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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 04:00 pm
But didn't people starve to death because we (meaning the UN, the EU, the US, whoever agreed with it) imposed the sanctions?
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 04:15 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Cyclo, Isn't it interesting how people on the right can't see the obvious failings of this administration's securing our borders to protect us. We're spending billions at our airports, but all the containers (over 90 percent) coming into our country has a free pass. It boggles my mind how they are able to rationalize so much.


<totally off thread topic, because I discussed this with a friend just an hour ago or so....:>

When I grew up, people (we Europeans) somehow thought of the US as the country of freedom, of human rights, of liberty. It was the dream of many to once travel to the US. We Europeans could just fly to the States and enter freely. We would get a 90 day tourist visa on entering.

Well, the last time I went I was fingerprinted and photographed. I was questioned for 15 minutes where I came from, where I wanted to go, what business I had in the US, and the same questions where repeated again and again.

Today I read in the newspaper that starting October '05 Congress wants me either to have a machine-readable passport with implanted microchip, or I'll have to apply for a visa (not the tourist visa of yore - the whole going to the embassy business). The EU is asking to postpone the Oct 05 deadline, because we can't comply with those Orwellian measures in that short amount of time.

All this while 90% of cargo containers don't even get controlled.

What is this the US have turned into? And what's next? Or am I just paranoid?

</off topic>
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 04:26 pm
OE writes
Quote:
But didn't people starve to death because we (meaning the UN, the EU, the US, whoever agreed with it) imposed the sanctions?


Nope, because Saddam was authorized by the U.N. to sell oil in order to provide necessary food and medicine for the Iraqi people specifically to avoid any harm to the innocent that the sanctions might do.

And now we know that the Oil for Food program didn't go to the Iraqi people but enriched Saddam Hussein and apparently also his U.N. cronies who it appears may have been taking very lucrative kickbacks. The latest to be seriously implicated is Kofi's own son, but of course Kofi was unaware of the billion dollar U.N. contract issued to the son's employer.

So the E.U., the USA, the U.N., etc. starved nobody. On purpose anyway. There was plenty of money for plenty of food and other necessities for everybody. It just didn't get to anybody who needed it.

But some in the U.N. and elsewhere say we shouldn't have invaded but should have allowed the sanctions to work. Never mind that many thousands more Iraqi children would have been malnourished or starved to death.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 04:35 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
So the E.U., the USA, the U.N., etc. starved nobody. On purpose anyway.


Well, I'm not so sure. Ms Rice said (pre-9/11) that the sanctions where working, but we should impose smarter sanctions.

Everybody knew that people where starving. Nevertheless, pre-9/11 nobody seemed to be overly concerned about this.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 04:44 pm
McGentrix wrote:
That is the equivalent of what the Bush administration received as "warning" about 9-11.


No, incorrect. They were told terrorist groups were preparing to use aircraft to attack American cities.

And, some of the trainee pilots were being monitored. Including the ones who wanted to learn how to fly the plane but did not seem to want to learn about landing or take-off.

Do you want to hear me expound again how letting the attacks happen was vital to the administration in getting the country to want to wage an illegal and immoral war on an innocent adversary?
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 05:02 pm
What about expounding on the effect of the pre-Patriot Act "wall" (sometimes now referred to as "Gorelick's Wall," after Jamie Gorelick) that prevented communication between CIA & FBI?

Quote:
We predicted Democrats would use the 9/11 Commission for partisan purposes, and that much of the press would oblige. But color us astonished that barely anyone appreciates the significance of the bombshell Attorney General John Ashcroft dropped on the hearings Tuesday. If Jamie Gore-lick were a Republican, you can be sure our colleagues in the Fourth Estate would be leading the chorus of complaint that the Commission's objectivity has been fatally compromised by a member who was also one of the key personalities behind the failed antiterror policy that the Commission has under scrutiny. Where's the outrage?

At issue is the pre-Patriot Act "wall" that prevented communication between intelligence agents and criminal investigators--a wall, Mr. Ashcroft said, that meant "the old national intelligence system in place on September 11 was destined to fail." The Attorney General explained:

"In the days before September 11, the wall specifically impeded the investigation into Zacarias Moussaoui, Khalid al-Midhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi. After the FBI arrested Moussaoui, agents became suspicious of his interest in commercial aircraft and sought approval for a criminal warrant to search his computer. The warrant was rejected because FBI officials feared breaching the wall.

"When the CIA finally told the FBI that al-Midhar and al-Hazmi were in the country in late August, agents in New York searched for the suspects. But because of the wall, FBI headquarters refused to allow criminal investigators who knew the most about the most recent al Qaeda attack to join the hunt for the suspected terrorists.

"At that time, a frustrated FBI investigator wrote headquarters, quote, 'Whatever has happened to this--someday someone will die--and wall or not--the public will not understand why we were not more effective and throwing every resource we had at certain 'problems.' "

What's more, Mr. Ashcroft noted, the wall did not mysteriously arise: "Someone built this wall." That someone was largely the Democrats, who enshrined Vietnam-era paranoia about alleged FBI domestic spying abuses by enacting the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA).

Mr. Ashcroft pointed out that the wall was raised even higher in the mid-1990s, in the midst of what was then one of the most important antiterror investigations in American history--into the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. On Tuesday the Attorney General declassified and read from a March 4, 1995, memo in which Jamie Gore-lick--then Deputy Attorney General and now 9/11 Commissioner--instructed then-FBI Director Louis Freeh and United States Attorney Mary Jo White that for the sake of "appearances" they would be required to adhere to an interpretation of the wall far stricter than the law required.

Ms. White was then the lead prosecutor in cases related to the Trade Center bombing. Ms. Gore-lick explicitly references United States v. Yousef and United States v. Rahman--cases that might have greatly expanded our pre-9/11 understanding of al Qaeda had investigators been given a freer hand. The memo is a clear indication that there was pressure then for more intelligence sharing. Ms. Gore-lick's response is an unequivocal "no":

"We believe that it is prudent to establish a set of instructions that will more clearly separate the counterintelligence investigation from the more limited, but continued, criminal investigations. These procedures, which go beyond what is legally required, will prevent any risk of creating an unwarranted appearance that FISA is being used to avoid procedural safeguards which would apply in a criminal investigation" (emphases added).

In case anyone was in doubt, Janet Reno herself affirmed the policy several months later in a July 19, 1995, memo that we have unearthed. In it, the then-Attorney General instructs all U.S. Attorneys about avoiding "the appearance" of overlap between intelligence-related activities and law-enforcement operations.

Recall, too, that during the time of Ms. Gore-lick's 1995 memo, the issue causing the most tension between the Reno-Gore-lick Justice Department and Director Freeh's FBI was not counterterrorism but widely reported allegations of contributions to the Clinton-Gore campaign from foreign sources, involving the likes of John Huang and Charlie Trie. Mr. Trie later told investigators that between 1994 and 1996 he raised some $1.2 million, much of it from foreign sources, whose identities were hidden by straw donors. Ms. Gore-lick resigned as deputy attorney general in 1997 to become vice chairman of Fannie Mae.

From any reasonably objective point of view, the Gore-lick memo has to count as by far the biggest news so far out of the 9/11 hearings. The Mary Jo White prosecutions and the 2001 Moussaoui arrest were among our best chances to uncover and unravel the al Qaeda network before it struck the homeland. But thanks in part to the Clinton Administration's concern with appearances and in part to its legacy, these investigations were hamstrung.

Ms. Gore-lick--an aspirant to Attorney General under a President Kerry--now sits in judgment of the current Administration. This is what, if the principle has any meaning at all, people call a conflict of interest. Henry Kissinger was hounded off the Commission for far less. It's such a big conflict of interest that the White House could hardly be blamed if it decided to cease cooperation with the 9/11 Commission pending Ms. Gore-lick's resignation and her testimony under oath as a witness into the mind of the Reno Justice Department. What exactly was the purpose of the wall?


Link

I realize that doesn't implicate Bush, and thus doesn't serve your purpose.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 05:10 pm
No; Bush and this administration keeps telling us about our goal to bring democracy to Iraq and the Middle East - and the importance each life is (recent rhetoric). If the children of Iraq are malnourished NOW, it doesn't matter what happened before our invasion. With our invasion, we became responsible to the Iraqi people AND THEIR CHILDREN. We're spending four to five billion every month in Iraq; seems some of that money should be spent to feed the children of Iraq.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 05:11 pm
OE writes
Quote:
Well, I'm not so sure. Ms Rice said (pre-9/11) that the sanctions where working, but we should impose smarter sanctions


I'm working from memory here, but I believe what she said was that the sanctions were working to contain Saddam Hussein. In other words he was not threatening the Kurds or Kuwait, etc. "Everyone" knew the Iraqis were starving? Why then do you suppose the U.N. resisted invasion so strenuously? Why has the U.S. been so soundly condemned by all but a few for its 'illegal' war?

We can really get silly about this if we pursue this line of reasoning. I do not even pretend that we invaded Iraq for humanitarian reasons. We didn't any more than the Allied forces invaded Poland and Germany to save millions of imperiled and starving Jews. But once we were there, that's the way it worked out. Since they were there, that's the way it worked out. Funny how that happens sometimes.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 05:16 pm
Fox, the difference is: Germany first invaded Austria, Poland, Norway, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, ...... before it was invaded "to save millions of imperiled and starving Jews."
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 05:17 pm
old europe wrote:
Fox, the difference is: Germany first invaded Austria, Poland, Norway, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, ...... before it was invaded "to save millions of imperiled and starving Jews."


You appear to have missed her point.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 05:17 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
"Everyone" knew the Iraqis were starving? Why then do you suppose the U.N. resisted invasion so strenuously? Why has the U.S. been so soundly condemned by all but a few for its 'illegal' war?


The UN resisted the invasion. You note the difference "resist an invasion" - "ignore the starvation of hundreds of thousands"?
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 05:18 pm
And: Never, ever, have I heard from the Bush gov:

"We have to invade Iraq, children are starving to death". Never. Ever. Right, Tico?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 05:28 pm
As a matter of fact, after the war, the US did airlifts from Frankfurt to Berlin because they were starving in Berlin. Without that food, many would have perished.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 05:36 pm
Exactly. Without the food and supplies, Berlin would have fallen (to put it like that).

And America entered WWII more than two years after the invasion of Poland, more than two years after the war had started.

Whereas in Iraq, the war was started by the US, when the US invaded.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 05:44 pm
You're right Tico. OE either didn't read what I said or prefers to go with his own version regardless of what I actually said.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 05:46 pm
Didn't want to, Foxy! Maybe you can clarify?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 05:53 pm
Okay my point. We did not invade Germany or Poland for the purpose of rescueing starving and imperiled Jews. That was never suggested as a motive. But because we invaded, the Jews who still lived were rescued.

We did not invade Iraq for the purpose of rescueing starving Iraqi children. That was never suggested as a motive at the time. But because we inaded, the Iraqi children were rescued.

Both events resulted in unintended and unplanned good. But whether something was planned or intended or not, good is still good.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 05:58 pm
A funny twist on saving children.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 06:00 pm
I don't think starving children are the least funny C.I.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2005 06:06 pm
Got you. I agree with you, Fox, and I agree with your earlier post, too.

What I was saying is: Germany led a war of agression at that time. Something Iraq did not at all.


Therefore, as I agree with you that 'starving children' where not at all relevant in the whole process leading to the Iraq war, is it relevant at all? Should we care about starving children now? If we should, why didn't we before? If we did, why was nothing done? If we do now, what is being done now?
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