0
   

THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 09:25 pm
... and you have the right to believe that!
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 09:33 pm
old europe wrote:
... and you have the right to believe that!


Thanks, I will take that in a positive way.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 09:35 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Rex, Freedom is given by men/women.

Humanity exists either by chance or by design.
I claim the odds are way in favor of humanity exists by design.

Regardless, freedom is not given by men or women. Freedom is given by chance or by design. Freedom is secured by men and women.

Kara, my response to the article you posted is this. While I disagree with government imposing on people any religious belief, the Iraqis may not agree with me. It's their government now. However, I do think the rest of humanity has the moral right to require that the Iraqi government shall be a government that:
1. Is the Iraqis' own design;
2. Doesn't murder civilians in Iraq;
3. Prevents murderers of civilians in other countries from locating in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 09:40 pm
ican711nm wrote:
... the Iraqi government shall be a government that ... Doesn't murder civilians in Iraq;


... so easy to get back on the track!
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 09:40 pm
We are born into slavery and reborn into freedom. Smile
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 09:44 pm
teleology vs evolution
manifest destiny vs free will
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 09:50 pm
I think it is the nature of freedom... That when the boundaries are removed they huddle to the center rather than roam around freely. The important thing is to not let freedom regress back into suppression.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 10:04 pm
old europe wrote:
teleology vs evolution
manifest destiny vs free will


Oh what the heck! I cannot resist! Rolling Eyes

My teleology does not preclude evolution by design. It only precludes evolution by chance.

I claim the Book of Genesis specifies a 7 day evolution: 6 evolution-days to evolve us and 1 evolution-day to hopefully evolve ourselves some more.

I bet the 7th evolution-day is so far only a couple of hundred thousand earth-years old.

I bet a complete evolution-day is 2 billion 400 million earth-years. Multiply that by 6 and add 200,000, and you will compute that the whole evolution by design commenced about 14 billion, 400 million, 200 thousand earth-years ago (astro-physicists differ, but the consensus is its somewhere between 12 and 16 billion earth-years ago).

As for free will versus manifest destiny, I'm betting on free will because I think I exercise it by my design: sometimes poorly, sometimes brilliantly, most of the time in between. Smile

That's my teleology.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 10:11 pm
Kara

Charms strike the sight, but merit wins the soul.
Alexander Pope
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 11:22 pm
http://www.incompetech.com/authors/donne/bell.html

For whom the Bell Tolls
John Donne

PERCHANCE he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for me, and I know not that.
The church is Catholic, universal, so are all her actions; all that she does belongs to all.
When she baptizes a child, that action concerns me; for that child is thereby connected to that body which is my head too, and ingrafted into that body whereof I am a member.
And when she buries a man, that action concerns me: all mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated; God employs several translators; some pieces are translated by age, some by sickness, some by war, some by justice; but God's hand is in every translation, and his hand shall bind up all our scattered leaves again for that library where every book shall lie open to one another.
As therefore the bell that rings to a sermon calls not upon the preacher only, but upon the congregation to come, so this bell calls us all; but how much more me, who am brought so near the door by this sickness.
There was a contention as far as a suit (in which both piety and dignity, religion and estimation, were mingled), which of the religious orders should ring to prayers first in the morning; and it was determined, that they should ring first that rose earliest.
If we understand aright the dignity of this bell that tolls for our evening prayer, we would be glad to make it ours by rising early, in that application, that it might be ours as well as his, whose indeed it is.
The bell doth toll for him that thinks it doth; and though it intermit again, yet from that minute that this occasion wrought upon him, he is united to God.
Who casts not up his eye to the sun when it rises? but who takes off his eye from a comet when that breaks out? Who bends not his ear to any bell which upon any occasion rings? but who can remove it from that bell which is passing a piece of himself out of this world? No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Neither can we call this a begging of misery, or a borrowing of misery, as though we were not miserable enough of ourselves, but must fetch in more from the next house, in taking upon us the misery of our neighbours.
Truly it were an excusable covetousness if we did, for affliction is a treasure, and scarce any man hath enough of it.
No man hath affliction enough that is not matured and ripened by it, and made fit for God by that affliction.
If a man carry treasure in bullion, or in a wedge of gold, and have none coined into current money, his treasure will not defray him as he travels.
Tribulation is treasure in the nature of it, but it is not current money in the use of it, except we get nearer and nearer our home, heaven, by it.
Another man may be sick too, and sick to death, and this affliction may lie in his bowels, as gold in a mine, and be of no use to him; but this bell, that tells me of his affliction, digs out and applies that gold to me: if by this consideration of another's danger I take mine own into contemplation, and so secure myself, by making my recourse to my God, who is our only security.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 11:38 pm
New Interrogation Rules Set for Detainees in Iraq
By ERIC SCHMITT

Published: March 10, 2005


WASHINGTON, March 9 - After clashing with Afghan rebels at the village of Miam Do one year ago, American soldiers detained the village's entire population for four days, and an officer beat and choked several residents while interrogating them and trying to identify local militants, according to a new Pentagon report that was given to Congress late Monday night.

Although the officer, an Army lieutenant colonel attached to the Defense Intelligence Agency, was disciplined and suspended from further involvement with detainees, he faced no further action beyond a reprimand.

The episode, described only briefly in a summary of the report reviewed by The New York Times, was one example of how little control was exerted over the conduct of interrogations in Iraq and Afghanistan, the subject of an exhaustive review just completed by Vice Adm. Albert T. Church, the naval inspector general.

The report finds that early warning signs of serious abuses did not receive enough high-level attention as the abuses unfolded, and that unit commanders did not get clear instructions that might have halted the abuses.

The findings of this review, the latest in a series of military inquiries conducted in the past year, come as the top American military commander in Iraq has ordered the first major changes to interrogation procedures there in nearly a year, narrowing the set of authorized techniques and adding new safeguards to prevent abuse of Iraqi prisoners, officials said.

The new procedures approved by the officer, Gen. George W. Casey Jr., on Jan. 27, have not been publicly disclosed, but are described in the Church report, a wide-ranging investigation into interrogation techniques used at military detention centers in Cuba, Afghanistan and Iraq.

"This policy approves a more limited set of techniques for use in Iraq, and also provides additional safeguards and prohibitions, rectifies ambiguities and, significantly, requires commanders to conduct training on and verify implementation of the policy, and report compliance to the commander," according to a summary of the inquiry's classified report.

Three senior defense officials said Wednesday that the new procedures clarified the prohibition against the use of muzzled dogs in interrogations, gave specific guidance to field units as to how long they could hold prisoners before releasing them or sending them to higher headquarters for detention, and made clear command responsibilities for detainee operations. They did not describe the particulars of the changes, which are likely to be a main focus of a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing set for Thursday to review the Church report's findings. It will be the first Congressional hearing into the prisoner abuse scandal since last September, when senior Army investigators presented their findings.

In a brief interview on Tuesday night on Capitol Hill after briefing senators on operations in Iraq, General Casey, who took over the Iraq command last summer, said the changes were intended to "tighten up" the interrogation procedures American officials have been using since May 13, 2004. A senior military official also said the revised procedures reflected the experience military officials had gained since then.

General Casey declined to discuss any specific changes, but the report summary said the main intent was to resolve ambiguities "which, although they would not permit abuse, could obscure commanders' oversight of techniques being employed."

Admiral Church's report faults senior American officials for failing to establish clear interrogation policies for Iraq and Afghanistan, leaving commanders there to develop some practices that were unauthorized, according to the report summary. But the inquiry found that Pentagon officials and senior commanders were not directly responsible for the detainee abuses, and that there was no policy that approved mistreatment of detainees at prisons in Afghanistan, Iraq and Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.

These conclusions track with those in a draft summary of the inquiry's findings that The New York Times described in an article last December.

But the final report contains new information about the scope of the abuses and specific cases of mistreatment.

These findings are in an unclassified 21-page executive summary of the classified report, which runs 368 pages, according to a Senate Republican aide. A copy of the summary was reviewed by The Times.

The report concludes that American officials failed to react to early indications of prisoner abuse and to deal with them.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 12:21 am
Lash wrote:
I just read her "interview". (If someone else noticed this--excuse me--) But did you see that she said they practically lost control of the car??? They were swerving around??? No wonder the soldiers thought they were suspicious.

What idiots to think they wouldn't be fired on driving like that up to--and trying to pass--a checkpoint, swerving all over the road.

The wrong one was shot. She's a damn liar.


I know sometimes I say things without thinking and live to regret it; I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 12:25 am
CI

Quote:
General Casey declined to discuss any specific changes, but the report summary said the main intent was to resolve ambiguities "which, although they would not permit abuse, could obscure commanders' oversight of techniques being employed." [/QUOTE]

"A few bad apples".
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 12:26 am
Quote:
The report concludes that American officials failed to react to early indications of prisoner abuse and to deal with them.



American officials instigated prisoner abuse as a matter of deliberate policy.

Why, oh why, are people so mealy-mouthed?

Hypocrisy and mendacity.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 12:26 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Is that the only source re the Bulgarian soldier? Wouldn't you think the press would have taken that and run with it? I have to think this story and its 'anonymous source' are not credible unless substantiated elsewhere.


Well, there have been press releases, from the Multi-National Forces, and I have posted them here.
There have been press conferences and official Bulgarian demands - I didn't and don't post them, because no-one of you reads them, understands them or cares about them.


Although the press releases by the Multi-National Forces are published by US-American soldiers Sad

Nevertheless, the first original press release again:

Quote:
CAMP ECHO, Iraq - A 3rd Battle Group Bulgarian Soldier was killed by machine gun fire while on patrol about 60 kilometers southeast of Ad Diwanyah about 8 p.m., March 4.

Seriously wounded during the attack, the Soldier was treated by a doctor from the 3rd BG Quick Reaction Forces. The Soldier was evacuated to a Coalition Forces hospital in Ad Diwanyah city, but despite intensive medical care, the Soldier died at 9:15 p.m.

The Multinational Division Central-South commanding general has appointed a special commission in order to look into the circumstances of the attack.

The name of the Soldier is being withheld pending notification of next of kin.


For more information, please contact the Public Information Office of Multi-National Division Central-South, at Thuraya 00 873 762 197 788 or e-mail [email protected].


Release #050305d





Quote:
1st COSCOM investigating incident with Bulgarian Soldier
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Multi-National Forces - Iraq regrets the death of Jr. Sgt. Gardi Gardev from Bulgaria. Officials from 1st Corps Support Command are investigating the incident. More details will be provided when they are available.

MNF-I values greatly our partnership with Bulgaria in helping the Iraqis achieve democracy. We are committed to working with our Bulgarian partners to determine the cause of Jr. Sgt. Gardi's death.


TEXT FOR RELEASE AND OPSEC REVIEW PROVIDED BY THE COMBINED PRESS INFORMATION CENTER. FOR MORE INFORMATION, PLEASE CONTACT (703) 270-0279, 0299, 0321


Release #050308e



Quote:

Bulgaria blames US for soldier's death

BAGHDAD, March 7: US forces in Iraq faced new strains with allies on Monday when Bulgaria said they had probably shot dead one of its soldiers after angering Rome by killing an Italian secret agent who rescued a hostage.

The shootings confirmed what for many Iraqis is a daily reality - that US forces are too quick to open fire and often kill innocent civilians in their efforts to crack down on guerillas.

The US military says it does all it can to minimize the risk of Iraqis and foreign civilians being killed. The Bulgarian soldier was killed in southern Iraq on Friday, around the same time that US forces in Baghdad opened fire on a vehicle taking kidnapped Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena to the airport shortly after her captors freed her.

Ms Sgrena was wounded in the shoulder and secret agent Nicola Calipari, who played a key role in her release, was killed. Italy laid on a state funeral in Rome on Monday for Nicola Calipari.

Bulgarian Defence Minister Nikolai Svinarov said an investigation into the death of the Bulgarian soldier showed he had probably been accidentally killed by American troops.

"Someone started shooting at our patrol from the west, and in the same direction, 150 metres away, there was a unit from the US army," he said at a news conference. "The result gives us enough grounds to believe the death of rifleman Gurdi Gurdev was caused by friendly fire."

Mr Svinarov said the Bulgarian army's chief of staff had written to Gen Richard Myers, chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff, asking for an investigation. The US military had no immediate comment.

[LOOK at the dates, Fox, and the places, and the units ets.
Thank you. (Besides, all this really was covered in all the major media.)]
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 02:43 am
Quote:
BULGARIA: Army Blames Communication in Soldier Death

2005-03-09 16:24:43



The lack of direct communication between Bulgarian and U.S. troops was the probable cause of last week's killing of a Bulgarian soldier in Iraq in a suspected "friendly fire" incident, a top military official said Wednesday.

Army chief of staff Gen. Nikola Kolev said the two forces had not yet agreed on how to communicate with each other when Pvt. Gardi Gardev was fatally shot near the Iraqi city of Diwaniya on Friday.

The Bulgarian investigation found that Gardev was killed by U.S. troops guarding a military communications site, who opened fire on his patrol after it fired warning shots to stop an Iraqi civilian car.

"On March 2, all U.S. military sites were marked on the Bulgarian patrols' maps, but the issue for establishing means of direct communication with the U.S. troops was left to be decided in the next few days," Kolev said.

The incident happened after dark, and the situation was aggravated by the fact that the Bulgarian patrol had lost GPS orientation and contact with their base, Kolev said.

On the same day, American troops opened fire on a car heading for the Baghdad airport, killing an Italian intelligence agent and wounding an Italian journalist he helped rescue from insurgents.
Both incidents are being investigated by the U.S. military, an indication of the pressure being brought on the Bush administration by the few American allies that have steadfastly supported his policies in Iraq.

Kolev said the Bulgarian investigation had "no legal force," and any final conclusions should be based on the U.S. inquiry. The results of that probe will be made public Friday in Baghdad, Kolev told a news conference.

Gardev was the eighth Bulgarian soldier killed in Iraq. The Balkan country has a 460-member infantry battalion in Diwaniya.
The troops' mandate ends in mid-2005 and the government is to decide by the end of the month whether to keep troops there past July. Defense Minister Nikolai Svinarov has said he sees no reason for a pullout.

Source: Associated Press
Source

[Sources on previous post from the Bulgarian News Agency and the US Forces, sorry for not noting.]
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 03:51 am
Walter you are a star

Seriously

Don't be put off your researches because "no one reads my sources"

Your tag carries weight.

People here dismiss what you say at their peril.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 05:44 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Walter you are a star

Seriously

Don't be put off your researches because "no one reads my sources"

Your tag carries weight.

People here dismiss what you say at their peril.


They read Walter.... but with an eye trained on what they want to find ...... an opinionated eye, so to speak.
Off to the mines. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 05:56 am
Quote:
On the world's most dangerous roads
NS Special Issue
Tom Roberts
Monday 31st January 2005
Iraq elections - Tom Roberts, embedded with US troops for a month, finds their professionalism impressive but sees little hope of democracy emerging from "this bedlam"

What is life in Iraq for the average GI? By that, I do not mean those such as the marines who are used primarily for combat. I mean those engaged in the wider spectrum of military work, which the US army calls "lines of operation". These include economic development, political engagement and general peacekeeping as well as straightforward combat. To find out, I and a camera crew spent a month from the beginning of November embedded with the awkwardly named 5th Brigade Combat Team (5BCT) - a Donald Rumsfeld-inspired amalgamation of diverse outfits from across the US army (it even had navy units assigned to it) that would fight together only during their year in Iraq.

The 5BCT was stationed in south Baghdad, which combines urban and rural landscapes, and has a mixed population of Shias, Sunnis and Christians. One of its jobs was to guard "the crown jewels": Baghdad's only oil refinery, Iraq's main north/south highway, and a big power station, which only ever operated at 60 per cent of capacity while we were there.

The first encounter was perhaps the most unexpected. Colonel Lanza, the brigade commander, and his subordinates spent about three hours explaining to us the subtleties of the Sunni/Shia power struggle, the tension between conducting combat operations while trying to build a rapport with civilians, and the problems of their limited resources and the ruined Iraqi economy. Their grasp of the situation can only be called sophisticated. This, it seemed, was not an army reliant solely on "Texan firepower".

The colonel sent us on a three-day tour of sights in south Baghdad : a power station built by the Russians with all their unique flair for construction; a highway system that lacked signs, traffic lights or any of the normal rules of the road; and the creaking sewage works, whose restoration to provide clean water and sanitation was a high priority. We also saw urban slums that would not be out of place in Jakarta or Lagos. They showed no noticeable bomb damage, probably because the area had nothing worth bombing.

We were then handed over to a battalion of the 8th Cavalry Regiment. A briefing from its Texan commander, Lieutenant Colonel John Allen, was interrupted by two enormous explosions. Within minutes, we were speeding out of the base in armoured Humvees. Two large churches, we found, had been car-bombed and reduced to rubble. Mercifully, the insurgents had shouted a warning as they drove the car up the church steps. The priest and other church officials were walking around in a daze. One shouted over and over again to no one in particular: "They don't want us here."

On the return journey to the base, we were ambushed: the whoosh of a rocket-propelled grenade passing overhead was followed by several bursts of automatic gunfire. The immediate reaction of the American commander was to speed away. Then, at the first roundabout, he turned his six Humvees around and headed back into the ambush zone, guns blazing. Soldiers dismounted from the vehicles and attacked. The ambushers were gone but, if they had stayed to fight, the whole might of the US army would have been brought to bear. I realised then that this was not an army hiding behind its fortifications, waiting for air support. It was willing to fight hard on the streets.

There was one casualty. A taxi had been passing when the shooting started and its passenger had suffered a deadly head wound. It was impossible to tell who'd shot him - the insurgents or the Americans - and it was most likely a ricochet. But however it happened, the insurgents had a victory: the Americans would be blamed.

The following day, the number and severity of the attacks increased, and casualties mounted: more mortars and rockets struck the base, and more car bombs exploded on the roads. By the end of the week there were two dead and almost a dozen wounded. Yet morale didn't falter. After the death of one much-admired soldier, I saw clerks and office-bound soldiers queuing up to get a seat in one of the Humvees heading out of the base.

The 8th Cav was probably facing a group from the Sunni stronghold of Ramadi trying to distract the Americans from Fallujah. It increased its patrols and, in purely military terms, recorded a victory. The bodies of 24 insurgents were recovered. Blood trails and other evidence suggested a much higher body count. Yet for three weeks all economic and political development work came to a standstill. The neighbourhood and district council system that the Americans had forged collapsed almost completely, with members refusing to attend for fear they would be killed.

The soldiers had set up more roadblocks and policed more aggressively. But the idea that the US troops shoot at anything that moves did not tally with our experience, even though our movements were rarely restricted and we were frequently with front-line troops without an officer present. The worst outrage I saw in a month of combat was a dog gratuitously shot by the unit's doctor. Like the medic in Catch-22 who hated flying but wanted to receive his flight pay, this former paediatrician from the Deep South seemed to venture out only on missions where the security level was high and the combat risk low. He carried a shotgun - a weapon of little use in modern combat but one offering excellent opportunities for posing. Most of the soldiers loathed him.

But US troops are very forceful on the roads, and this is the point of greatest friction with the local population. It is also where the soldiers are most often targeted. Driving around in an armoured Humvee is not as safe as it looks. If a suicide bomber gets close (he can kill at a hundred yards) or if you drive directly over one of the 500lb aircraft bombs buried in the road, your time is up. The policy is not to let cars get close and certainly try never to let them get in among a convoy. All the Humvees carry signs warning drivers to keep 50 metres away, but despite forceful driving and warning shots, it is impossible to enforce in the chaos of Iraq's highways.



The tyranny of unintended consequences grinds away mercilessly. One officer told me how, in a poor neighbourhood, the unit had laid a soccer pitch, set up a league and sponsored several teams. The opening day was a big success with a large turnout. Later, the pitch was the setting for an ambush. The Americans won that battle as well, but the officer was sure they had previously entertained some of those whom they killed.

The 5BCT has built new schools and refurbished old ones, and yet a can of spray paint is enough to neuter its efforts. When a message appears on an exterior wall, threatening to kill any teacher who works there, the school empties. Anyone working for the Americans is a target, and not just the police or the newly formed National Guard. Translators, cleaners and contractors are not only subject to threats, they are machine-gunned or beheaded. The violence is not always political. I was told of one contractor, paid by 5BCT to employ several hundred men to clean the roads and hence to provide large-scale employment, who was killed by the contractor who didn't get the job.

In these respects the situation in Iraq is far worse than I had thought from the news I consumed in the UK. It is hard to imagine a democratic society emerging from this bedlam. The best hope is probably some form of pro-western military dictatorship. It will be ugly nevertheless.

The pressure to create a democracy in an untenable situation is a form of US imperialism. After an invasion that defied most of the world, the Americans have imposed an American solution, delivered to an American timetable. I saw absolutely no evidence on the ground that an Iraqi government existed at all. It is anybody's guess how the new "democratic" government will function.

Yet the soldiers we followed were upbeat. They understood "the mission" as it had been defined to us by their officers. The attitude was not star-spangled patriotism, but gritty, professional realism, befitting these soldiers whose average age is in the late twenties. The army is short of men - every officer I spoke to acknowledged that - and its equipment is not always of the highest standard. But discipline is strong and the men on the ground see themselves as being there for the long haul.

"We know they are going to hurt us and we'll lose more men," one sergeant said, "but sooner or later they'll realise we ain't leaving." And as George W Bush, in his simple way, is not one to cut and run, the sergeant is probably right. Expect to see a substantial US force in Iraq on the day Bush leaves office.

Tom Roberts's film, an October Films production made with Edward Jarvis, Petra Graf and Patrick Boland, was commissioned by Frontline, the US public service equivalent of Panorama. The BBC will show it as a Storyville later this year
This article first appeared in the New Statesman. For the latest in current and cultural affairs subscribe to the New Statesman print edition.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 06:12 am
"For the latest in current and cultural affairs subscribe to the New Statesman print edition."

I do

But thanks anyway Geli.
0 Replies
 
 

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