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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Mar, 2005 11:01 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
But how many Italian spies would understand Arabic commands?


Actually, come to think about it: an Italian spy, in Iraq? Shouldn't he be able to understand Arabic?
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Mar, 2005 11:12 pm
Turns out he'd been spying for a very short time, LOL.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Mar, 2005 11:24 pm
I wonder if the captors "might" have given Sgrena secret battle plans that needed to be delivered in person so there could be no spies. The kidnapping was a cover for the operation. If we want to start throwing around "mights", Sgrena "might" be an Al Qaeda operative. The USA might be this and the USA might be that... and the moon "might" be made of cheese.

I do have sympathy for Sgrena's wounds... but to come back and hear her make these tasteless accusations and stir up more hatred among her people has caused me to wonder if she is hiding more than she admits. Spy? Heck, she "might" be one of them.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Mar, 2005 11:51 pm
If any media in Italy has enough guts to posit that question, "Is Sgrena A Spy?" it might just shut her up.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 12:24 am
Lets hope they do then, soon.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 12:46 am
Ican, I went back and went over all of our series of exchanges in regards the Kurds and I came away with the simple conclusion that I simply disagree with your guess that the reason that the Kurds are left alone is because they fought Saddam Hussien and so now they pose more of a threat than the Sunni's in Baghdad.

My reasons are again, simple, One is like I already pointed out, the Shiite's likewise staged a rebellion against Saddam Hussien.

Two is that neither one was successful and died horribly for it so I don't see how that would show any kind of strength that would help them now in regards being targets.

And lastly, I don't think a show of strength is relative factor on whether the insurgents will attack or not in Iraq as our Military and the coalition has been attacked since major operations ended.

But enough of this, like the other going story this is getting tiresome and we seem to be interrupting the ongoing obsession with the Italian incident.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 01:59 am
RexRed wrote:
Heck, she "might" be one of them.


Perhaps all is a conspirarcy by the far left ('Il Mainfesto') and the far right (Italian prime minister Berlusconi)?
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 06:45 am
Quote:
Print This Story E-mail This Story

Go to Original

"Foreign Forces Must Leave Iraq as Soon as Possible," Declares the Head of the Shiite Alliance
By Patrice Claude
Le Monde

Monday 08 March 2005

The elected Parliament will meet March 16. From our special envoy to Baghdad.

Permanent American bases in Iraq? The question seems so incongruous to His Most Austere "Eminence Abdul Aziz Al-Hakim," (as the leader of the Shiite party which won the January 30 elections identifies himself on his visiting card) that he almost bursts out laughing. "Ha! Ha! No. No one in Iraq desires the establishment of permanent foreign bases on our land. The United Nations Security Council resolutions are clear: it will be up to the elected Iraqi government, when the time comes, to give those forces a specific departure date. As soon as possible."

The head of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq - SCIRI, an embarrassing name today and one which should soon evolve towards something a little less radical - is, in fact, there to announce to us the imminent formation of this first legitimized government of the post-Saddam Hussein era. The parleys between the parties have been going on for five weeks and are nearly over.

"We've agreed to hold the first session of the elected National Assembly on March 16," he announces. The date is highly symbolic for the Kurdish minority, since it was on March 16, 1988 that the fallen regime had had around 5,000 residents of Halabja, in the north-east of the country, gassed. "We are hopeful that our discussions with our Kurdish brothers and the other groups we hope to bring into the government will be completed by this date." Seventeen years later to the day, and, excepting some dramatic event that is always possible in the prevailing political configurations today, Iraq will then have a head of state, a Prime Minister, and a government truly resultant from a national election in which, however imperfect it may have been, 58% of its citizens participated.

A member of one of the three great Shiite religious dynasties in the country, the Hodjatoleslam Al-Hakim spent more than twenty-three years in exile in Teheran, where he himself, and his older brother who was assassinated on his return to Iraq in May 2003, created the SCIRI. He was number one on the list of the 21 parties in the United Alliance, which won an absolute majority of the 275 seats in the new Assembly.

Nonetheless, the Fundamental Transitional Law, which American lawyers concocted before the partial restitution of their sovereignty to Iraqis on June 30, 2004, forces the Assembly to approve the Presidential Council by a 60% majority. Only the three members of the Presidential Council may propose the members of the next government from among those elected, beginning with its Prime Minister, most likely the head of the rival Islamist party, Daawa, Ibrahim Al-Jaffari. In order to impose the men and women of its choice, the Unified Alliance, which had announced its intention to include the largest number of parties, "Sunni and Christians included," into a kind of "government of national unity," therefore had to at first obtain the agreement of the second largest party in the Assembly, the so-called "Kurdish bloc," which controls 20% of the seats.

The Kurds have numerous and precise demands, which have been the source of much of the delay in forming the government. How many and which ministries for each of the competing parties? Even if the parties had apparently reached an understanding that the Presidential Council should be led by Jalal Talabani, a major Kurdish political personality who should become Head of State, and that his vice presidents should be, one from the Shiite tradition, and probably the other from the Sunni tradition, the totality of the process must still be carefully choreographed before it can be approved by the Assembly without any hitch.

With the gray beard and black turban of the "Sayyeds," the recognized descendants of the prophet among the Shiites, Abdul Aziz Al-Hakim agrees to one of the main Kurdish demands: the establishment of an Iraqi federation. To those on his side and elsewhere who fear that that will lead to a division of the country, the Sayyed responds: "More than 60 countries operate this way. If it can resolve problems in Iraq, why not?"

On the other hand, what is "unacceptable" in his eyes is to deliberate with the guerrilla movement. Ahmad Chalabi, the secular Shiite businessman who was accepted into the party and who will have a seat in the new Assembly, has recently let it be known that he has conducted "several meetings with the rebels to convince them to lay down their arms." Mr. Al-Hakim, for his part, refuses "to talk to these killers and criminals."

Last week, following the death of three members of the Badr organization - the former "Badr Brigade" that was SCIRI's military arm - in a police station, His Eminence launched a violent diatribe against the rampant "re-Baathization" of the security services. He repeats, "Everyone knows that the Baathists have infiltrated the army and the police. We must flush them out."

Translation: t r u t h o u t French language correspondent Leslie Thatcher.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 07:22 am
Quote:
Is Italy paying the price for Iraq ransoms?
Mon Mar 7, 2005 4:47 PM GMT
Printer Friendly | Email Article | RSS

By Phil Stewart

ROME (Reuters) - After a string of kidnappings in Iraq, Italians are wondering whether they are paying the price for a perceived state policy of paying ransom.

Ten Italians have been abducted in Iraq in the past year, a disproportionately high number by comparison with the United States or Britain, which staunchly oppose payments -- even if that means hostages die.

The last Italian hostage, award-winning war correspondent Giuliana Sgrena, was released unharmed by her Iraqi kidnappers on Friday amid reports of a multi-million-dollar pay-off which even a government minister called "likely".

But instead of celebrating Sgrena's release, Italy is in shock after an intelligence agent was shot dead by U.S. troops as he was ferrying her out of the country.

"We have to rethink our strategy in dealing with kidnappings," Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi was quoted as saying by Il Messaggero newspaper on Monday.

Berlusconi has always denied authorising the payment of ransoms in past kidnappings, saying only that his government had had to make "difficult choices". But speaking off the record, officials say large sums of money have changed hands.

Lucia Annunziata, former president of state television RAI, said on Monday that according to calculations made privately by government sources, Italy had paid Sunni guerrillas in Iraq nearly $15 million (7.8 million pounds) for hostages in the past year.

"The frequency of our kidnappings has transformed that which was an extraordinary, emergency option into plain and simple policy," said Annunziata, who worked in Iraq earlier this year as reporter for La Stampa newspaper.

IN THE DARK

La Stampa reported at the weekend that Italy might have kept the United States in the dark about the Sgrena mission for fear that it would disapprove and seek to block the exchange.

It said this lack of co-ordination meant U.S. forces did not realise Italian officials were on their way to Baghdad airport.

Sgrena herself has put a more sinister twist on the story, suggesting that the Americans deliberately fired at her to signal their disapproval of the negotiations.

"I think that the happy end to the negotiations may have bothered them. The Americans are against this type of operation. For them, war is war. Human life is worth little," she told Corriere della Sera newspaper.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said on Monday any suggestion the troops deliberately targeted them was "absurd".

Italy, long troubled by organised crime, has a culture of paying ransoms to home-grown kidnap gangs. But negotiations were hidden from view, especially after law was introduced more than a decade ago that made it a crime to pay cash for freedom.

Iraq hostage dramas have hit the nation particularly hard. Former hostages like security guard Fabrizio Quattrocchi, journalist Enzo Baldoni and charity workers Simona Torretta and Simona Pari have become household names.

Both Quattrocchi and Baldoni were killed by their captors.

A loyal U.S. ally, Berlusconi sent troops to Iraq despite strong opposition at home, and has been at pains during hostage dramas to show the nation that he has been personally involved in attempts to free kidnap victims.

Although the government denies ransoms have been handed over, its supporters speak openly of payments.

"Large sums were paid for the two Simonas, while for Baldoni, we didn't do it in time," Carlo Taormina, a lawmaker with Berlusconi's Forza Italia party, told Corriere della Sera.

In a sign of rising risks, Italy ordered all its journalists to leave Iraq last month.

"Italians in Iraq will be targeted more," Mustafa Alani, a security analyst at the Gulf Research Centre in Dubai, told Reuters. "Once you have the habit of paying ransom, certainly there is an element of encouraging these activities."


© Reuters 2005. All Rights Reserved.

0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 07:54 am
Here's a pic of the Sgrena car, found here.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 08:21 am
They all hit the block?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 09:33 am
Meanwhile, Italy's foreign minister disputed vehemently the U.S. claims in the Italian parliament, e.g. saying, the car was not speeding (travelling only at about 40 km/h) and that no one warned the car to stop, because there hadn't been a checkpoint at all. He said that immediately after the shooting two young American soldiers repeatedly apologized.

Calipari had also made "all the necessary contacts" with US and Italian officials about the hostage's release and the journey to the airport, Minister Gianfranco Fini added.


But as we know by now: this can't be the truth because he is no member of the US-Forces.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 09:58 am
walter, your last statement should be bolded it is so true. (you know how I mean it)

I just ran across that story, my links on my server hasn't been working too well lately but here is the story I ran across.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/ITALY_IRAQ_HOSTAGE?SITE=ASIAONE&SECTION=HOME

Italy Foreign Minister Disputes U.S. Claim

By ALESSANDRA RIZZO
Associated Press Writer


ROME (AP) -- Italy's foreign minister said Tuesday that American troops killed an Italian intelligence officer in Iraq by accident, but he disputed Washington's version of events, demanding a thorough U.S. investigation of the shooting and that "the culprits be punished."

Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini told parliament that the car carrying the intelligence officer and an ex-hostage to freedom was not speeding and was not ordered to stop by U.S. troops at a checkpoint, contrary to what U.S. officials say.

However, he also dismissed allegations that the Friday shooting that killed Nicola Calipari was an ambush - a claim made by the released hostage, journalist Giuliana Sgrena.

"It was an accident," Fini told lawmakers. "This does not prevent, in fact it makes it a duty for the government to demand that light be shed on the murky issues, that responsibilities be pinpointed, and, where found, that the culprits be punished."

Calipari was shot as the car carrying him and Sgrena, who had been kidnapped Feb. 4, headed to the Baghdad International Airport. Sgrena and another intelligence officer in the car were wounded.

The shooting outraged Italy and rekindled questions over its involvement in Iraq, where Premier Silvio Berlusconi sent 3,000 troops. But the government has made it clear it is not considering a withdrawal following Calipari's killing.

Fini said the car was traveling at no more than 25 mph. He said a light was flashed at the car after a curve, and gunfire - lasting 10 or 15 seconds - started immediately afterward, disputing U.S. military claims that several attempts were made to stop the vehicle.

Italy's "reconstruction of the tragic event ... does not fully coincide with what has been communicated by U.S. authorities," said Fini. He added that the "sequence of acts carried out by the U.S. soldiers before the shooting" is one of the main discrepancies.

In a statement released Friday night, the U.S. 3rd Infantry Division, which controls Baghdad, said the vehicle was "traveling at high speeds" and "refused to stop at a checkpoint."

A U.S. patrol "attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car," it said. "When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others."

Fini said the hypothesis that the shooting was the result of an ambush, as suggested by Sgrena, is "groundless."

The journalist said the shooting might have been intentional because the United States opposes Italy's policy of negotiating with kidnappers. The White House has dismissed the claim as "absurd," and two Italian prosecutors investigating the killing said there was no evidence pointing to a possible ambush, according to news reports.

In Baghdad, a video purportedly made by the insurgents who kidnapped Sgrena claimed the group did not receive any ransom for her release.
The tape showed footage of Sgrena shortly before she was freed, and the claim was made by a man off-camera reading a statement. It was not possible to verify the authenticity of the tape, which was dropped off anonymously at the offices of Associated Press Television News in Baghdad.

The voice on the tape said Sgrena was released with no ransom "even though we were offered that."

It added that "the resistance refuses (to be paid). We hope that all journalists around the world would be released."

A written statement shown on screen and read by the man off-camera alleged that U.S. forces deliberately targeted Sgrena.

"America has cheated its close ally Italy by attempting to assassinate the Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena," the statement said. "The resistance has learned from its private sources in the heart of America that the CIA decided to kill the journalist."

The Bush administration rejected suggestions that U.S. troops deliberately opened fire on the car.

"Nothing could be further from the truth," State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said.

Fini stressed that the U.S. government is an allied country that has promised full cooperation.

On Monday, Italy bade farewell to Calipari at a solemn funeral in a Rome basilica that drew 20,000 mourners.

Several Rome newspapers said a lack of communication between Italian intelligence and U.S. forces may have led to the gunfire. La Repubblica daily, citing unidentified U.S. military sources, said Italian officials did not send notice of Sgrena's liberation or of the type of vehicle she was being carried in.

But Fini said that Calipari, an experienced officer who had negotiated the release of other hostages in Iraq in the past, "made all the necessary contacts with the U.S. authorities," both with those in charge of airport security and with the forces patrolling areas next to the airport.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 10:01 am
Brand X wrote:
Here's a pic of the Sgrena car, found here.


Apparently NOT the car.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 10:01 am
revel wrote:
I just ran across that story ...


Thanks for posting that, revel: I'd thought, someone had done it already (all this happened more than six hours ago).
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 10:09 am
I just heard Tim Robinson live on CNN say that no one yet knows exactly where the incident took place. What???

He also said Negroponte was travelling on the Baghdad -airport highway at about the same time.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 10:09 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Meanwhile, Italy's foreign minister disputed vehemently the U.S. claims in the Italian parliament, e.g. saying, the car was not speeding (travelling only at about 40 km/h) and that no one warned the car to stop.
Calipari had also made "all the necessary contacts" with US and Italian officials about the hostage's release and the journey to the airport, Minister Gianfranco Fini added.


But as we know by now: this can't be the truth because he is no member of the US-Forces.


When that story claimed the car was not 'speeding' it contradicts Sgrena's 'Truth' story, of course her 'Truth' story contradicts one of her other reports that they were not speeding. I think she was elated about being freed and wasn't very coherent on the escape situation and is making things up as she goes.

If the brave fellow thart covered her and died in the process was on her, how much could she see or know?

Quote:
'My truth'

By Giuliana Sgrena
Monday, March 7, 2005 Posted: 9:03 AM EST (1403 GMT)

Editor's Note: The following is a translation of a March 6, 2005, article by journalist Giuliana Sgrena, reprinted here with permission from the Italian newspaper Il Manifesto. Sgrena was shot and wounded by U.S. I'm still in the dark. Friday was the most dramatic day of my life. I had been in captivity for many days. I had just spoken with my captors. It had been days they were telling me I would be released. I was living in waiting for this moment. They were speaking about things that only later I would have understood the importance of. They were speaking about problems "related to transfers."

I learned to understand what was going on by the behavior of my two guards, the two guards that had me under custody every day. One in particular showed much attention to my desires. He was incredibly cheerful. To understand exactly what was going on I provocatively asked him if he was happy because I was going or because I was staying. I was shocked and happy when for the first time he said, "I only know that you will go, but I don't know when." To confirm the fact that something new was happening both of them came into my room and started comforting me and kidding: "Congratulations they said you are leaving for Rome." For Rome, that's exactly what they said.

I experienced a strange sensation because that word evoked in me freedom but also projected in me an immense sense of emptiness. I understood that it was the most difficult moment of my kidnapping and that if everything I had just experienced until then was "certain," now a huge vacuum of uncertainty was opening, one heavier than the other. I changed my clothes. They came back: "We'll take you and don't give any signals of your presence with us otherwise the Americans could intervene." It was confirmation that I didn't want to hear; it was altogether the most happy and most dangerous moment. If we bumped into someone, meaning American military, there would have been an exchange of fire. My captors were ready and would have answered. My eyes had to be covered. I was already getting used to momentary blindness. What was happening outside? I only knew that it had rained in Baghdad. The car was proceeding securely in a mud zone. There was a driver plus the two captors. I immediately heard something I didn't want to hear. A helicopter was hovering at low altitude right in the area that we had stopped. "Be calm, they will come and look for you...in 10 minutes they will come looking for." They spoke in Arabic the whole time, a little bit of French, and a lot in bad English. Even this time they were speaking that way.

Then they got out of the car. I remained in the condition of immobility and blindness. My eyes were padded with cotton, and I had sunglasses on. I was sitting still. I thought what should I do. I start counting the seconds that go by between now and the next condition, that of liberty? I had just started mentally counting when a friendly voice came to my ears "Giuliana, Giuliana. I am Nicola, don't worry I spoke to Gabriele Polo (editor in chief of Il Manifesto). Stay calm. You are free." They made me take my cotton bandage off, and the dark glasses. I felt relieved, not for what was happening and I couldn't understand but for the words of this "Nicola." He kept on talking and talking, you couldn't contain him, an avalanche of friendly phrases and jokes. I finally felt an almost physical consolation, warmth that I had forgotten for some time.

The car kept on the road, going under an underpass full of puddles and almost losing control to avoid them. We all incredibly laughed. It was liberating. Losing control of the car in a street full of water in Baghdad and maybe wind up in a bad car accident after all I had been through would really be a tale I would not be able to tell. Nicola Calipari sat next to me. The driver twice called the embassy and in Italy that we were heading towards the airport that I knew was heavily patrolled by U.S. troops. They told me that we were less than a kilometer away...when...I only remember fire. At that point, a rain of fire and bullets hit us, shutting up forever the cheerful voices of a few minutes earlier.

The driver started yelling that we were Italians. "We are Italians, we are Italians." Nicola Calipari threw himself on me to protect me and immediately, I repeat, immediately I heard his last breath as he was dying on me. I must have felt physical pain. I didn't know why. But then I realized my mind went immediately to the things the captors had told me. They declared that they were committed to the fullest to freeing me but I had to be careful, "the Americans don't want you to go back." Then when they had told me I considered those words superfluous and ideological. At that moment they risked acquiring the flavor of the bitterest of truths, at this time I cannot tell you the rest.


Source
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 10:11 am
your welcome, walter.

Since foxfrye said we should post our feelings about the links we post I guess I should point out that the FM of Italy makes a lot of sense to me.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 10:18 am
Gel, regarding your post of: 1210751 about Shiite alliance asking us to leave.

If they do in fact get their pick of PM and they get enough votes of people wanting us to leave, it will be interesting to see if we actually leave. I wonder will they ask us to leave completly or just to scale down?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 10:20 am
Brand X wrote:
When that story claimed the car was not 'speeding' it contradicts Sgrena's 'Truth' story, of course her 'Truth' story contradicts one of her other reports that they were not speeding. I think she was elated about being freed and wasn't very coherent on the escape situation and is making things up as she goes.

If the brave fellow thart covered her and died in the process was on her, how much could she see or know?


As far as I understood, the Italian Foreign Minister told the lower chamber of the Italian about the official investigations and not what about a newspaper article.

But I may be wrong here again.
0 Replies
 
 

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