THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

I know you would just ask them "Are you a terrorist?" They would reply "nope!" and that would be good enough for you and they could go home and make more bombs, but that's not good enough for me. You seem to fail to understand that we are in a war and there are people out there that actually want to kill you and me and every other American.

But, let me add this... Have you ever read anything I have posted on A2K that advocates abuse or torture? Have you read anything I have posted that would lead you to believe I in any way endorse torture or that I agree with using torture or even severe abuse? If you feel you have, then you have read a lot more in to what I have posted than what I have actually posted.

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Once you and your ilk, Tico, can learn the simple fact that it isn't America we are attacking, but the Administration that currently runs our country, we will have the oppportunity for a much more substantive debate.

Cycloptichorn

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No, McG, what you said was "the ends justifies the means." That's pretty inclusive, and from what you've posted, we can only conclude you support what this administration has done which includes torture.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

No, McG, what you said was "the ends justifies the means." That's pretty inclusive, and from what you've posted, we can only conclude you support what this administration has done which includes torture.

Why do you hate our soldiers C.I.? Why do you refuse to support our troops while they fight for our and other peoples freedoms?

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The suspects caught by the US and sent to Egypt proves to most of us why they were sent there. We have enough pictures and first hand reports from prisoners of how they were treated at Gitmo, Abu Garaib, and in Afghanistan. Proof is in the facts, not what you "wish" they are.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Once you and your ilk, Tico, can learn the simple fact that it isn't America we are attacking, but the Administration that currently runs our country, we will have the oppportunity for a much more substantive debate.

Cycloptichorn

I realize that's what you keep telling yourself Cyclops.

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Ticomaya wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
....

you can read the full Guardian report on Mr. el-Masri here

Right now it appears to be a lot of accusations and melodrama from one person with nothing to back him up and no supporting evidence. It will be interesting to see the results.

It will be interesting to see the results. In the meantime, I will remain skeptical about the veracity of this man's claims, while OE, Cyclops and their ilk will be convinced that the evil America has committed yet another atrocity.

There is plenty of evidence, and multiple examples of, individuals being kidnapped and transported internationally for torture and interrogation. This is a CIA-led operation, and has been reported here for several months in the mainstream media.
It cannot be dismissed as "this man's claims". There have been governmental questions asked, as I seem to remember a previous post mentioned. No answers are yet forthcoming.

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old europe wrote:

Your story is from January 14. The link I posted is an article from February 21.

There are lots of later reports on March 6 - like CIA Flying Suspects To Torture?

According to a 'Spiegel' report, US-officlas had admitted this kidnapping on the quite.

(Article in the to-be-paid-archive here, mentioned in another German newspaper here)

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And exactly what would you have, in the way of proof, anything at all really, to counter that, Tico?

I suspect it is nothing whatsoever.

How exactly are you going to sit here and tell me that what I believe isn't what I believe? And that you know what I believe better than I do? Rolling Eyes

You foolish war hawks fall back on the same message every time your argument is shown to be a sham; anyone who disagrees with you, with what the Administration is doing, with our troop abuses, must hate America! Surely you can see how hollow this is... (or maybe not)

Cycloptichorn

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McGentrix wrote:

I know you would just ask them "Are you a terrorist?" They would reply "nope!" and that would be good enough for you and they could go home and make more bombs, but that's not good enough for me. You seem to fail to understand that we are in a war and there are people out there that actually want to kill you and me and every other American.

Yes, there are. Are you willing to get information before rumbling on, though? I'm not talking about terrorists who want to kill Americans. Quite obviously, this man was completely innocent.

Quote:

Maybe the whole case would have never become a heated political issue if the German investigators hadn't worked so tirelessly and thoroughly. The Munich-based state prosecutor Martin Hofmann, who at least officially is investigating against unknown perpetrators, is now fairly convinced that el-Masri isn't lying: "There's just no indication that he is."

The prosecutor has checked the basic parameters of el-Masri's testimony. The bus driver, for example, testified that el-Masri really sat in the vehicle that left Munich on New Year's Eve 2003. El-Masri was on board until they reached the Macedonian border, but not for the remainder of the trip. In addition, there's a stamp of entry in el-Masri's passport dated Dec. 31, 2003, as well as an exit stamp from Jan. 23, 2004 -- the day he was apparently flown to Afghanistan.

you might want to read this article

I know you don't care, McG. Your statements quite obviously prove that.

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McGentrix wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
No, McG, what you said was "the ends justifies the means." That's pretty inclusive, and from what you've posted, we can only conclude you support what this administration has done which includes torture.

Why do you hate our soldiers C.I.? Why do you refuse to support our troops while they fight for our and other peoples freedoms?

That's bollocks, and shows you haven't been paying attention.
And it is also an unwarranted slur on c.i.

Remember that blind patriotism has been defined as "the last refuge of the scoundrel".

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McG's quote, "Why do you hate our soldiers C.I.?" I hate our soldiers so much, I've been complaining (forever) about the poor treatment our vets have been getting from this administration. Our son is talking about going back into the US Air Force. I guess I'll have to hate him too!

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McG: "Why do you hate all Germans? Why do you want to see them all abused?"

Generalisations, nothing but generalisations. No wonder in the face of completely unjustifiable actions approved of by your government.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

McG's quote, "Why do you hate our soldiers C.I.?" I hate our soldiers so much, I've been complaining (forever) about the poor treatment our vets have been getting from this administration. Our son is talking about going back into the US Air Force. I guess I'll have to hate him too!

But C.I., You said "No, McG, what you said was "the ends justifies the means." That's pretty inclusive, and from what you've posted, we can only conclude you support what this administration has done which includes torture."

I assume that goes both ways, right? You hate what the soldiers have done, so you must hate the soldiers too. After all, according to you, I support the current administration and that means I support torture, right?

So, I ask again... Why do you hate our soldiers?

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Old Europe

You wont get any meaningful response because by definition torture is what the bad guys do, and again by definition Americans and Brits are not the bad guys therefore they don't do torture.

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McG, Bush signed the "rendition" practice into law. 150 people all over the world have since been kidnapped by the CIA and brought to countries like Afghanistan, where they were imprisoned, abused, and many of them never returned to tell their story.

How does that relate to "hating what the soldiers have done"?

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The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has confirmed that prisoners at Camp Bucca, a US-run detention camp in southern Iraq, rioted on April 1 despite an US military denial of any incident.

This has been the second reported riot at Camp Bucca this year.

Quote:

Prisoners riot at US-run camp in southern Iraq: ICRC

BAGHDAD (AFP) - Prisoners at a US-run detention camp in southern Iraq rioted on April 1, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) confirmed following a denial of the incident by the US military.

"There was a riot at Camp Bucca on April 1. An ICRC delegation was there that day on one of its regular prisoner visits and it is now following up the situation," said Christophe Beney, the head of the ICRC's Baghdad delegation.

Earlier, a representative of radical cleric Moqtada Sadr's movement had revealed that some detainees rioted at Camp Bucca on Friday after one of them had been denied medical treatment.

The Sadr representative accused US soldiers of putting down the disturbance with rubber bullets, wounding an undetermined number of detainees.

Asked about the Sadr movement's account, Lieutenant Colonel Guy Rudisill, spokesman for the US-run detention centres in Iraq, said he was not aware of any such event or riot.

"There have been no reports of mistreatment of detainees," Rudisill told AFP. "Nothing like that happened down there. Nobody is denied medical attention down there".

Source

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Quote, "I assume that goes both ways, right? You hate what the soldiers have done, so you must hate the soldiers too. After all, according to you, I support the current administration and that means I support torture, right?"

Yes, I hate what our soldiers have done that are considered torture as defined by the Geneva Convention. That does not mean I hate all soldiers, you ignoramus. Get with the program. Quit making ridiculous assumptions and screwed up logic.

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Interesting child psychology, Steve.

It's the old "God is on our side, right is with us, ours is a just cause" malarkey. We can do no wrong, not really, because we wear the white hats.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

And exactly what would you have, in the way of proof, anything at all really, to counter that, Tico?

I suspect it is nothing whatsoever.

How exactly are you going to sit here and tell me that what I believe isn't what I believe? And that you know what I believe better than I do?

You foolish war hawks fall back on the same message every time your argument is shown to be a sham; anyone who disagrees with you, with what the Administration is doing, with our troop abuses, must hate America! Surely you can see how hollow this is... (or maybe not)

Cycloptichorn

Did I say I had proof to "counter that"? Did I suggest I was attempting to find proof to "counter that"? The point I was making was to show how quick you were to jump to the belief of a news story that intimated what you perceived to be a negative connotation towards America. I fully understand you need no proof to believe the United States had performed some action you feel to be distasteful. I'm merely pointing out your propensity in that regard ... which I've done before, and will likely do again. Why do you constantly need an explanation from me regarding this?

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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

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