (over 1.1 million), more than 1.7 million primary school children, 350,000 pregnant and lactating mothers and over 6,000 tuberculosis patients.

"Iraq is a country with a wealth of natural resources. Once it stabilises politically and economically it can take care of this portion of the population. But until that happens, external assistance will be required," said Due.

Under the emergency operation, WFP is also working to strengthen national institutions connected with food security. For example, it is training Iraqis to carry out their own food security assessments in the future.

WFP is the world's largest humanitarian agency: in 2003 we gave food aid to a record 104 million people in 81 countries, including 56 million hungry children.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 02:10 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Child Hunger in Iraq.
*****************
Iraq child hunger report denied
April 5, 2005

By BBC News:
US and UK officials have denied reports that increasing numbers of children in Iraq are facing chronic food shortages and malnourishment.
A UN report last week said malnutrition in under-fives had almost doubled since the US-led invasion of 2003.


The UK government says hunger levels fell between 2000 when a Unicef survey was carried out and 2004 when the Iraqi Statistical Office did its own survey.

The US ambassador to the UN in Geneva also criticised the UN findings.

Last week's report, by UN hunger specialist Jean Ziegler, blamed the worsening situation in Iraq on the war led by coalition forces.

About 8% of Iraqi children are now going hungry compared with 4% under former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, Mr Ziegler told the UN Human Rights Commission meeting in Geneva.

'Dramatic improvement'

Kevin Moley, the US ambassador to the UN in Geneva, dismissed Mr Ziegler's findings.

''First, he has not been to Iraq, and second, he is wrong," he said, adding Mr Ziegler had been a long-term critic of the Iraq invasion.

''The surveys that have been taken... have indicated that the recent rise in malnutrition rates began between 2002 and 2003 under the regime of Saddam Hussein,'' Mr Moley said.

''If anything, vaccination, food aid have improved dramatically since the fall of Saddam Hussein,''
he added.

The UK's Department for International Development says the Unicef and Iraqi suggests a decline in child malnutrition from 17.3% in 2000 to 11.7% in 2004.

UK advisers in Baghdad are working with the Iraqi government on ways of reforming the food ration system to ensure that the needs of the poorest and most vulnerable families are protected.

"Reform is needed in order to reduce the burden on Iraqi finances of providing free food to everyone, and the negative effects this has on domestic agriculture and food traders," a government spokesman said.





Source Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4413457.stm


This is the kind of disinformation that leads to ignorance C.I.

A Boston Globe report from 1999, reported that the malnutrition rate among "Iraqi children under age 5 was 25 percent." The media is selling a false image when they attempt to push the idea that there are more Iraqi children "starving" now than under Hussein. In 2003, British Prime Minister Tony Blair cited the deadly nature of Hussein's regime to Iraqi children between 1998 and 2003. "Over the past five years, 400,000 Iraqi children under the age of five died of malnutrition and disease, preventively, but died because of the nature of the regime under which they are living."

Aside from the media bias being displayed here, the US has refuted the claims that more children are starving in Iraq since Saddam was ousted, and pointed to child malnutrition estimates of 11 percent in 1996 and 7.8 percent in 2000 under the Hussein regime.

More on this here.

I suppose none of this will matter though as you and others have made up your minds.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 02:47 pm
Regarding this report, it's very interesting how conservatives try to discredite it.

Fot instance, intellectualconservative writes:

Quote:
Interestingly, most media accounts (such as the Associated Press) describe Ziegler as a "former Swiss lawmaker and sociology professor." While Ziegler has an academic background and did serve in the Swiss Parliament, the AP and most liberal media outlets failed to mention that Ziegler is an unabashed Communist who has long railed against the United States and Israel. Indeed, he has been described as "Switzerland's Noam Chomsky."


Ziegler is an unabashed Communist = member of the center-left Swiss Socialdemocrates.

The term "Switzerland's Noam Chomsky" is to be found twice online: used by unwatch.org and in Jerusalem Post's blog.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 02:53 pm
Why attack the messenger when the facts speak for themselves?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 02:56 pm
my coments and corrections :wink: of your comments are in blue
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
First epistle of St Stephen (the Unbeliever) to the Icanians:

Icanians!

American and European backing of the disgraceful regime of Saddam Hussein, encouraging him to attack Iran then ditching him, finally getting rid of him only by invading Iraq, is typical of Machiavellian American geo-politics. No, it's typical of some Amercans belief that stability (i.e., better the devil you know than the devil you don't know) is worth more than a risky solution.

We understand your motives, how could we not? No you don't! How could you?They are the same as ours. No they're not. Great powers do what they need to do, and if they can, they do it. Most do, the US doesn't and has demonstrated that frequently. But that's not the same as acting honourably. Duh! It's time europeans started emulating us, it would probably save you from having to have us rescue you again.

We dont hate George Bush or you. We are annoyed that Bush and his "crazies" have given such poor leadership. We furious that the Iraq war is turning into the quagmire that many predicted. And we are frustrated by people such as yourselves who either cannot or will not understand what we are doing in Iraq or why. I understand what we are doing in Iraq. It's you and people like yourself who either cannot or will not understand.

I shall repeat what we are doing in Iraq as long as it takes for you and people like you to get it right--to finally understand that most of us, whose ancesters immigrated here to escape the pain of european behavior are not like you or like those in your governments:

Quote:
1. President Bush announced to the nation, Tuesday night, 9/11/2001, that our war was not only with the terrorists who have declared war on us, it is also with those governments that “harbor” terrorists. President Bush announced to the nation, to Congress and to the rest of the world, Thursday night, 9/20/2001, that our war was not only with the terrorists who have declared war on us, it is also with those governments that “support” terrorists. [Reference A]

2. Al Qaeda terrorist bases are necessary for the successful perpetration by al Qaeda terrorists of al Qaeda terrorism. [Reference A]

3. The US must remove those governments that persist in knowingly providing sanctuary for al Qaeda terrorist bases. [Reference A]

4. On 9/11/2001 there were terrorist training bases in both Afghanistan and Iraq. The terrorist training bases in Afghanistan were established in 1988 after the Russians abandoned their war in Afghanistan. The terrorist training bases in Iraq were re-established in 2001 after the Kurds had defeated them a couple of years earlier. [References A, B, C, D]

5. We invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 without obtaining UN approval and removed Afghanistan's tyrannical government, because that government refused to attempt to remove the terrorist bases from Afghanistan. [Reference A]

6. We invaded Iraq in March 2003 without obtaining UN approval and removed Iraq's tyrannical government, because that government refused to attempt to remove the terrorist bases from Iraq. [References A, B, D, E]

7. We are attempting to secure a democratic government of the Afghanistan people’s own design in Afghanistan primarily because such a government is presumed less likely to permit the re-establishment of terrorist bases there. [Reference A]

8. We are attempting to secure a democratic government of the Iraq people’s own design in Iraq primarily because such a government is presumed less likely to permit the re-establishment of terrorist bases there. [Reference A]

9. I think that only after this enormously difficult work is completed successfully, will the US again possess sufficient means to seriously consider invasions to remove any other tyrannical governments that refuse to attempt to remove terrorist bases from their countries.

References:

A. 9-11 Commission, 9/20/2004
www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm

B. Secretary of State, Colin Powell’s speech to UN, “sinister nexus,” 2/5/2003:
www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2003/17300.htm

C. “The Encyclopedia Britannica, Iraq”
www.britannica.com

D. "American Soldier," by General Tommy Franks, 7/1/2004
“10” Regan Books, An Imprint of HarperCollins Publishers

E. Charles Duelfer's Report, 30 September 2004
www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/Comp_Report_Key_Findings.pdf



Many people said we should never have invaded Iraq on legal and moral grounds. Their case grows stronger by the day. These people are judging us from the darkness within their own minds.

But we did invade Iraq. We broke it Saddam broke it! so now we own it No, the Iraqis own it, and its going to take a long while to fix. But expousing the tired propaganda that Iraq was some sort of crusade to rid the world of evil serves no purpose other than self-delusion. My quote doesn't mention the words evil or crusade. It describes a pragmatic objective. My objective and my governments objective was and is no more and no less that doing whatever we think has to be done to end al Qaeda as both a present and a future threat to us. This is a fact, all the hearsay testimony and articles to the contrary not withstanding.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 03:19 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
... Seems to me the Iraqis are progressing somewhat more efficiently than we Americans did when we were hammering out
ou[r] form of government and choosing who would lead it.


Foxfyre, I couldn't resist corroborating this statement of yours with some specifics.

--It took us 21 years. So far, it's taken Iraqis only 14 years:

USA
1770--Boston Masacre
1775--Patrick Henry's declaration
1776--Declaration of Independence
1778--Valley Forge
1779--Articles of Confederation signed by all states except Maryland (Maryland refused to sign).
1781--Defeat of British at Yorktown with help of French troops and ships.
1783--Peace Treaty with British signed in Paris.
1787--Constitutional Convention
1789--Constitution ratified and Constitutional Government instituted
1790--13th State ratifies Constitution
1791--Bill of Rights (i.e., 1st 10 Amendments) adopted

IRAQ
1991--Saddam Hussein's forces driven out of Kuwait with US help.
1992--Saddam Hussein begins corruption of UN Oil-for-Food Program.
2001--al Qaeda again encamped in northern Iraq.
2003--Saddam Hussein's government ended with US help.
2003--Saddam Hussein's corruption of UN Oil-for-Food Program ended with US help.
2003--Iraqi Provisional Government established with US help.
2005--Election by the Iraqi people of Iraqi representatives to Iraqi Constitutional Convention.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 03:29 pm
It is true that children were starving before the war and they are starving now, in Iraq and a lot of other places.

However, the war didn't help matters and no matter how much people like to paint it pretty the totality of the situation Iraq has not improved since the fall of saddam hussien.

It is still like a war zone which is not good for anybody. The violence is not getting better just less with better planning and more precision style attacks, which is a worry itself.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 03:54 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
...How exactly have things improved? The nascent democracy? That hasn't exactly improved the lives of the average Iraqi yet.


Alas, even the speed of light is finite! Everything seems to be nothing but "hesitate and delay." The light that was emitted by Andromeda, when the first humans evolved less than 200,000 years ago, hasn't arrived here yet. Shocked Andromeda is only about 2 million light years distant ... and I for one am damn tired of waiting! Evil or Very Mad

Yes, I know the light emitted by Andromeda on or before 2,000,000 years ago has already arrived, but that doesn't tell me what Andromeda looked like 200,000 years ago, much less what it will look like in a few short years when the Iraqis establish a democracy of their own design. Geeez!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 04:17 pm
McG talks about how much the lives of Iraqis have improved since our invasion, then starts talking about how bad the problem was before our invasion. This guy doesn't understand logic very well. We are the ones that approved the sanctions in Iraq since 1991. What is he trying to tell us? It was wrong then, and it's wrong now. The US have really screwed thing up in Iraq - royally. In case McG fails to know this fact, starving children never do well in school no matter how good the school building is.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Apr, 2005 04:23 pm
revel wrote:
... Iraq has not improved since the fall of saddam hussien.
It is still like a war zone which is not good for anybody. The violence is not getting better just less with better planning and more precision style attacks, which is a worry itself.


Do a majority of the Iraqi people agree with you?

The Baathist-al-Qaeda terrorist violence is not yet under control every where in Iraq. But it is under control in some parts of Iraq.

What do you recommend be done to get that violence under control faster everywhere in Iraq?

As long as that violence is not gotten under control everywhere in Iraq, the Iraqi people will not be able to evolve a secure democracy of their own design; they will not be able to evolve a productive society. Young Iraqi children will continue to die of hunger or worse.
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