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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 03:28 pm
Quote:
I don't understand any of it. But I'll risk much to defend your right to think it.


Well, here's the thing: we do think differently.

See, we don't really think that people sitting in front of their computers are the ones taking risks these days.

It's the people that have been killed in Iraq, on any side, who are taking risks for what they believe in.

What you really mean to say is that you're willing to risk others to defend our right to think it.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 03:29 pm
Gelisgesti wrote:
Quote:
"Legal technicality." That is a fine example of spin. The damn law getting in the way and keeping these poor folks from winning their lawsuit.


I suppose you can recite the body of that 'legal technicality' for the forum?
If you can't bring better than that please don't bring anything ....


Here's your case.

Quote:

866 So. 2d 1231, *; 2003 Fla. App. LEXIS 1580, **;
28 Fla. L. Weekly D 460

NEW WORLD COMMUNICATIONS OF TAMPA, INC., d/b/a WTVT-TV, Appellant, v. JANE AKRE, Appellee.


Case No. 2D01-529

COURT OF APPEAL OF FLORIDA, SECOND DISTRICT

866 So. 2d 1231; 2003 Fla. App. LEXIS 1580; 28 Fla. L. Weekly D 460


February 14, 2003, Opinion Filed

SUBSEQUENT HISTORY: [**1] Rehearing granted by, Clarified by, Certification denied by New World Communs. of Tampa, Inc. v. Akre, 2004 Fla. App. LEXIS 2293 (Fla. Dist. Ct. App. 2d Dist., Feb. 25, 2004)


PRIOR HISTORY: Appeal from the Circuit Court for Hillsborough County; Ralph Steinberg, Judge.

DISPOSITION: Reversed and remanded.

CASE SUMMARY:
PROCEDURAL POSTURE: The Circuit Court, Hillsborough County (Florida), entered a final judgment on a jury's verdict awarding damages to plaintiff reporter and against defendant television station after the jury found that the television station had violated Florida's private sector whistle-blower's statute, Fla. Stat. ch. 448.102 (Supp. 1998). The television station appealed.

OVERVIEW: The television station hired the reporter and her husband. They began working on a story about the use of synthetic bovine growth hormone. They, and the television station's management and lawyers, disagreed over the story's content. Each time the television station asked them to provide supporting documentation or to make changes, the reporter accused the station of attempting to distort the story to favor the manufacturer of the hormone. The television station then notified them that it was terminating their employment contracts. They responded by threatening to file a complaint with the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) alleging that the station had "illegally" edited the still unfinished report in violation of an FCC policy. The reporter and her husband sued. After the jury found the television station violated Florida's whistle-blower statute, Fla. Stat. ch. 448.102 (Supp. 1998), and awarded damages to her, the appellate court found that the FCC's policy had not been adopted as a rule. As a result, it concluded that the policy was not a "law, rule, or regulation" that the statute required be violated before an actionable claim was involved under the statute.

OUTCOME: The judgment was reversed and the case was remanded for entry of a judgment in favor of the television station.

JUDGES: KELLY, Judge. CASANUEVA, J., and GREEN, OLIVER L., SENIOR JUDGE, Concur.

OPINIONBY: KELLY

OPINION:

[*1232] KELLY, Judge.

New World Communications of Tampa, Inc., d/b/a WTVT-TV, a subsidiary of Fox Television, challenges a judgment entered against it for [**2] violating Florida's private sector whistle-blower's statute, section 448.102, Florida Statutes (Supp. 1998). We reverse.

In December 1996, WTVT hired the appellee, Jane Akre, and her husband, Steve Wilson, as a husband-and-wife investigative reporting team. Shortly after Akre and Wilson arrived at WTVT, they began working on a story about the use of synthetic bovine growth hormone ("BGH") in Florida dairy cattle. Their work on this story led to what could be characterized as an eight-month tug-of-war between the reporters and WTVT's management and lawyers over the content of the story. Each time the station asked Wilson and Akre to provide supporting documentation for statements in the story or to make changes in the content of the story, the reporters accused the station of attempting to distort the story to favor the manufacturer of BGH.

In September 1997, WTVT notified Akre and Wilson that it was exercising its option to terminate their employment contracts without cause. Akre and Wilson responded in writing to WTVT threatening to file a complaint with the Federal Communications Commission ("FCC") alleging that the station had "illegally" edited the still [**3] unfinished BGH report in violation of an FCC policy against federally licensed broadcasters deliberately distorting the news. The parties never resolved their differences regarding the content of the [*1233] story, and consequently, the story never aired.

In April 1998, Akre and Wilson sued WTVT alleging, among other things, claims under the whistle-blower's statute. Those claims alleged that their terminations had been in retaliation for their resisting WTVT's attempts to distort or suppress the BGH story and for threatening to report the alleged news distortion to the FCC. Akre also brought claims for declaratory relief and for breach of contract. After a four-week trial, a jury found against Wilson on all of his claims. The trial court directed a verdict against Akre on her breach of contract claim, Akre abandoned her claim for declaratory relief, and the trial court let her whistle-blower claims go to the jury. The jury rejected all of Akre's claims except her claim that WTVT retaliated against her in response to her threat to disclose the alleged news distortion to the FCC. The jury awarded Akre $ 425,000 in damages.

While WTVT has raised a number of challenges to the judgment obtained [**4] by Akre, we need not address each challenge because we find as a threshold matter that Akre failed to state a claim under the whistle-blower's statute. The portion of HN1Go to the description of this Headnote.the whistle-blower's statute pertinent to this appeal prohibits retaliation against employees who have "disclosed, or threatened to disclose," employer conduct that "is in violation of" a law, rule, or regulation. § 448.102(1)-(3). The statute defines a "law, rule or regulation" as "including any statute or . . . any rule or regulation adopted pursuant to any federal, state, or local statute or ordinance applicable to the employer and pertaining to the business." § 448.101(4), Fla. Stat. (1997). We agree with WTVT that the FCC's policy against the intentional falsification of the news - which the FCC has called its "news distortion policy" - does not qualify as the required "law, rule, or regulation" under section 448.102.

The FCC has never published its news distortion policy as a regulation with definitive elements and defenses. Instead, the FCC has developed the policy through the adjudicatory process in decisions resolving challenges to broadcasters' licenses. The policy's roots can be [**5] traced to 1949 when the FCC first expressed its concern regarding deceptive news in very general terms stating that "[a] licensee would be abusing his position as a public trustee of these important means of mass communications were he to withhold from expression over his facilities relevant news of facts concerning a controversy or to slant or distort the news." See Chad Raphael, The FCC's Broadcast News Distortion Rules: Regulation by Drooping Eyelid, 6 Comm. L. & Policy 485, 494 (2001) (quoting Editorializing by Broadcast Licensees, 13 F.C.C. 1246, 1246 (1949)).

The policy did not begin to take shape, however, until 1969 when the FCC was called upon to investigate complaints regarding news distortion. Raphael at 494. Notably, the FCC did not take the initiative to investigate these complaints, but rather acted only after Congress referred complaints it had received to the FCC. In a series of opinions issued in licensing proceedings between 1969 and 1973, the FCC stated that when considering the status of a broadcaster's license, it would take into consideration proven instances of "deliberate news distortion," also called "intentional falsification [**6] of the news" or "rigging or slanting the news." In re CBS Program "Hunger in America", 20 F.C.C. 2d 143, 150-51 (1969). This series of FCC opinions has come to be known as the FCC's news distortion policy.

Akre argues that the FCC's policy is a rule as defined by section 120.52(15), Florida Statutes [*1234] (1997), which provides:

HN2Go to the description of this Headnote."Rule" means each agency statement of general applicability that implements, interprets, or prescribes law or policy or describes the procedure or practice requirements of an agency and includes any form which imposes any requirement or solicits any information not specifically required by statute or by an existing rule.

Even if we agreed with Akre that the FCC's news distortion policy was a "rule" as defined by section 120.52(15), her argument overlooks the fact that HN3Go to the description of this Headnote.the whistle-blower's statute specifically limits the definition of "rule" to an "adopted" rule. § 448.101(4). "This limitation to 'adopted' material only appears deliberate, and well serves the public by hinging civil liability upon matters of which due notice, actual or imputed, has been conveyed." Forrester v. John B. Phipps, Inc., 643 So. 2d 1109 (Fla. 1st DCA 1994). [**7] We find the legislature's use of the word "adopted" in the statute to be a limitation on the scope of conduct that will subject an employer to liability under the statute.

It is undisputed that the FCC's news distortion policy has never been "adopted" as defined by section 120.54, Florida Statutes (1997). In that regard, Akre notes that federal agencies may announce general policies and interpretive principles through the adjudicative process and argues that the fact that "the FCC adopted the news distortion policy through an adjudicative process does not affect its validity or enforceability as a matter of federal law." This argument is flawed in two respects. First, HN4Go to the description of this Headnote.federal law recognizes a dichotomy between rulemaking and adjudication; it does not equate the two. See Bowen v. Georgetown Univ. Hosp., 488 U.S. 204, 102 L. Ed. 2d 493, 109 S. Ct. 468 (1988) (Scalia, J., concurring). Second, HN5Go to the description of this Headnote.while federal agencies may have discretion to formulate policy through the adjudicative process, the same is not true under Florida law. The Florida Legislature has limited state agencies' discretion to formulate policy through the adjudicative process by [**8] requiring agencies to formally adopt each agency statement that fits the definition of a "rule" under section 120.52. See § 120.54. As noted above, the legislature's use of the word "adopted" in the whistle-blower's statute was deliberate and was intended to limit the scope of conduct that will subject an employer to liability. This limitation is consistent with the legislature's requirement that agency statements that fit the definition of a "rule" be formally adopted. Recognizing an uncodified agency policy developed through the adjudicative process as the equivalent of a formally adopted rule is not consistent with this policy, and it would expand the scope of conduct that could subject an employer to liability beyond what Florida's Legislature could have contemplated when it enacted the whistle-blower's statute.

Because the FCC's news distortion policy is not a "law, rule, or regulation" under section 448.102, Akre has failed to state a claim under the whistle-blower's statute. Accordingly, we reverse the judgment in her favor and remand for entry of a judgment in favor of WTVT.

Reversed and remanded.

CASANUEVA, J., and GREEN, OLIVER L., SENIOR JUDGE, Concur.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 03:39 pm
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 04:01 pm
Note to Revel: None of the insurgents are Americans.

Note to Cyclop: Unless you are the reincarnation of Jeanne Dixon, you probably don't have the capability to state what other people think or mean.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 04:14 pm
Quote, "Note to Cyclop: Unless you are the reincarnation of Jeanne Dixon, you probably don't have the capability to state what other people think or mean." Gee, Fox, seems like you're stepping on to quicksand.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 04:28 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Quote from above, "The Dallas Morning News

DALLAS - (KRT) - After commanding the operation that toppled Saddam Hussein, Gen. Tommy Franks suggested that President Bush publicly mark an end to major combat in Iraq - an idea that led to the president's politically controversial appearance aboard an aircraft carrier.

Bush's announcement, under a banner that read "Mission Accomplished," took place just six weeks after the start of the war, generating harsh criticism as being a premature celebration and political grandstanding."

If numbers mean anything in war, "major combat operatings" really began after Bush made the announcement "the end of major combat operations." No, Lash, we are not privy to any clues to military terminology as used by Bush; but then only a few righties liike yourself understands his rhetoric. Have you recently asked anybody in the US Army or Marines now in Iraq if they thought "the end of major combat operations" occurred after Bush's speech?


Yeah, CI. I have spoken with several service personnel since the war started, and they are all aware when major combat operations ceased.

But, I don't need to ask anybody. I understand English. I understand that "major combat operations" is action taken in pursuit of a defined military objective. In this case--the objective was to remove the regime of Saddam Hussien from power in Iraq. That goal was accomplished--and major combat operations ceased. They could have set another combat objective, and continued or re-started major combat operations--but they didn't.

You just want to say it is a lie--or erroneous. It's not. Did people continue to die? Yes. Nobody said they didn't. Was Iraq under firm control of US/coalition forces when the defined objective was met? No. Nobody said it was.

That mission WAS accomplished.

If you weren't so bitter, you'd have no problem admitting it.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 04:28 pm
"you"---> the collective you.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 04:33 pm
Who's bitter? If it wasn't so serious a matter, watching Bush declare "end of major combat operations" on that aircraft carrier with his leather flight jacket, I see nothing but incompetence on how most things concerning this war was handled - before and after that speech.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 05:05 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Note to Revel: None of the insurgents are Americans.



The point of which you missed completly was that those in Iraq are not happy about targeted; the civilians didn't choose to fight for my rights to think the way I do. (referring to your previous post) I imagine they wished that we were more sucessful in the aftermath of the war in keeping a lid on the explosion of the resistance which was our responsiblity as occupuyers so that they would not now be dying so heavily.

Note to Cyclop: Unless you are the reincarnation of Jeanne Dixon, you probably don't have the capability to state what other people think or mean.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 05:42 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
OE doesn't believe lives have been saved as a result of the invasion of Iraq and this is in the face of a long and well documented history of Saddam's regime.


Actually, Fox, that's not what I said. I said 'I for one don't believe that the war "saved hundreds of thousands of lives that otherwise would be lost."'

Because you're implying that war was the one and only possibility there was. Which would be an outright lie.

If it takes a war to save hundreds of thousands of lives, it would be sad enough.

But if you go to war because you think all the alternatives are not to be bothered about, it's a scandal.

I'm not saying that the UN sanctions were perfectly working. I'm not saying, I'd prefer Saddam in power to what's happening now.

But was there no other possibility? I don't think so. The United Nations didn't think so. A majority of all the countries around the world didn't think so. A majority of all the people around the world didn't think so.

And, Foxy, many of them might have good reasons. So it might be worth listening to what they are saying. I believe it is unproductive to say something like

Quote:
I wonder if I'll ever live long enough to understand how liberals think the way liberals think. Maybe I just don't want to.


Nevertheless, I have to agree with your next sentence:

Quote:
I prefer to focus on the good, the possibilities, the probabilities, the hope, and the capacity of humankind to improve and become better.


I agree 100%. But that was my position before March 2003, too. I was trying to focus on the good, the possibilities, the probabilities, the hope, and the capacity of humankind to improve and become better.

Yet the US government decided to do the opposite.

Then, you say

Quote:
The U.S. wants less capabilities for terrorists to accomplish their stated purpose to harm us, hurt us, destroy us.


and I have to ask you what the connection would be??? Because almost every nation on the globe supported the US in achieving this goal. Think back to what happened in Afghanistan.

Do you think everybody who opposes the unilateral invasion is with the 9/11 terrorists, Fox?

Frankly, I hated when Bush said "you are either with us or with the terrorists". Because it means: when you criticize us, you're a terrorist, too. Black and white. Good versus Evil.

If that's what you believe, so be it.

I don't.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 05:59 pm
old europe, Well stated, and I agree with your position. This administration is more frightful than Saddam ever was to the American People. Bush is responsible for the death of some 20,000 innocent Iraqis, many women and children by his preemptive attack on false justifications. Terrorist activity has increased world-wide since March 2003. We needed to get the UN and the world community to agree with any actions by the US, but as you said, Bush failed by saying "you're either with us or with the terrorists." He didn't and couldn't understand world diplomacy.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 06:03 pm
Quote:

JURY VERDICT OVERTURNED
ON LEGAL TECHNICALITY cow

Welcome to the online news source for anyone who drinks milk or consumes other dairy products…and depends on the news media to report suspected health concerns accurately and honestly.

Here you will find behind-the-scenes details about how a large share of America's milk supply has quietly become adulterated with the effects of a synthetic hormone (bovine growth hormone, or BGH) secretly injected into cows…and how pressure from the hormone maker Monsanto led Fox TV to fire two of its award-winning reporters and sweep under the rug much of what they discovered but were never allowed to broadcast.

After a five-week trial and six hours of deliberation which ended August 18, 2000, a Florida state court jury unanimously determined that Fox "acted intentionally and deliberately to falsify or distort the plaintiffs' news reporting on BGH." In that decision, the jury also found that Jane's threat to blow the whistle on Fox's misconduct to the FCC was the sole reason for the termination... and the jury awarded $425,000 in damages which makes her eligible to apply for reimbursement for all court costs, expenses and legal fees.

Fox appealed and prevailed February 14, 2003 when an appeals court issued a ruling reversing the jury, accepting a defense argument that had been rejected by three other judges on at least six separate occasions. CLICK HERE for more details on latest ruling. CLICK HERE to view how Fox13 reported the ruling.

The whistle-blowing journalists, twice refused Fox offers of big-money deals to keep quiet about what they knew, filed their landmark lawsuit April 2, 1998 and survived three Fox efforts to have their case summarily dismissed. It is the first time journalists have used a whistleblower law to seek a legal remedy for being fired by for refusing to distort the news. Steve and Jane are now considering an appeal to the Florida state Supreme Court.

The journalists happen to be married to each other and this website, created by their friend and former television news producer Jon Duffey, was posted on the day the whistleblower suit was filed. It continues to provide details of the suit and subsequent appeals, as well as recent developments regarding rBGH and other genetically engineered foods.

Click the buttons to the right to learn more about this lawsuit and the controversy surrounding milk and other genetically modified foods and how they are being covered in the media, learn what you can do to help, and even post your own thoughts on our Bulletin Board. New developments in the journalists' lawsuit and the latest important news about BGH and GE foods and media coverage issues are posted regularly. You are invited to return often and click the blue box at the top of this page to keep up to date with these important issues.



Source

Because the FCC's news distortion policy is not a "law, rule, or regulation" under section 448.102, Akre has failed to state a claim under the whistle-blower's statute. Accordingly, we reverse the judgment in her favor and remand for entry of a judgment in favor of WTVT.

Reversed and remanded.

CASANUEVA, J., and GREEN, OLIVER L., SENIOR JUDGE, Concur.

All you needed was this part ... I asked for the 'judgement'!
Your lack of understanding renders this conversation an exercise in futility that I really dont care to pursue.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 06:22 pm
Kliik Here

This should not be missed

Shocked Laughing Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 06:28 pm
Good link, Gel!

Quote:
Newspeak, doublethink, the mutability of the past. He felt as though he were wandering in the forests of the sea bottom, lost in a monstrous world where he himself was the monster. He was alone. The past was dead, the future was unimaginable. What certainty had he that a single human creature now living was on his side? And what way of knowing that the dominion of the Party would not endure for ever? Like an answer, the three slogans on the white face of the Ministry of Truth came back to him:

WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 06:53 pm
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&e=10&u=/nm/20050304/ts_nm/iraq_italy_release_dc

Italy Seeks U.S. Answers Over Hostage Shoot-Out

2 hours, 51 minutes ago Top Stories - Reuters


By Roberto Landucci and Robin Pomeroy

ROME (Reuters) - Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi demanded explanations from the United States on Friday after American forces in Iraq (news - web sites) wounded freed hostage Giuliana Sgrena and shot dead a secret service agent.



Berlusconi, a close ally of President Bush (news - web sites), said he was stunned by the shooting and had summoned the U.S. ambassador to explain how American troops had fired on Sgrena as the Italian reporter was being driven to Baghdad airport.


"We were turned to stone when the officials told us about it on the telephone," Berlusconi told a news conference. "I immediately summoned the U.S. ambassador ... who will have to clarify the behavior of the U.S. military for such a serious incident, which someone will have to take responsibility for."


Sgrena, a reporter for the Rome-based Communist daily Il Manifesto, was seized in the Iraqi capital on Feb. 4. She was last seen in a video released on Feb 16. pleading for her life and urging U.S.-led forces to quit Iraq.


She was handed over to three Italian agents on Friday who drove her toward the airport, but the car came under U.S. fire at a checkpoint, Berlusconi said.


"The agent, Nicola Calipari covered Sgrena with his body, he was hit by a bullet which unfortunately was fatal," he said. All three other passengers were wounded. Sgrena was treated for a shrapnel wound in her shoulder at a U.S. military hospital.


Bush said he regretted the loss of life in the shooting. The Defense Department said multinational forces had fired at the car when it approached a checkpoint at high speed, later discovering who its occupants were.


JOY OVERSHADOWED


Berlusconi said he personally knew Calipari who had worked on previous hostage release cases in Iraq and that the agent's wife worked in his Palazzo Chigi office.


The man, a former policeman, was also known to Sgrena's partner Pier Scolari who he met in the days running up to her release.


"He was an extraordinary man, a man who gave me the certainty that Giuliana would come home. When I learned he had been killed by American soldiers ... I felt a pain which for a moment overshadowed the joy of (Giuliana's) liberation."


Italy's mixed feelings over the botched release of 57-year-old Sgrena are in stark contrast to the joy which greeted the return of two aid workers, Simona Pari and Simona Torretta, hostages released last September.


Like the "two Simonas," Sgrena was always against the presence of foreign troops in Iraq.


Italy has some 3,000 troops in Iraq, the fourth largest foreign contingent after U.S., British and South Korean forces.


While Sgrena was freed, there was no word on the fate of French journalist Florence Aubenas, who was seized in Baghdad on Jan. 5. Aubenas made a desperate appeal for help in a video tape released by Iraqi insurgents on Tuesday.


(Additional reporting by Giuseppe Fonte and Gavin Jones)
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 08:03 pm
A JOKE

Joe died and came before Saint Peter at Heaven's Gate.

Saint Peter asked Joe, "What significant good have you worked to accomplish in your life."

Joe answered, "I really haven't done anything of significance that I can recall. I've generally avoided contentious situations whenever and whereever I anticipated encountering them."

Saint Peter said, "Surely Joe, you can think of at least one situation where you attempted to do significant good.

Joe said, "Well, while I was walking along a public path through the woods, I saw some bullies violently caressing a young woman and riping off her clothes. There were three of them, each over 6 and a half feet tall, and each probably waying over 280 pounds. I asked them nicely to stop and think about how wrong what they were doing was. They laughed and continued caressing and riping. I yelled at them to stop or I would call the police. They laughed again and yelled the police are too busy with other things to stop us. I picked up a large rock and threatened to beat their heads in if they didn't stop. They laughed again, so I hit the biggest one in the head with my rock!"

Saint Peter exclaimed, "Well that certainly is an impressive example of trying to do the right thing. When did this happen?

Joe looked at his watch and answered, "About five minutes ago."
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 08:20 pm
The incident with the death of the Italian agent is serious, and typical of the American way of stranging allies.

Let's see.

1. The Iraqi extremists make a mistake. They kidnap a journalist from a US ally, but the "wrong" journalist. A Communist, anti-American journalist.

2. This event opens the eyes of some Italian left-wingers about the true nature of at least a big chunk of the Iraqi resistance. Points for Bush & Berlusconi.

3. A little late, the Iraqi extremists notice that they have blundered it. They liberate the journalist and the Italian Secret service goes to Baghdad.

4. Then comes this stupid, senseless incident, telling a lot about American trigger-happiness. An ally officer is killed, the journalist is wounded, the Italian government recalls his ambassador in the US. Points against Bush.

If ican711nm's joke is in this context, then it is plain stupid.
If it isn't, then I didn't understand why he posted it on this thread.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 09:28 pm
OE writes
Quote:
I'm not saying that the UN sanctions were perfectly working. I'm not saying, I'd prefer Saddam in power to what's happening now.

But was there no other possibility? I don't think so. The United Nations didn't think so. A majority of all the countries around the world didn't think so. A majority of all the people around the world didn't think so.
Quote:
And, Foxy, many of them might have good reasons (to oppose invading Iraq). So it might be worth listening to what they are saying. I believe it is unproductive to say something like

Quote:
I wonder if I'll ever live long enough to understand how liberals think the way liberals think. Maybe I just don't want to.



Well you see, OE, I think the primary reasons were what I've already said. Also, we who do believe the US did the right thing for the right motives resent just as much being told we're war mongers, that we rushed to war, that many have died unnecessarily because of our actions, etc. We resent this partly because it is offensive as well as unproductive, but also for more practical reasons that dovetail with the next comment:

Quote:
Frankly, I hated when Bush said "you are either with us or with the terrorists". Because it means: when you criticize us, you're a terrorist, too. Black and white. Good versus Evil.


And I hate it when I read about, listen to, or talk face to face talk with brave young men and women who have been over there and hear them say that they believe the terrorists are encouraged and urged to double their attacks because they hear the pacifists bashing the President and the military The terrorists well know our history of tucking tail and running when things get rough, especially when the people at home are complaining and protesting. I do believe if you put the President's words in context, however, he was clearly saying you are either with us or against us and anybody who gives aid, comfort, support, or shelter to the terrorists will be considered a terrorist. (Different meaning and intent from the way you remembered it.) Diplomatically imprudent? Perhaps. But those of us who like this President like him mostly because he speaks from the heart and he says what he means. At the time when the WTC and Pentagon were still smouldering, it was the right thing to say.

If you've read most of my posts, you know that I fully respect true conscientious objectors and/or the true pacifists. But I believe honorable conscientious objectors and/or pacifists extend their point of view to all sides. They are never guilty of giving aid, comfort, or encouragement to one side to the detriment of another. In this matter, the liberals that I most criticize are those who seem to place sympathy and/or understanding with the terrorists and none with our leaders and military.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 09:34 pm
fbaezer wrote:
If ican711nm's joke is in this context, then it is plain stupid. If it isn't, then I didn't understand why he posted it on this thread.
It isn't. It's in another context. It's in the context of the US invasion of Iraq.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 10:52 pm
Foxfyre wrote:


I don't doubt this. You are right, and, obviously, something had to be done. Yet I could think of quite a few possibilities to change the situation without a war.

Foxfyre wrote:
Meanwhile the U.N. inspectors reported being stonewalled and thwarted at every turn despite periodic ultimatums delivered to Saddam.


Foxfyre wrote:
We invaded Iraq however, not for humanitarian reasons, but rather to deal with the WMD that almost everybody, included most of those in the UN, believed Saddam had and obliterate the terrorist training camps inside Iraq.


See, the point was to create a scenario where Saddam would be scared enough to comply with everything the UN/US demanded. In my opinion, that is what took place. The UNMOVIC inspections between November 02 and March 03 got access to virtually any site, being able to conduct unannounced inspections all over Iraq.
If this was not enough and doubts remained - why not continue the inspections? Why were the CIA and Pentagon so reluctant to demand inspections of the places they claimed they had proof of WMD being hidden there? In fact, they didn't even want to share their intelligence with the UN and the UNMOVIC team.

However, it is not true that 'almost everybody' thought that Saddam had WMD. Actually, the vast majority of people in Europe thought, by March 2003, that there were no WMD whatsoever to be found.
So did most of the UN. Which is why the UN Security Council, even after Powell gave his speech, presenting pictures and theories but not much proof, decided against military intervention.
In fact, Hans Blix, chairman of the UNMOVIC commission, said in his briefing, that "the Commission has not at any time during the inspections in Iraq found evidence of the continuation or resumption of programmes of weapons of mass destruction or significant quantities of proscribed items - whether from pre-1991 or later."

It's really interesting to read through the reports of the UNMOVIC team. I don't know if you've done that already or not, but I think it's really interesting.

Re 'terrorist training camps' - I have seen no proof of that so far. And I am fairly sure there was no connection whatsoever between Al-Qaeda and Iraq.

I am aware that Saddam once had promised or paid money to the families of suicide bombers in Israel, and you could, of course, call that 'sponsoring of international terrorism'. Nevertheless - no connection with Al-Qaeda whatsoever.

I am not sure to what you are referring here:

Foxfyre wrote:
When the WMD were not found, what they did find would have been justification enough for the invasion.


I just don't know. Therefore I'm not sure I would agree with you or not.


Foxfyre wrote:
And I hate it when I read about, listen to, or talk face to face talk with brave young men and women who have been over there and hear them say that they believe the terrorists are encouraged and urged to double their attacks because they hear the pacifists bashing the President and the military


Now, I am absolutely certain that I did never attack the military. It's a conflict though. Therefore a short 'anecdote':

During the last months of WWII, the Nazi party asked people at home to contribute whatever they could - clothes, blankets, etc. - because the soldiers were so badly equipped that a lot would freeze to death.
So: contributing would mean prolonging the war. Not contributing would mean letting many more drafted soldiers die.

No analogy intended. It's a conflict you have to face whenever there is a war. Yet I believe you can be against the war and against Bush. Especially against Bush, because his responsibility for soldiers dying in the streets of Iraq is a gazillion times higher than that of all pacifists combined.

Foxfyre wrote:
I do believe if you put the President's words in context, however, he was clearly saying you are either with us or against us and anybody who gives aid, comfort, support, or shelter to the terrorists will be considered a terrorist. (Different meaning and intent from the way you remembered it.) Diplomatically imprudent? Perhaps.


Well, well... I think it was imprudent. He could have clarified. He didn't. I think he didn't want to. It was one of those things so many people confused, later on: 9/11 - Iraq. I still can't see the connection.

Foxfyre wrote:
But those of us who like this President like him mostly because he speaks from the heart and he says what he means. At the time when the WTC and Pentagon were still smouldering, it was the right thing to say.


See above. Honestly, in the days immediately after 9/11, I was thinking the President was handling the situation remarkably well. Later, not.


Foxfyre wrote:
In this matter, the liberals that I most criticize are those who seem to place sympathy and/or understanding with the terrorists and none with our leaders and military.


I place sympathy with the soldiers. Not with the military (as an institution), less with the 'leaders' (the word sends shivers down my spine), and none with the terrorists.

right... this rather long... It's a pleasure to talk to you, tough, Fox!
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