THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

Sigh, it's the same old argument over and over again.

Saddam was a bad dictator who murdered thousands and thousands of people.

Yes, he had mass graves in the country.

Strangely enough, this didn't bother us here in America when we were selling him, and advising him how to use, the chemical weapons which helped fill those mass graves in the 1980's.

None of that makes the killing of further innocents justified!

The Iraqi Body count sits right around 20k right now; others have listed as much as 100k. I'm sure the answer lies somewhere in the middle. A whole lot of people are dead who were alive two years ago, thanks to either the US or the Insurgents. We should take responsibility for our part of the tragedy that is Iraq instead of the childish practices of saying 'it's all the insurgent's fault,' or 'Well, Saddam was much worse, so it doesn't matter that innocents are still being killed all the time over there.'

Cycloptichorn

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Exactly, Cyc.

I'm worried how people react, confronted by evidence that torture is a practice used by the US. They just go "Well, Saddam did it, too".

That way you can, of course, justify anything.

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Quote:

German Interior Minister Otto Schily has reportedly sought an apology from CIA chief Porter Goss over the alleged kidnapping of a German national by US agents

read on...

And we're talking about the United States of America here. What do they, what does this government stand for?

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I've asked before, no one seemed to be able to answer, but I will ask again.

Do you know of a method of war that does not involve civilian casualties?

Oh, and OE, what Saddam and his henchman did was torture. What the US did was abuse that bordered on the extreme. Not that that makes it excusable, but equating making some stand around naked with being placed into a wood chipper just doesn't cut it for me.

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Did you follow my link in my last post? What do you think about that?

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Quote:

I've asked before, no one seemed to be able to answer, but I will ask again.

Do you know of a method of war that does not involve civilian casualties?

No. Perhaps this is why intelligent nations should think extremely carefully before starting wars of aggression. We obviously did not think this through clearly.

Quote:

Not that that makes it excusable, but equating making some stand around naked with being placed into a wood chipper just doesn't cut it for me.

Standing around naked? Are you kidding?

Please actually read some of the documents in the 'Gov't documents on torture' thread and then come back and say something so ridiculous.

How about 'electric shocks' or 'second degree burns?'

How about 'bites from dogs' and 'severe beatings,' not to mention outright death? Are those torture?

Cycloptichorn

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old europe wrote:

Did you follow my link in my last post? What do you think about that?

No, you must have posted it while I was responding.

I am wondering why I don't see anything about on BBC news...

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
I've asked before, no one seemed to be able to answer, but I will ask again.

Do you know of a method of war that does not involve civilian casualties?

No. Perhaps this is why intelligent nations should think extremely carefully before starting wars of aggression. We obviously did not think this through clearly.

Quote:
Not that that makes it excusable, but equating making some stand around naked with being placed into a wood chipper just doesn't cut it for me.

Standing around naked? Are you kidding?

Please actually read some of the documents in the 'Gov't documents on torture' thread and then come back and say something so ridiculous.

How about 'electric shocks' or 'second degree burns?'

How about 'bites from dogs' and 'severe beatings,' not to mention outright death? Are those torture?

Cycloptichorn

I like how you selectively cut and paste what I wrote. And you complain about Tico playing childish games? Rolling Eyes

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Because you didn't bother? From the article on BBC:

Quote:

Hair used to verify abduction claim

Scientific hair analysis is being used to verify the story of a German national who says he was abducted while on vacation in Macedonia and taken to a prison cell in Afghanistan.

Lebanon-born Khaled el-Masri claims he was abducted on suspicion of terrorist activities, drugged, put in a plane and flown to Kabul. There, he was interrogated and accused of working for Osama bin Laden.

[more]

I'm really interested, McG: What do you think about that?

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How exactly did I 'selectively cut-and-paste' yer post, McG?

I split it up into two parts, as it discussed two seperate issues. I also left out this:

Quote:

Oh, and OE, what Saddam and his henchman did was torture. What the US did was abuse that bordered on the extreme.

But not for any particular reason. I don't even see how it would have changed a single thing I've written if I had left it in.

What is your objection, exactly? I suspect it has more to do with your inability to admit that we are torturing people in some cases than it is with my cut-and-paste of your post...

Cycloptichorn

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http://www.reason.com/0504/co.mw.the.shtml

Quote:

April 2005
The Pentagon's Secret Stash

Why we'll never see the second round of Abu Ghraib photos

Matt Welch

The images, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress, depict "acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel, and inhuman." After Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.) viewed some of them in a classified briefing, he testified that his "stomach gave out." NBC News reported that they show "American soldiers beating one prisoner almost to death, apparently raping a female prisoner, acting inappropriately with a dead body, and taping Iraqi guards raping young boys." Everyone who saw the photographs and videos seemed to shudder openly when contemplating what the reaction would be when they eventually were made public.

But they never were. After the first batch of Abu Ghraib images shocked the world on April 28, 2004, becoming instantly iconic?-a hooded prisoner standing atop a box with electrodes attatched to his hands, Pfc. Lynndie England dragging a naked prisoner by a leash, England and Spc. Charles Graner giving a grinning thumbs-up behind a stack of human meat?-no substantial second round ever came, either from Abu Ghraib or any of the other locations in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantanamo Bay where abuses have been alleged. ABC News broadcast two new photos from the notorious Iraq prison on May 19, The Washington Post printed a half-dozen on May 20 and three more on June 10, and that was it.

<snip>

There's a whole lot more in the article.

But I just wanted to point out that to McG, apparently,

blatantly sadistic, cruel, and inhuman acts are not torture;

American soldiers beating one prisoner almost to death, apparently raping a female prisoner, acting inappropriately with a dead body, and taping Iraqi guards raping young boys are not torture;

a hooded prisoner standing atop a box with electrodes attatched to his hands isn't torture either.

No, those are all abuses, a different category that shouldn't be looked at the same way. Right.

Sure, we're guilty of abuses; but Saddam, hey, that guy really tortured people, so we are practically saints in comparison.

The cognitive dissonance you must live with blows my mind, McG.

Cycloptichorn

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Doesn't matter whether or not McG prefers to call this torture or not, Cyc. I think he wouldn't like it if it was done to him. Therefore I wonder how he can justify what is happening.

I'd like to hear McG's opinion on that, nevertheless. Hope he'll be back when he has read up on it.

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Don't forget, guys, according to McG and his ilk, the end justifies the means.

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old europe wrote:

Doesn't matter whether or not McG prefers to call this torture or not, Cyc. I think he wouldn't like it if it was done to him. Therefore I wonder how he can justify what is happening.

I'd like to hear McG's opinion on that, nevertheless. Hope he'll be back when he has read up on it.

Would you rather have the American style of Abuse or the Saddam style of torture? Hypothetically of course.

you can read the full Guardian report on Mr. el-Masri here

Right now it appears to be a lot of accusations and melodrama from one person with nothing to back him up and no supporting evidence. It will be interesting to see the results.

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Quote, "Would you rather have the American style of Abuse or the Saddam style of torture? Hypothetically of course." Even as hypothetical, it's an stupid question. Abuse is abuse no matter who does it; you ignoramous!

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I've figured out a critical difference between our viewpoints, McG:

You see, to me, being slightly better than a brutal dictator isn't good enough.

We should be ashamed of ourselves if these are the comparisons we are forced to make in order to justify our actions.

Cycloptichorn

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I wish to point out to McG that sereral instances have been reported here of prisoners being beaten to death under interrogation, and tortured to death.

That is, prisoners of US and British forces.

But again, I wish we could get away from "Saddam was a really bad guy and we're not nearly as bad as him". Even as evidence emerges that we are.
Because the main underlying point is, that we have no legal or moral right to have troops in Iraq.

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'Causa Belli'

They read good books, and quote, but never learn
a language other than the scream of rocket-burn
Our straighter talk is drowned but ironclad;
elections, money, empire, oil and Dad.

-- Andrew Motion

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Your story is from January 14. The link I posted is an article from February 21.

Meanwhile the German authorities had investigated the matter and found most of Mr. el-Masri's claims to be true. The case is being investigated by a Munich prosecutor as a kidnapping case.

McG: Would I rather have the American style of Abuse or the Saddam style of torture? Well, none, of course.

How would you like being abducted by a foreign power to be imprisoned and abused for 5 months?

Like, for example: Albania would abduct an US citizen while he was on vacation in Mexico, transfer him to Mongolia, abuse him and, after five months, leave him on a street in Peking.

What would your reaction be? Honestly, McG?

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McGentrix wrote:

....

you can read the full Guardian report on Mr. el-Masri here

Right now it appears to be a lot of accusations and melodrama from one person with nothing to back him up and no supporting evidence. It will be interesting to see the results.

It will be interesting to see the results. In the meantime, I will remain skeptical about the veracity of this man's claims, while OE, Cyclops and their ilk will be convinced that the evil America has committed yet another atrocity.

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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

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