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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 10:23 am
Sgrena has more stories about this than John Kerry had about Viet Nam.

Quote:
When the driver said "they're attacking us", one of the [agents] tried to say we're Italians but it was impossible to get out of the car because the car was under this rain of fire.

And the other one tried to protect me and he died. I was pushing down to avoid the bullets and after I don't know how long, I found that he was dead.


And she said this:

Quote:
The driver started yelling that we were Italians. "We are Italians, we are Italians." Nicola Calipari threw himself on me to protect me and immediately, I repeat, immediately I heard his last breath as he was dying on me.


She doesn't seem sure who was yelling, "we're Italians", and Nicola died 'after I don't know how long', or 'immediatley I heard his last breath'.

I will posit that she's a lying reporter who is making it up as she goes, now she's losing track of the lies.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 10:27 am
You are so right, Brand.

I really must have missed that she was in the Italian parliament reporting this morning.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 10:43 am
Excerpt:

Quote:
Italy didn't plan safe escape for hostage


By Rowan Scarborough
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Italian security forces failed to make arrangements for safe passage out of Iraq for a freed Italian reporter, whose car was fired on by U.S. troops, killing intelligence agent Nicola Calipari who brokered the reporter's release, according to an internal Pentagon memo.
The memo says checkpoint soldiers are trained to deal with erratic speeding vehicles whose drivers ignored warnings -- a profile that matches the Army's version of events in Friday night's shooting.
The memo says more than 500 American troops have been killed on the streets and at checkpoints in Iraq. Mistaken shootings of civilians resulted in "few deadly incidents" since the U.S. started checkpoints in March 2003, according to the memo.

Meanwhile, the White House dismissed as "absurd" the stated suspicion of the reporter, Giuliana Sgrena, who said the United States tried to kill her because it opposes negotiations with terrorists to free hostages. Miss Sgrena, a reporter for the Italian communist newspaper Il Manifesto, provided no evidence.
"It's absurd to make any such suggestion that our men and women in uniform would deliberately target innocent civilians," said White House spokesman Scott McClellan adding: "We regret this incident. We are going to fully investigate what exactly occurred."
Maj. Gen. William G. Webster Jr., who heads the Army's 3rd Infantry Division, yesterday completed the "commander's preliminary inquiry." He has decided to conduct a more extensive inquiry, called a 15-6 for the regulation that authorizes it. Gen. Webster will name one officer to head the probe.
A U.S. official said that of all the cars that passed through the checkpoint that night, the reporter's vehicle was the only one fired upon.
"Something that car did caused the soldiers to fire," said the official, who asked not to be named.

The shooting occurred at night at a checkpoint on a notoriously dangerous road that links Baghdad to the international airport.


Source
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 10:45 am
As I said: all liars, those Italians!

(To be honest, I never trusted their right government at all.)
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 10:48 am
Good for you Walter. I understand that 80% of the Germans believe Muslim=Terrorist. Isn't that interesting?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 10:52 am
Yes, certainly.
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 11:27 am
I think a "checkpoint" should consist of more than a searchlight and a machine gun.

We're all very wise after the event. I suppose the Ali Babas would not have a searchlight.

Still, they said they knew they were in a safer area, controlled by the US military, near to the airport. So, a light would mean "STOP" and they would have done so, to be safe.
So, it looks like the light and the bullets must have arrived at approximately the same time.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 11:32 am
Sheesh.

It doesn't matter. None of this matters. We shot the hell out of the car, she didn't die, the other guy did, nothing is going to happen, and that's the end of it.

I myself am guilty; guilty of thinking that things like truth, justice, fault, any of that crap had any meaning inside a war zone; which is exactly what Iraq is, a war zone. The truth is whatever the US military says it is.

<depressed>

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 11:42 am
Cyclo

cheer up. Wait till you see Bush's speech today. Its clear there's lots more to come.

Many more people have to die in order that they may be saved.

Now I can accept America as a great imperial power, and great imperial powers have always done and will always do what they need to do, but Bush seems to have that messianic glint in his eye, almost as if, almost as if....HE MEANS IT. help

I think Bush really is on a mission from God, or thinks he is.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 11:44 am
McGentrix wrote:
Good for you Walter. I understand that 80% of the Germans believe Muslim=Terrorist. Isn't that interesting?


I'm not such a fast reader as you are McG - 160 pages plus some dozens of footnotes takes a certain time, especially, since English is not my native language.

Thus, I couldn't find what you understood, but only that in Germany 80% of those surveyed in 2004 associated the word "Islam" with "terrorism" and "oppression of women".
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 11:48 am
Revel, I continue to do a poor job in communicating my point. I was not simply responding to your point. I was also making (or attempting to make Smile ) a point of my own.

My point relates to the Kurds, the BAS (i.e., Baghdad area Sunnis), and Shiites as they are now.

It was my claim that the Kurds now are more effective in controlling the BAQT (i.e., Baathist-al-Qaeda-terrorists) than are either the BAS, or the Shiites. I claim it is for that reason that the Kurds do not suffer the same degree of atrocities committed by the BAQT as do the BAS, or the Shiites, and not because the Kurds have established a special agreement with the BAQT. However, since we started this discussion, I have read about more frequent atrocities committed by the BAQT against the Kurds. More frequent enough, I think, to render our discussion mute. except for your point:

Quote:
And lastly, I don't think a show of strength is relative factor on whether the insurgents will attack or not in Iraq as our Military and the coalition has been attacked since major operations ended.


Looks to me like you are right about that.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 11:51 am
It was just an interesting fact. I didn't know if you were aware of it is all.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 11:51 am
Sure, Cyclops ... cheer up. There will be plenty more bad news over in Iraq for you to trumpet.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 11:55 am
Quote:
Sure, Cyclops ... cheer up. There will be plenty more bad news over in Iraq for you to trumpet.


? It's the bad news that gets me depressed. I've never been cheered by reporting bad news in Iraq once.

I guess I should just learn to ignore the bad news like you guys....

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 11:57 am
McGentrix wrote:
It was just an interesting fact. I didn't know if you were aware of it is all.


No, as I said: I read it different.

Could you please post the page, where that is noted? Thanks.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 11:57 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Sheesh.

It doesn't matter. None of this matters. We shot the hell out of the car, she didn't die, the other guy did, nothing is going to happen, and that's the end of it.

I myself am guilty; guilty of thinking that things like truth, justice, fault, any of that crap had any meaning inside a war zone; which is exactly what Iraq is, a war zone. The truth is whatever the US military says it is.

<depressed>

Cycloptichorn


It must be difficult to go through life with such a superiority of moral sensibility. Unfortunately the world and the lives we lead just don't measure up to your standards, Cyclo. It must be the world that is at fault: couldn't be you.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 12:01 pm
I refuse to compromise my standards/ideas of what's right and wrong just because my country is currently being ran by theives and thugs.

I realize that you may have a problem understanding that. I'm okay with that.

As an aside; I understand you don't agree with me politically and probably don't like my posting style. I'm quite okay with that as well. So why don't we just take it as a given that you look down upon the things I write, so you can just keep shut about it in the future rather than waste your time and mind reminding me what an idiot I am? Thanks a bunch.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 12:02 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Sure, Cyclops ... cheer up. There will be plenty more bad news over in Iraq for you to trumpet.


? It's the bad news that gets me depressed. I've never been cheered by reporting bad news in Iraq once.

I guess I should just learn to ignore the bad news like you guys....

Cycloptichorn


Or perhaps you could take solace in knowing there is a lot of good news that never gets reported.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 12:22 pm
Quote:
Or perhaps you could take solace in knowing there is a lot of good news that never gets reported.


I'll relate a story for ya as to exactly why I agree with this in part, but partly not.

A good friend of mine named Travis recently got back from Iraq. He's not the same anymore; where he used to be loud and blustery, he is quiet and contemplative. He was there for almost two years.

The changes in my pal aren't all bad; I feel that he is much more serious and mature than when he left. The positive experiences that he had over there are things that he can carry with him, and build off of, his whole life. For example, he recounted a little tale about how one day, his unit was working on repairing a school which had been damaged during the fighting, and one of the Iraqi gentlemen that was working with them invited him home for dinner in broken English.

He said that they ate a bunch of wierd food, and noone could talk to him right but they kept trying in what he described as the 'worst, funniest english you ever heard.' Apparently they had a great time. Travis said that the meal, and the people, were fantastic.

I didn't ask him a bunch of questions about the bad stuff he'd seen/done; I mean, who wants to pester their buddy to recount bad memories? But he had a lot to say about the feeling of fear that pervaded many of the Army soldiers he dealt with. The IED bombs strike anywhere, a patrol he was on was hit though he himself wasn't hurt. He said ya never know when your number was going to come up, and in some soldiers (like him) this lead to sort of an existential state of peace; others dealt with it in worse ways.

We didn't talk about the fighting part of it other than for him to say that he thought he shot a guy, but couldn't be sure. He said that was the part that bugged him; he couldn't be sure if he killed a guy or not.

I think there are massively good things happening in Iraq, b/c most of our soldiers want to help while they are there. I think there are also massively bad things happening in Iraq, b/c it's a war zone. I suspect all war zones are basically the same when it comes to abuses and injustices; there are a sh*t ton of them. But now that they are in the public eye....

I am cheering for America to win this fight, and by win I mean stabilize Iraq and get the hell out. I don't know if it will happen or not. I guess I feel the worst for the US troops who are just trying to do a good job. I asked my buddy if he's going to go back to Iraq and he didn't know. He was pretty pissed off about the way the Army kept him in a lot longer than he was supposed to be in; he said a lot of people were pissed about that.

Hopefully in a year I can look back on the archive of this post and see that everything went well over the last year; but, honestly, I doubt it...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 12:28 pm
Quote:
Informed Comment

Thoughts on the Middle East, History, and Religion

Juan Cole is Professor of History at the University of Michigan

Monday, March 07, 2005

Foreign Occupation has Produced Radical Muslim Terrorism

Fareed Zakariya argues that Bush got one thing right. Zakariya writes:


" Bush never accepted the view that Islamic terrorism had its roots in religion or culture or the Arab-Israeli conflict. Instead he veered toward the analysis that the region was breeding terror because it had developed deep dysfunctions caused by decades of repression and an almost total lack of political, economic and social modernization. The Arab world, in this analysis, was almost unique in that over the past three decades it had become increasingly unfree, even as the rest of the world was opening up. His solution, therefore, was to push for reform in these lands."



I don't use the phrase "Islamic terrorism" because "Islamic" refers to the essentials of the religion, and it forbids terrorism (hirabah). But if Bush rejected the idea that radical Muslim terrorism came out of religion or culture, he was right.

I disagree with the rest of the paragraph, though. Let's think about terrorism in the past few decades in a concrete and historical way, and it is obvious that it comes out of a reaction to being occupied militarily by foreigners. The Muslim Brotherhood developed its Secret Apparatus and began committing acts of terror in the 1940s in Egypt, which the British had virtually reoccupied in order to deny it to the Italians and then Germans. The Brotherhood assassinated pro-British judges and pro-British politicians (the British installed the Wafd Party in power). The Brotherhood had grown to some half a million members by 1948. Some Brothers also volunteered to fight in Palestine against the rise of Israel, which they saw as a colonial settler state.

After the Muslim Brotherhood assassinated Prime Minister Nuqrashi in 1948, it was banned and dissolved. It was briefly rehabilitated by Abdul Nasser in 1952-1954, but in 1954 it tried to assassinate him, and he banned it again. There was no major radical Muslim terrorism in Egypt in the period after 1954 and until Sadat again legitimized the Brotherhood in 1971, despite Egypt being a dictatorship in that period.

The intimate connection between foreign military occupation and terrorism can be seen in Palestine in the 1940s, where the Zionist movement threw up a number of terrorist organizations that engaged in bombings and assassinations on a fair scale. That is, frustrated Zionists not getting their way behaved in ways difficult to distinguish from frustrated Muslim nationalists who didn't get their way.

There was what the French would have called radical Muslim terrorism in Algeria 1954-1962, though the Salafis were junior partners of the largely secular FLN. French colonialists were targeted for heartless bombings and assassinations. This campaign of terror aimed at expelling the French, who had colonized Algeria in 1830 and had kept it ever since, declaring it French soil. The French had usurped the best land and crowded the Algerians into dowdy old medinas or haciendas in the countryside. The nationalists succeeded in gaining Algerian independence in 1962.

Once Sadat let the Muslim Brotherhood out of jail and allowed it to operate freely in the 1970s, to offset the power of the Egyptian Left, it threw up fundamentalist splinter groups like Ayman al-Zawahiri's al-Gihad al-Islami and Sheikh Omar's al-Gamaah al-Islamiyah. They were radicalized when Sadat made a separate peace with Israel in 1978-79 that permitted the Israelis to do as they pleased to the Palestinians. In response, the radical Muslims assassinated Sadat and continued to campaign against his successor, Hosni Mubarak. They saw the Egyptian regime as pharaonic and evil because it had allied with the United States and Israel, thus legitimating the occupation of Muslim land (from their point of view).

The south Lebanon Shiite groups, Amal and Hizbullah, turned to radical Muslim terrorism mainly after the 1982 Israeli invasion and subsequent occupation of South Lebanon, which is largely Shiite.

The radical Muslim terrorism of Khomeini's Revolutionary Guards grew in part out of American hegemony over Iran, which was expressed most forcefully by the 1953 CIA coup that overthrew the last freely elected parliament of that country.

Likewise, Hamas (the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood) turned to terrorism in large part out of desperation at the squalid circumstances and economic and political hopelessness of the Israeli military occupation of Gaza.

The Soviet invasion and occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980s was among the biggest generators of radical Muslim terrorism in modern history. The US abetted this phenomenon, giving billions to the radical Muslim ideologues at the top of Pakistani military intelligence (Inter-Services Intelligence), which in turn doled the money out to men like Gulbuddin Hikmatyar, a member of the Afghanistan Muslim Brotherhood (Jami'at-i Islami) who used to throw vials of acid at the faces of unveiled girls in the Kabul of the 1970s. The US also twisted the arm of the Saudi government to match its contributions to the Mujahidin. Saudi Intelligence Minister Turki al-Faisal was in charge of recruiting Arab volunteers to fight alongside the Mujahidin, and he brought in young Usamah bin Laden as a fundraiser. The CIA training camps that imparted specialized tradecraft to the Mujahidin inevitably also ended up training, at least at second hand, the Arab volunteers, who learned about forming covert cells, practicing how to blow things up, etc. The "Afghan Arabs" fanned back to their homelands, to Algeria, Libya, Yemen, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, carrying with them the ethos that Ronald Reagan had inspired them with, which held that they should take up arms against atheist Westerners who attempted to occupy Muslim lands.

To this litany of Occupations that produce radical Muslim terrorism, Chechnya and Kashmir can be added.

In contrast, authoritarian governments like that of Iraq and Syria, while they might use terror for their own purposes from time to time, did not produce large-scale indepdendent terrorist organizations that struck itnernational targets. Authoritarian governments also proved adept at effectively crushing terrorist groups, as can be seen in Algeria and Egypt. It was only in failed states such as Afghanistan that they could flourish, not in authoritarian ones.

So it is the combination of Western occupation and weak states that produced the conditions for radical Muslim terrorism.

Democratic countries have often produced terrorist movements. This was true of Germany, Italy, Japan and the United States in the late 1960s and through the 1970s. There is no guarantee that a more democratic Iraq, Egypt or Lebanon will produce less terrorism. Certainly, the transition from Baathist dictatorship has introduced terrorism on a large scale into Iraqi society, and it may well spill over from there into neighboring states.

Morocco has been liberalizing for some years, and held fairly above-board parliamentary elections in 2002. Yet liberalizing Morocco produced the al-Salafiyyah al-Jihadiyyah group in Tangiers that committed the 2003 Casablanca bombings and the 2004 Madrid train bombings.

Moreover, if democracy means majority rule and the expression of the general will, then it won't always work to the advantage of the US. Bush administration spokesmen keep talking about Syrian withdrawal being the demand of the "Lebanese people." But 40% of the Lebanese are Shiites, and 15% are probably Sunnis, and it may well be that a majority of Lebanese want to keep at least some Syrian troops around. Hizbullah has sided with Syria and Shaikh Nasrallah has called for a big pro-Syrian demonstration by Shiites on Tuesday.

For true democracy to flourish in Lebanon, the artificial division of seats in parliament so that half go to the Christian minority would have to be ended. Religious Shiites would have, as in Iraq, a much bigger voice in national affairs. Will a Lebanon left to its own devices to negotiate a social compact between rightwing Christians and Shiite Hizbullah really be an island of stability?

I'm all for democratization in the Middle East, as a good in its own right. But I don't believe that authoritarian governance produced most episodes of terrorism in the last 60 years in the region. Terrorism was a weapon of the weak wielded against what these radical Muslims saw as a menacing foreign occupation. To erase that fact is to commit a basic error in historical understanding. It is why the US military occupation of Iraq is actually a negative for any "war on terror." Nor do I believe that democratization, even if it is possible, is going to end terrorism in and of itself.

You want to end terrorism? End unjust military occupations. By all means have Syria conduct an orderly withdrawal from Lebanon if that is what the Lebanese public wants. But Israel needs to withdraw from the Golan Heights, which belong to Syria, as well. The Israeli military occupation of Gaza and the West Bank must be ended. The Russian scorched earth policy in Chechnya needs to stop. Some just disposition of the Kashmir issue must be attained, and Indian enormities against Kashmiri Muslims must stop. The US needs to conduct an orderly and complete withdrawal from Iraq. And when all these military occupations end, there is some hope for a vast decrease in terrorism. People need a sense of autonomy and dignity, and occupation produces helplessness and humiliation. Humiliation is what causes terrorism.

posted by Juan @ 3/7/2005 06:30:00 AM

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