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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 08:19 pm
Quote:
See, that's still the question. ' have proof for that?


Yeah, they got shot.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 08:20 pm
Storm troopers

Democracy in action
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 08:21 pm
Brand X wrote:
Quote:
See, that's still the question. ' have proof for that?


Yeah, they got shot.


I see. So if I would shoot you, you must have been guilty, is what you say? No, wait, you must have done something to draw fire...
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 08:25 pm
old europe wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Quote:
See, that's still the question. ' have proof for that?


Yeah, they got shot.


I see. So if I would shoot you, you must have been guilty, is what you say?


No. They were the only car that recieved fire that day, that's pretty strong evidence they were at fault.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 08:28 pm
Brand X wrote:
old europe wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Quote:
See, that's still the question. ' have proof for that?


Yeah, they got shot.


I see. So if I would shoot you, you must have been guilty, is what you say?


No. They were the only car that recieved fire that day, that's pretty strong evidence they were at fault.


Okay. So if you're the only one killed in your city the whole day, that'd be pretty strong evidence that you were at fault, too.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 08:31 pm
Brand X wrote:
No. They were the only car that recieved fire that day, that's pretty strong evidence they were at fault.


Uh, btw - they were not the only ones shot at by US soldiers that day:

Bulgarian soldier killed in Iraq
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 08:36 pm
Quote:
To know about the military, that is. Or might be. Don't know him personally. Nevertheless - the incident is what many people are concerned about.
Some are f*cking outraged. Some.


Yes, if our guys were saying this woman was a communist on a missin--to humiliate and embarrass the United States, bolster the anti-war efforts in Italy, generate sympathy from others who are on the fence, and sidetrack all the good that has been accomplished to date, and our press was printing that along with inflammatory headlines, and we pro-military types bought into it, we would be pretty f*cking outraged. Might take awhile to shake out the truth. And even then some would probably chose to believe the lie.

Those opposed to the U.S., its military, and anything it proposes or undertakes to do, are probably going to believe the worst of whatever the media says was said or implied that makes the military look bad.

There is too much ambiguity, flexibility, and improbability in this woman's story in order to believe her over the military guards who have not been ambiguous, flexible, or improbable in their version of the facts. If the investigation proves they all were somehow persuaded to lie with one voice, I'll admit I was wrong. I don't believe that I am.

Again the most compelling fact against her version of the story is that she is alive to tell it.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 08:43 pm
old europe wrote:
Brand X wrote:
No. They were the only car that recieved fire that day, that's pretty strong evidence they were at fault.


Uh, btw - they were not the only ones shot at by US soldiers that day:

Bulgarian soldier killed in Iraq


Was it the same checkpoint?
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 08:45 pm
Fox -
some will buy her story. The vast majority doesn't.

People are outraged because they think the situation is handled poorly by the US military. (The general situation in Iraq, that is.)

But what reason do you have to believe the US guards over the Italian officer? Do you think he is ambiguous, flexible, or improbable, too?

What would you think if the situation were the other way round? Would you believe, say, the Bulgarian soldiers or the American officer?
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 08:45 pm
Brand X wrote:
old europe wrote:
Brand X wrote:
No. They were the only car that recieved fire that day, that's pretty strong evidence they were at fault.


Uh, btw - they were not the only ones shot at by US soldiers that day:

Bulgarian soldier killed in Iraq


Was it the same checkpoint?


Was it the same city?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 08:49 pm
Is that the only source re the Bulgarian soldier? Wouldn't you think the press would have taken that and run with it? I have to think this story and its 'anonymous source' are not credible unless substantiated elsewhere.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 08:50 pm
Nope, lots of sources... wait, I'll find some...
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 08:51 pm
Across Iraq, Fresh Mass Graves and Fatal Bomb Attacks
By ROBERT F. WORTH

Published: March 10, 2005


BAGHDAD, Iraq, March 9 - Twenty bodies, including those of civilian men and women, were found Wednesday in a remote valley near the Syrian border, Iraqi officials said, a day after 15 headless bodies were discovered south of Baghdad.

The 20 bodies were discovered by a shepherd near Qaim, a Euphrates River town about 250 miles northwest of Baghdad, a hospital official said. It was not immediately clear whether the victims were Iraqi Army and police officers, who have often been targets of large-scale killings by insurgents, or civilians suspected of collaborating with the Americans.

Insurgents continued a wave of attacks on Wednesday that left at least 10 people dead, including two suicide car bombings in central Iraq and an attack on a police patrol in Basra, in the south, where violence has been rare in recent weeks.

The attacks included the attempted assassination of Iraq's interim planning minister, Mahdi al-Hafidh, whose car was fired upon in Baghdad. Two of his the minister's guards were killed and a third was seriously wounded, Interior Ministry officials said. Mr. Hafidh was not injured.

Several prominent Iraqis have been gunned down in the past week or so, including an Interior Ministry official, a hospital director, and a judge and a lawyer working for the tribunal that will try Saddam Hussein and his associates.

Wednesday's violence began at 6:30 a.m., when a suicide bomber drove a garbage truck full of explosives into a parking lot next to the Sadr Hotel in central Baghdad, where American security contractors often stay. Gunmen exchanged fire with the hotel's armed guards for several minutes before the truck detonated about 35 yards from the eight-story hotel, which is next to the Agriculture Ministry building.

The explosion destroyed dozens of cars in the parking lot, leaving a huge crater in the concrete and sending a massive plume of black smoke into the sky near Firdos Square, where a statue of Saddam Hussein was pulled down by Iraqis and American soldiers nearly two years ago. All the hotel's windows were knocked out, but it did not appear to have been damaged structurally.

One Iraqi police officer was killed and 40 people were wounded in the blast, including 30 American contractors, according to a news release by the United States Embassy in Baghdad. None of the Americans were seriously injured, but four were flown out of Iraq for medical treatment, the statement said.

Within hours, Islamist Web sites posted statements from the network of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, Iraq's most wanted militant, claiming credit for the attack. The statements said the attackers had chosen the hotel because it had a "Jewish staff" and because Israeli intelligence agents were staying there.

Also on Wednesday, an American soldier was killed in Baghdad when his patrol vehicle his a roadside bomb, military officials said.

Gunmen also fired at a minibus carrying employees of a Kuwaiti company as it traveled through central Baghdad, killing one of the passengers and injuring three, Interior Ministry officials said.

In Habbaniya, 50 miles west, a suicide bomber drove an Oldsmobile sedan into an Iraqi Army base, killing two officers and a civilian and wounding at least 15 people, army officials said. The attacker is believed to have been a Sudanese, the officials said. Habbaniya is in the volatile Sunni Triangle, which has long been a stronghold of the insurgency.

In Basra, two police officers were killed and five were wounded when a roadside bomb exploded near their convoy. Attacks have been rare in southern Iraq in recent weeks. But several took place at the time of the elections in January in Zubair, about 20 miles west of Basra. Unlike most of the south, which is dominated by Shiites, Zubair is known as a haven for militant Sunnis.

The circumstances surrounding the bodies found near Qaim remained a mystery. One body was identified as that of Riyadh Aziz al-Sanad, a civilian who lives near Qaim and had been shot in the head, the hospital official said. All of the victims' bodies were returned to their families for burial, he added. Another hospital official in Qaim told Reuters that the victims had been killed two days ago.

The 15 bodies found Tuesday included women and children, and were discovered in an old military base between Karbala and Latifiya. Some of the men are thought to have been part of a group of Iraqi soldiers who were kidnapped two weeks ago, according to an Iraqi official cited by The Associated Press.


Mona Mahmoud and Ali Adeeb contributed reporting for this article.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 08:52 pm
http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=8&id=329986

One Bulgarian soldier killed by American bullets

Bulgarian soldier killed in Iraq likely shot by coalition troops, defense minister says

...

Didn't you hear about it?
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 08:59 pm
Quote:
Bulgaria Says Soldier Killed by U.S. Troops in Iraq

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - U.S. forces in Iraq, already implicated in the killing of an Italian secret agent, faced more "friendly fire" embarrassment on Monday when Bulgaria said they had probably shot dead one of its soldiers.

The controversy raised questions over whether U.S. troops are over-zealous in their efforts to crack down on insurgents, who killed at least 25 people in fresh attacks on Monday.

The Bulgarian soldier was killed in southern Iraq on Friday evening, around the same time that U.S. forces in Baghdad opened fire on a vehicle taking kidnapped Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena to the airport shortly after her captors freed her.


... from the Washington Post...
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 09:02 pm
Thanks OE. Again it seems strange that no location is mentioned, the only 'evidence' is an anonymous post on a website? What do the other Bulgarian soldiers say? Where was this? And if it did happen, if the facts given in one of the stories are accurate, it seems like a much different deal than what happened with the Italian reporter. But I don't know. Some allies died at our hand via friendly fire during the first Gulf war too and I'm sure in all other wars. It happens, it is tragic, and nobody wants it to happen.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 09:06 pm
Kara wrote:
This is really long but totally thought-provoking. Please read it and tell me what you think.



March 9, 2005
DOW JONES REPRINTS

Family Matters
Iraqi Shiite Women
Push Islamic Law
On Gender Roles

Powerful Female Politicians
Seek to Scale Back Rights;
Divorce, Alimony at Issue
'Don't Defy God's Orders'
By FARNAZ FASSIHI
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
March 9, 2005; Page A1

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- Over the past two years, Fatima Yaqoub has gone from sewing dresses at home to shaping municipal policies as a councilwoman in Kathamiya, a bustling district in Iraq's capital.

Ms. Yaqoub has organized computer courses for women and traveled to Egypt for a U.S.-funded course on constitutional and human-rights law. During the Iraqi elections in January, she supervised a polling station and oversaw the counting of the ballots.

In many ways, Ms. Yaqoub, 40 years old, is emblematic of the kind of gender equality the U.S. and many Iraqis envision for the new Iraq. But the devout Shiite Muslim is part of a group of increasingly powerful female politicians seeking to erase laws that provide women with some of the same rights as men.

She favors allowing Iraqi men to have as many as four wives and repealing laws that guarantee alimony payments and child-custody rights for women in divorces. Ms. Yaqoub also believes in decreasing the amount of money women stand to gain in inheritances and removing legal barriers to the marriage of girls younger than 18 years old.


Ms. Yaqoub is in the vanguard of a major push by Iraq's Shiite religious and political leaders to introduce aspects of Islamic "Sharia" law into Iraq's legal code, especially where it concerns family matters and women's rights. Sharia is Islam's version of divine law, drawn from the Koran and other religious texts.

In Iraq's recent election, Shiite candidates won by a landslide and secured a little more than half of the 275 seats in the national assembly. When the new government meets for the first time later this month, its most immediate task will be to draft a new constitution and pave the way for a new round of elections by this December.

Islam's Place

What role Islam plays in Iraq's new constitution is one of the most explosive issues facing the country's newly elected legislators. Leaders of the United Iraqi Alliance, the coalition of Shiite political parties, say they are determined to make permanent constitutional changes to Iraqi laws governing such things as marriage and divorce.

But many Iraqis, including secular Sunni Muslims whose participation in the government is considered key, are uncomfortable with a formal religious component to the government. Ethnic Kurds, who govern the northern part of Iraq with relative autonomy, may decide to ignore any religious-based laws the central government passes, say Iraqi political analysts.

The Bush administration also wants Iraq to remain a secular democracy. When Shiite leaders tried to introduce changes based on Islamic Sharia law last year, the effort was dropped after former U.S. administrator L. Paul Bremer threatened a veto.

Now that Iraq is sovereign, the U.S. no longer has direct say over domestic matters. But a senior American official in Baghdad said the introduction of Sharia law in the constitution could raise red flags. "There is a vision of where we want Iraq to be that would make sense in terms of the resources we've put into this place and our overarching goal for democracy," said the official.

Ms. Yaqoub and other women like her refer to themselves as the "Zeinab Sisters," a name given to devout Muslim women who follow the path of the Prophet Mohammad's daughter, Fatima.

Leading the Islamist sisterhood and serving as a role model for women like Ms. Yaqoub is a 46-year-old dentist-turned politician named Salama al-Khafaji. A member of the United Iraqi Alliance, Ms. Khafaji is a popular legislator whose 17-year-old son was killed by insurgents during an attempt to assassinate her in 2003.

"Iraqi society is tribal, Islamic and very conservative," says Ms. Khafaji, sitting behind a large wooden desk in her Baghdad office and wearing a black abbaya, the traditional cloth garment that conceals all but the face, hands and feet. "Most people don't feel ownership to the existing secular family law, and we must change it to follow Sharia. Forcing secularism on our society is also a form of dictatorship."

Professional, educated women like Ms. Yaqoub and Ms. Khafaji make up about one-third of the candidates on the United Iraqi Alliance slate that swept the elections with the backing of Shiite religious leader Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani. They hold ministerial positions and sit on local and provincial councils and act as policy makers. And they are proving to be especially effective at promoting conservative religious agendas for the simple reason that they are women, say critics.

"It's very difficult to fight this when their women politicians are advocating Sharia. The men say, 'See, you are wrong because even these women are supporting us,' " says Narmeen Othman, a Sunni Kurd who is Iraq's minister of women's affairs and a longtime champion of women's rights in Iraq.

Sharia law varies widely across Muslim countries, depending on the interpretation of Islamic jurists. In Saudi Arabia, where the Sunni population follows the ultraconservative Wahabi sect, Sharia calls for public executions and stoning women who have committed adultery.

Conservative Shiites in Iraq say they don't want an Islamist theocracy like the clerical regime next door in Iran, but they have been making a determined push to expand the sphere of religious influence in Iraq. And they've made family law the centerpiece of their efforts. The laws affect how Iraqis marry, divorce, inherit wealth, settle child-custody disputes and how courts view women's rights. "Our position on the family status law is non-negotiable. It will be based on Sharia," says Sheikh Kashef al Ghatta, an influential Shiite politician expected to win a seat on the committee that will draft the new constitution.

The new government is expected to draw up a revised constitution by October, when Iraqis will vote in a national referendum. If two-thirds of people in any three of Iraq's 18 provinces vote against it, the constitution will be void.

Although political negotiations haven't begun in earnest yet, Shiite politicians are already seeking ways to damp opposition to changing family laws. Some political analysts say the Kurds may look the other way if the constitution guarantees them continued autonomy. Shiites also have said they would support exemptions for religious minorities such as Christians.

If they succeed, Iraq's religious parties could wind up reversing one of the region's longest-standing westernized legal traditions. Iraq first introduced its secular family status law in 1959, shortly after the republic was first established. Iraqi law does allow men to marry more than once -- former dictator Saddam Hussein still has three wives -- but only under very specific conditions, such as when one wife is unable to have children. Under the current law, child custody is automatically given to mothers but under Sharia would go to the father's family. Under Sharia a husband can prohibit his wife from leaving the country alone.

Conservative Shiites want to replace the current laws "with a vague religious code to be subjectively applied by a religious court or a judge," says Mishkat al-Moumin, the Sunni minister of environment and a constitutional lawyer by training. "This is unacceptable. We will lose every thing we have gained in terms of women's rights."

Shiite leaders such as Ibrahim Jaafari, who is now poised to be named prime minister, say they support the implementation of Sharia into family law. In a recent interview at his home in Baghdad, Dr. Jaafari said he saw no conflict between Sharia and women's rights.

Ms. Yaqoub also sees no contradiction between her recent political empowerment and the Islamist agenda she supports. She grew up in the Shiite district of Kathamiya, a busy neighborhood whose golden-domed mosque attracts worshipers from across Iraq. Her father, a water-tank repairman who fathered nine children with two wives, taught Ms. Yaqoub how to pray and recite short verses of the Koran from a young age. When she turned 9, he instructed her to cover her hair.

Religion provided structure to her life. Every summer, Ms. Yaqoub's family trekked to Karbala, a holy city for Shiites, where she helped prepare big pots of rice and lentil stew for other pilgrims. She says her father didn't want her to attend a co-educational university, so after high school she began making money by sewing dresses for neighborhood women. But unlike most Iraqi women of her generation she decided not to get married. "I had suitors but I didn't like any of them," says Ms. Yaqoub.

In the chaos that followed Baghdad's fall to U.S. forces two years ago, mosques suddenly became the only viable authority in many places, organizing charity drives, health care and neighborhood patrols. Ms. Yaqoub says she volunteered to help her mosque's religious leader, Imam Mohammad Baqir, in any way she could. Several months later, when neighborhood councils began to spring up under the guidance of the U.S. military's civil-affairs units, she says Mr. Baqir took her aside and told her the mosque wanted to nominate her. The imam said she would make a good role model for other women, Ms. Yaqoub recalls.

With the backing of the local Shiite clerics, Ms. Yaqoub advanced quickly. Soon after joining the neighborhood council she was appointed to a council overseeing affairs for the district, even serving as its president for a three-month period. Together with other council leaders she appointed Baghdad's mayor and governor.

Last August, Ms. Yaqoub also was selected as a member of the U.S.-backed interim national assembly, where she says she worked to improve women's rights "within the framework of Islam." Ms. Yaqoub formed a local social-affairs committee that escorts widows and divorced women to the courts and government offices, helping them fill out forms and claim benefits. She also began attending religious classes funded by the Ayatollah Sistani. The free classes, run by the Ayatollah's representatives, are designed to train conservative wives, mothers and teachers. Enrollment has more than tripled each semester, according to school officials.

At the Waezia school in Khathemiya, about 50 or so women clad in black recently sat on a floral carpet and listened to Sheikh Ghatta give lessons on the interpretation of Islamic texts and verses from the Koran. When the lesson turned to Sharia, the women vehemently defended religious law and argued that Shiite politicians would lose their support if they failed to implement the basics of Sharia into the constitution. "We voted for them to stay with Islam and keep our country according to Islamic values," said Samira Rezaq Karim, a 47-year-old student. "Otherwise we would vote for another list."

These days, Ms. Yaqoub carries out her work at great personal risk. Insurgents are systematically targeting people who work with the U.S. or the Iraqi government, and Ms. Yaqoub has received death and kidnapping threats. Her family's home, where she lives with her mother and brother's family, was attacked with a rocket-propelled grenade.

One day last month, Ms. Yaqoub sat at table with 30 or so other district council members discussing fuel shortages, sewage problems and garbage pickups. She proposed they should find a way to bring subsidized fuel to the poor in the neighborhood.

After the meeting, Ms. Yaqoub said that she often counsels women who are having family problems. One young woman who recently came to her was distraught because her husband planned to take a second wife. Ms. Yaqoub said she offered the woman a lesson that she had learned at the theological school. "I told her that our country has had three wars and there are not enough men for every woman to marry. So she should not be so selfish and share her husband like a good Muslim wife," Ms. Yaqoub explained. "I reminded her that God had allowed our men to take more than one wife and you don't defy God's orders."

Write to Farnaz Fassihi at [email protected]

Copyright 2005 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved


If these conservative women in Iraq want to be led around by the nose by men... that is their right, in a free society. But they should not seek to impose laws to deprive other women the right to be independent.

It is like, you can unlock the prison door but we like being captives in here. It is not the US "dictating" freedom on them it is conservatives trying the dictate the limiting of freedoms on others. They don't realize freedom is not US given but God given.

Sorry I reposted such a long post for such a short reply. Had to get in my two cents.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 09:07 pm
Fox, you could probably find out more details... I admit I haven't followed this one that close...
But then, remember, "major combat operations in Iraq have ended"...

And again: supposed this was the other way round, wouldn't you at least be concerned?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 09:09 pm
Rex, Freedom is given by men/women.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2005 09:22 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Rex, Freedom is given by men/women.


I believe freedom is a God given right. Free will and liberty are in the old and new testaments of the Bible.
0 Replies
 
 

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