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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 06:28 am
Quote:


Too lengthy to post .... klikme

Thanks steve.....
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 07:42 am
Quote:
March 9, 2005
Another Species of Cedar
A Half Million Lebanese March for Syria

By ROBERT FISK

It was a warning. They came in their tens of thousands, Lebanese Shia Muslim families with babies in arms and children in front, walking past my Beirut home. They reminded me of the tens of thousands of Iraqi Shia Muslims who walked with their families to the polls in Iraq, despite the gunfire and the suicide bombers.

And now they came from southern Lebanon and the Bekaa to say they rejected America's plans in Lebanon, and wanted - so they claimed - to know who killed Rafiq Hariri, the former prime minister murdered on 14 February, and to reject UN Security Council Resolution 1559 which demands a Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon and the disarmament of the Hizbollah guerrilla movement, and to express their "thanks" to Syria. This was a tall order in Lebanon.

But only 100 yards from the Lebanese opposition protests, the half-million - for that was an approachable figure, given Hizbollah's extraordinary organisational abilities - stood for an hour with Lebanese flags, and posed a challenge to President George Bush's project in the Middle East. "America is the source of terrorism", one poster proclaimed. "All our disasters come from America".

Many of those tens of thousands were Hizbollah families who had fought the Israelis during their occupation of southern Lebanon, been arrested by the Israelis, imprisoned by the Israelis and feared that American support for Lebanon meant not "democracy" but an imposed Israeli-Lebanese peace treaty.

There were Syrians in the crowds - indeed, I saw buses with Syrian registration plates that had brought families from Damascus - but almost all the half million were Lebanese Shias and they wanted to reject 1559 because it called for Hizbollah to be disarmed. They were perfectly happy to see the Syrians leave (who now remembers the Syrian massacre of Hizbollah members in Beirut in 1987?) but, bearing in mind Syria's transit of weapons from Iran to Lebanon, Hizbollah wanted to be regarded as a resistance movement, not a "militia" to be disarmed. What the Shia were saying was that they were a power, just as they said when they voted in Iraq. In Lebanon, Shia Muslims are the largest religious community.

Syria is run by a clique of Alawis - who are Shia - and Iraq is now dominated by Shia Muslims who voted themselves into power, and Iran is a Shia nation. So when President Bush said "the Lebanese people have the right to determine their future free from domination of a foreign power", the power the Shias were thinking of was not Syria but the United States and Israel.

And 100 yards away, the demonstrators who have bravely protested against the murder of Rafik Hariri have become factionalised, courtesy of the Syrians. At night, the opposition protesters are largely Christian. Yesterday's Hizbollah rally, while it contained the usual pro-Syrian Christians, was essentially Shia. And their message was not one of thanks to President Bush.

"The fleets came in the past and were defeated; and they will be defeated again," Hizbollah's leader, Sayed Hassan Nasrallah, said in reference to the Americans. Ironically, President Bush was to refer within hours to the killing of 241 US Marines in Beirut in October 1982, as if their deaths were the responsibility of al-Qa'ida. To the Israelis, Nasrallah said: "Let go of your dreams for Lebanon. To the enemy entrenched on our border, occupying our country and imprisoning our people, 'There is no place for you here and there is no life for you among us: Death to Israel'."

Nasrallah's take on the 1975-90 Lebanese civil war was predictable. The crowds were meeting on the front lines that had separated the Lebanese during the civil war; indeed, on the very location of the Christian-Muslim trenches of that conflict. "We meet today to remind the world and our partners in the country," Nasrallah said, "that this arena that joins us, or the other one in Martyrs' Square, was destroyed by Israel and civil war and was united by Syria and the blood of its soldiers and officers."

This was an inventive piece of history. Israel certainly killed many thousands of Lebanese - more than the Syrians, although their soldiers took the lives of many hundreds - but the half million roared their approval.

So what did all this prove? That there was another voice in Lebanon. That if the Lebanese "opposition" - pro-Hariri and increasingly Christian - claim to speak for Lebanon and enjoy the support of President Bush, there is a pro-Syrian, nationalist voice which does not go along with their anti-Syrian demands but which has identified what it believes is the true reason for Washington's support for Lebanon: Israel's plans for the Middle East.

The Beirut demonstration yesterday was handled in the usual Hizbollah way: maximum security, lots of young men in black shirts with two-way radios, and frightening discipline. No one was allowed to carry a gun or a Hizbollah flag. There was no violence. When one man brandished a Syrian flag, it was immediately taken from him. Law and order, not "terrorism", was what Hizbollah wished. Syria had spoken. President Bashar Assad's sarcastic remark about the Hariri protesters needing a "zoom lens" to show their numbers had been answered by a demonstration of Shia power which needed no "zoom".

And in the mountains above Beirut, still frozen under their winter snows, few Syrians moved. There were Syrian military trucks on the international highway to Damascus but no withdrawal, no retreat, no redeployment. The Taif agreement of 1989 stipulated that the Syrians should withdraw to the Mdeirej heights above Beirut, which they have now agreed to do, 14 years later than they should have done.

The official document released by the Lebanese-Syrian military delegation in Damascus suggests this is a new redeployment and that in April the Syrian forces, along with their military intelligence personnel, will withdraw to the Lebanese-Syrian border.

But the question remains: will they retreat to the Syrian side of the frontier, or sit in the Lebanese-Armenian town of Aanjar, on the Lebanese side, where Brigadier General Rustum Gazale, the head of Syrian military intelligence, still maintains his white-painted villa?

Either way, Lebanon can no longer be taken for granted. The "cedar" revolution now has a larger dimension, one that does not necessarily favour America's plans. If the Shia of Iraq can be painted as defenders of democracy, the Shias of Lebanon cannot be portrayed as the defenders of "terrorism". So what does Washington make of yesterday's extraordinary events in Beirut?

Robert Fisk is a reporter for The Independent and author of Pity the Nation. He is also a contributor to CounterPunch's hot new book, The Politics of Anti-Semitism.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 08:10 am
old europe wrote:
Brand X wrote:
All that is moot any way as they did something to draw fire, hopefully we'll find out exactly what that something was. In the mean time her story gets a lot of credence eventhough she contradicts herself over and over.

I sounds like they got caught up in the thrill and joy of her escape and in that... failed to yield to the rules of the checkpoint.

Previous vehicles that day passed through without gun fire.



Hey, Brandy, do you have a clue what you are talking about, or not?


"In the mean time her story gets a lot of credence"

Quote:
Fini said the hypothesis that the shooting was the result of an ambush, as suggested by Sgrena, is "groundless."


Quote:
Maurizio Gasparri urged her to to show restraint: "I understand the emotion of these hours, but those who have been under stress in the past few weeks should pull themselves together and avoid talking nonsense."


Uh, Gasparri and Fini are Italian ministers, btw.
"lot of credence"
sure


"I sounds like they got caught up in the thrill and joy of her escape and in that... failed to yield to the rules of the checkpoint."

Guess what? She wasn't driving. And the Italian officers? Yeah, thrilled as hell, I'd say!


" they did something to draw fire"

See, that's still the question. ' have proof for that?


I'm speaking of credence in the media, she's been interviewed several times and the story has been reproduced exponentially. This incident smacks of her modus operandi when she implies she was targeted. In her past reports she has implied the the US use napalm, and nuclear bombs in Fallujah...the woman is a nut and should be muzzled. She also said in past reports the US was responsible for the hostages that were found tortured and murdered in Fallujah.

Regardless of what Rome says, unless you are a person who digs a little deeper for information Sgrena's own story telling is going to have more credence IMO.

I'm not saying that mistakes and wrongs have not been committed by the US along the way.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 08:36 am
Quote:
OE writes
Quote:
Fox, you could probably find out more details... I admit I haven't followed this one that close...
But then, remember, "major combat operations in Iraq have ended"...

And again: supposed this was the other way round, wouldn't you at least be concerned?


It all comes down to one core conviction: I believe the U.S. efforts in Iraq are born and accomplished of right motives far more than the occasional wrong motive that no doubt coincidentally exists. I believe the vast majority of our military leaders, both officers and grunts, are professionals, committed to doing an honorable job, are given to passion and compassion as is the public at large, and are subject to human infallibility including at times having feet of clay.

When a U.S. soldier is injured or killed I grieve. When the injury or death is caused by a murderous terrorist, a deep anger is mixed with the grief, but if the death is caused by accident or friendly fire (from our people or others) the grief is the same.

I think if a U.S. soldier is killed by friendly fire from Bulgarians or Italians or the Brits or any other, my first thought is not that somebody acted intentionally or recklessly. And that is the difference. Whenever there is a tragedy like this, the first response, shrill and judgmental, from the anti-war people both here and abroad is that the U.S. intentionally did something wrong. I take strong exception to that. You can count on it every time.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 11:00 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Walter you are a star

Seriously

Don't be put off your researches because "no one reads my sources"

Your tag carries weight.

People here dismiss what you say at their peril.


They read Walter.... but with an eye trained on what they want to find ...... an opinionated eye, so to speak.
Off to the mines. :wink:


Thanks.
:wink:






Foxfyre wrote:
[When a U.S. soldier is injured or killed I grieve. When the injury or death is caused by a murderous terrorist, a deep anger is mixed with the grief, but if the death is caused by accident or friendly fire (from our people or others) the grief is the same.

I think if a U.S. soldier is killed by friendly fire from Bulgarians or Italians or the Brits or any other, my first thought is not that somebody acted intentionally or recklessly. And that is the difference. Whenever there is a tragedy like this, the first response, shrill and judgmental, from the anti-war people both here and abroad is that the U.S. intentionally did something wrong. I take strong exception to that. You can count on it every time.


You posted the above about 2½ hours. Yesterday you wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Is that the only source re the Bulgarian soldier? Wouldn't you think the press would have taken that and run with it? I have to think this story and its 'anonymous source' are not credible unless substantiated elsewhere.


I even posted the official press relases.

I really think, I made a big mistake in taking you seriously. Sad
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 11:31 am
http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/050308/cagle00.gif
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 11:42 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I didn't and don't post them, because no-one of you reads them, understands them or cares about them.


keeeeep on posting Walter!! Good sources, important posts, and people DO read them!!!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 11:46 am
Well, I know that my posts are read -by those, who can do so.

Others might have automatic blinkers installed.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 11:48 am
I know what you mean, Walter. I sometimes scroll through some people's post, and that includes mine. LOL
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 11:50 am
McG your chosen cartoon is hollow and not at all funny.

They had informed the US, they had passed several checkpoints, only one fired at them...and by credible accounts, started firing before any warning (if given) could reasonably be acted upon.

No wonder the soldiers apologised. So should you.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 12:11 pm
Surprised that noone saw this.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21981-2005Mar9.html

Quote:
U.S. Quits Pact Used in Capital Cases
Foes of Death Penalty Cite Access to Envoys


By Charles Lane
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, March 10, 2005; Page A01

The Bush administration has decided to pull out of an international agreement that opponents of the death penalty have used to fight the sentences of foreigners on death row in the United States, officials said yesterday.

In a two-paragraph letter dated March 7, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice informed U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan that the United States "hereby withdraws" from the Optional Protocol to the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations. The United States proposed the protocol in 1963 and ratified it -- along with the rest of the Vienna Convention -- in 1969.

The protocol requires signatories to let the International Court of Justice (ICJ) make the final decision when their citizens say they have been illegally denied the right to see a home-country diplomat when jailed abroad.

The United States initially backed the measure as a means to protect its citizens abroad. It was also the first country to invoke the protocol before the ICJ, also known as the World Court, successfully suing Iran for the taking of 52 U.S. hostages in Tehran in 1979.

But in recent years, other countries, with the support of U.S. opponents of capital punishment, successfully complained before the World Court that their citizens were sentenced to death by U.S. states without receiving access to diplomats from their home countries.

The Supreme Court is scheduled to hear oral arguments March 28 in the case of a Mexican death row inmate in Texas who is asking the justices to enforce an ICJ decision in favor of Mexico last year. That case has attracted wide attention in Mexico and caused a diplomatic rift between the Bush administration and the government of Mexican President Vicente Fox.

Rice is scheduled to meet with Fox today in Mexico in preparation for a summit meeting at President Bush's ranch in Crawford, Tex., later this month.

The administration's decision does not affect the rest of the Vienna Convention, which requires its 166 signatories to inform foreigners of their right to see a home-country diplomat when detained overseas. But it shows that Washington's desire to counteract international pressure on the death penalty now weighs against a long-standing policy of ensuring the United States a forum in which to enforce its citizens' allegations of abuse.

"The International Court of Justice has interpreted the Vienna Consular Convention in ways that we had not anticipated that involved state criminal prosecutions and the death penalty, effectively asking the court to supervise our domestic criminal system," State Department spokeswoman Darla Jordan said yesterday.

Withdrawal from the protocol is a way of "protecting against future International Court of Justice judgments that might similarly interpret the consular convention or disrupt our domestic criminal system in ways we did not anticipate when we joined the convention," Jordan added.

The administration's action comes after its Feb. 28 decision to grant 51 Mexicans on death row in Texas and elsewhere new state court hearings, as the ICJ had ordered.

But withdrawal from the protocol means that the United States will not have to bow to the ICJ again, legal analysts said.

Some said the decision would weaken both protections for U.S. citizens abroad and the idea of reciprocal obligation that the protocol embodied.

"It's encouraging that the president wants to comply with the ICJ judgment" in the Mexicans' case, said Frederic L. Kirgis, a professor of international law at Washington and Lee University. "But it's discouraging that it's now saying we're taking our marbles and going home."

The State Department, however, notes that fewer than 30 percent of the signatories to the Vienna Convention had agreed to the protocol. Among those that had not done so are Spain, Brazil and Canada, officials said.

Bush's decision to enforce the ICJ judgment in the case of the Mexicans "should ensure that our withdrawal is not interpreted as an indication that we will not fulfill our international obligations," said Jordan of the State Department.

Meanwhile, the president's decision has thrown the Supreme Court case regarding the Mexicans into limbo. Some legal analysts suggest the case may now be moot.

Attorneys for Jose Ernesto Medellin, a convicted murderer on death row in Texas who is seeking review of his assertion that a lack of consular access harmed his case at trial, have asked the justices to put the case on hold until after Medellin has had his hearing in Texas state court.

The Texas attorney general's office, meanwhile, issued a statement Tuesday saying, "We respectfully believe" that the president's decision "exceeds constitutional bounds for federal authority."


Nothing like pulling out of treaties that we wrote in the first place.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 12:32 pm
This administration has always been the tyrant of the world, so there's nothing new - especially since we never followed the Geneva Convention anyways.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 12:40 pm
The St. Petersburg Times reports on the latest Democrats Gone Wild! incident:

TAMPA - Politics has always been divisive, splitting families and turning friend against friend.
This week, though, a Tampa woman learned that simple Bush-Cheney bumper sticker can bring trouble, if not danger, from a total stranger.

Police say Michelle Fernandez, 35, was chased for miles Tuesday by an irate 31-year-old Tampa man who cursed at her as he held up an anti-Bush sign and tried to run her off the road.

His sign, about the size of a business letter, read:

Never Forget Bush's Illegal Oil War Murdered Thousands in Iraq.

"I guess this was a disgruntled Democrat," Tampa Police spokesman Joe Durkin said. "Maybe he has that sign with him so he's prepared any time he comes up against a Republican."

Police arrested Nathan Alan Winkler at his home on N Cleveland Street near Hyde Park within an hour of the incident.

After finding the antiwar sign in his car, they booked him into the county jail on one count of aggravated stalking, a third-degree felony punishable by up to five years in prison, Durkin said.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 12:41 pm
Quote:
Peter Spiro, a law professor at the University of Georgia, said the withdrawal was unbecoming: "It's a sore-loser kind of move," he said. "If we can't win, we're not going to play."
source
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 01:03 pm
Who's version should we trust?
*************************
Public Version of Saddam Capture Fiction?



An alleged ex-Marine who claims to have participated in the capturing of Saddam Hussein says the public version of his capture was fabricated, United Press International is reporting.

Former Sgt. Nadim Abou Rabeh was quoted in a Saudi newspaper as saying the ousted Iraqi president was actually captured Friday, Dec. 12, 2003, and not the day after, as announced by the U.S. Army, according to UPI.

"I was among the 20-man unit, including eight of Arab descent, who searched for Saddam for three days in the area of Dour near Tikrit, and we found him in a modest home in a small village and not in a hole as announced," the UPI report quoted Abou Rabeh as saying.

Whom do you believe? is it possible that Saddam coming out of his hole was entirely made up just to make the U.S. look strong in the war against Iraq? [Netscape Community]

This ex-Marine, Nadim Abou Rabeh, has a lot of explaining to do to make his story and his timeline valid. [Blog: The National Ledger]

The Pentagon is flatly denying the report. "It's not true, period," Pentagon spokeswoman Cheryl Irwin told WorldNetDaily.com

UPI said it published a summary of the al-Medina newspaper report without seeking Pentagon comment.

Abou Rabeh, who is of Lebanese descent, according to UPI, said Hussein was captured after fierce resistance. He said Saddam himself fired at them with a gun from the window of a room on the second floor. Then they shouted at him in Arabic: "You have to surrender. ... There is no point in resisting."

"Later on, a military production team fabricated the film of Saddam's capture in a hole, which was in fact a deserted well," UPI quoted Abou Rabeh as saying.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 01:08 pm
c.i.: would you please link to the source of your posts? Thanks.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 01:10 pm
Sure, Tico. Sent to me by email. http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/storymain.jsp?number=1
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 01:14 pm
Published 3/9/2005 6:31 PM

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia, March 9 (UPI) -- Pentagon officials dismissed as "ridiculous" and untrue a report that the capture of Saddam Hussein in Iraq was staged.

A Saudi Arabian newspaper reported Tuesday that a former U.S. Marine, now living in Lebanon, claimed the Iraqi dictator had been captured earlier by a small team of troops, and forced into the now famous "spider hole" to play a role in a film fabricated by the U.S. military to make Saddam look bad.

United Press International published a summary of the newspaper report without seeking Pentagon comment.

The newspaper al-Medina said former-Marine Sgt. Nadim Abou Rabeh claimed Saddam Hussein was caught by a 20-man unit a day before the Army said he was captured. Rabeh said Saddam Hussein was found in a house, and a gun battle ensued that killed one of Marine.

The U.S. Army's 4th Infantry Division announced Dec. 14 that Saddam Hussein had been captured in a massive operation on Dec. 13. He was discovered, bearded and disoriented, in a small underground chamber.

Saddam was captured near Tikrit in an operation led by the 4th Infantry Division. The operation involved about 600 troops.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 01:20 pm
The neo conservative

Ex-Marine Alleges Saddam Story was Fabricated

Some of you may have seen the headline on Drudge about a US marine claiming that Saddam Hussein was not captured in a spider hole.

"I was among the 20-man unit, including eight of Arab descent, who searched for Saddam for three days in the area of Dour near Tikrit, and we found him in a modest home in a small village and not in a hole as announced," Abou Rabeh said.

"We captured him after fierce resistance during which a Marine of Sudanese origin was killed," he said.

He said Saddam himself fired at them with a gun from the window of a room on the second floor. Then they shouted at him in Arabic: "You have to surrender. ... There is no point in resisting."

"Later on, a military production team fabricated the film of Saddam's capture in a hole, which was in fact a deserted well," Abou Rabeh said.
His story is a load of bull. Saddam was captured by Task Force 121, which is composed mainly of Delta Force (more information available here). No marines participated in the capture of Saddam Hussein. He's just another person looking to make a quick buck.

Update: Somebody linked me to this post from a popular online forum.

First of all, there were no major Marine units in Iraq at the time that Saddam was captured. The last Marines to leave Iraq left at the end of September '03 (I was in the last Marine convoy to leave Iraq, trust me on this one). Marines did not re-enter Iraq en masse until January of '04.

Second, I tried searching the Marine Locator on Marine Online, this guy has no account (something that's been required for a few years now).

Third, I tried searching the Marine Corps Uniform Board tool for looking up who has been approved for a Combat Action Ribbon (something he would have received had he, you know, ever been shot at or shot at someone), his name does not show up (tool located here: https://lnweb1.manpower.usmc.mil/ma...tion.nsf/search).

Fourth, I looked up who was killed around that time here: http://icasualties.org/oif/BY_DOD.aspx and couldn't find either anyone of Sudanese descent, nor any Marines (goes back to my first point) killed around that time.

This guy is making it up.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2005 01:27 pm
Just to correct the above:
the Ex-Sgt's name is Nadim Abou Rabeh, and he is of Lebanese descent :wink:
0 Replies
 
 

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