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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 07:43 am
gell, what does pimped mean in this context? Do you mean he was provoking so you responded?

I have to admit that I made everything ten times worse with my little ranting and raving that was immature on my part.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 08:57 am
Foxfyre wrote:

Freeduck wrote
Quote:
From Fox's article. It should be noted that the US military has a policy of not counting enemy dead. So, of course it isn't being reported.


Well usually it's just Revel who misses the point, but this time you both missed the point. The point is that some--alphabet media, liberals in general, etc.--when they are opposed to something like the Iraq war--will report ONLY the information that makes it look like the whole effort is doom and gloom and rivers of blood.


I think you missed my point, Fox. The guy you posted the letter from complained that the media didn't talk about how many enemy fighters they had killed while taking losses. He used this to show that the media is biased. I pointed out that they might have a hard time reporting how many enemy fighters were killed if noboby is counting them. Obviously this puts a dent in your 'point' as you can't clearly illustrate media bias just because they happen to report the bad stuff without all the positive spin you'd like to see on it.

The rest of your 'point' is noted as more of the usual and as for that I will just put my name behind Joe Nation's as I agree with him.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 09:46 am
This article that I read a few days ago actually addresses the negativity of the Europeans towards our efforts in Iraq, but given the atmosphere of gloom and doom on this thread, I think certain paragraphs in this piece are relevant (plus, I just think he's a master with words).


Quote:
I was very moved by the story of Mr Richard Kral, a Slovak gentleman found staggering drunk down a snowy trail a few days back. He'd been motoring through the Tatra Mountains in his Audi when he got buried by an avalanche. Opening the window and frantically clawing at the snow, he grasped that he couldn't dig his way out faster than the white stuff would come into the car and bury him. So he looked around and his eye fell on the 60 half-litre bottles of beer he happened to have with him. He had a drink and midway through realised that he could urinate on the snow to melt it.

And he did: "Man Peed Way out of Avalanche," as one headline put it. "It was hard," the plucky Slovak told the local press, "and now my kidneys and liver hurt.

"I read that item on January 29. The next day Iraq voted and, scanning the coverage from Toronto to Sydney via Dublin, London, Paris and Berlin, I had an eerie sense of déjà vu. The Western media appear to have decided that any good news out of Iraq is one almighty neocon snow job and the only thing to do is emulate Mr Kral and urinate all over it.

The obsession of the anti-Americans misses the point: it's not about America. Surely even Fisk and the other "experts" aren't so obtuse that they can't see that the one undeniable fact of the election is that there are millions of Iraqis who want change. That doesn't mean they want to turn Basra and Kirkuk into Cleveland and Buffalo, only that they want something other than the opposing cul-de-sacs of secular pan-Arabist dictatorship and death-cult Islamism, which dead-end alternatives are all the region's had to offer for decades.

For want of a better expression, they'd like a "Third Way": so, just as America has New Democrats and Britain has New Labour, here come the New Shia. Ayatollah Sistani isn't like Khomeini and the other old-school mullahs, and the emergence of a moderate pluralist Shia-led federation in Iraq will be as devastating to the Teheran regime's long-term prospects as any Israeli-American strike on their nuke facilities. As the Arab networks' election-day coverage instinctively grasped, the American angle to this story will be increasingly peripheral.

Now I take the point that "democracy" - as in elections - isn't every thing. In the development of successful nations, the universal franchise is usually the last piece of the puzzle, as it was in Britain. Anyone can hold an election: Mugabe did; so did Charles Taylor, the recently retired Psycho-for-Life of Liberia. The world's thugocracies have got rather skilled at being just democratic enough to pass muster with Jimmy Carter and the international observers: they kill a ton of people, put it on hold for six weeks and then, when the UN monitors have moved on, pick up their machetes and resume business as usual.

I prefer to speak of "liberty" or, as Bush says, "freedom", or, as neither of us is quite bold enough to put it, capitalism - free market, property rights, law of contract, etc. That's why Hong Kong is freer than Liberia, if less "democratic". If I had six or seven centuries to work on things, I wouldn't do it this way in Iraq or Afghanistan. But the "war on terror" is more accurately a race against time - to unwreck the Middle East before its toxins wreck South Asia, West Africa, and eventually Europe. The doom-mongers can mock Bush all they want. But they're spending so much time doing so, they've left themselves woefully uninformed on some of the fascinating subtleties of Iraqi and Afghan politics that his Administration turns out to have been rather canny about.

Will the naysayers continue forcing their ever more strained dribble of urine over the Bush landscape? Well, the Parisian journalist Frederic Royer has just launched a new weekly tabloid called L'Anti-Americain. The first issue includes a parodic diary by George W Bush with the entry: "Ask the CIA: Where's China?"

Hilarious! Bush is so dumb he can't even find the real 21st-century superpower on a map! As it happens, it was the Canadian prime minister, a renowned sophisticate and indeed a fluent franco-phone, who last year declared in public that China was the most important nation in the southern hemisphere.

If that 1999 New Hampshire primary-season gag is the highlight of M Royer's first issue, it seems to me that Europe's vast anti-American pissoir is coming down with a bad case of intellectual cystitis.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/02/08/do0802.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2005/02/08/ixopinion.html
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 10:29 am
Yes. Well, that article is something we can all sink our teeth into, even though it starts with the unlikely and ends with a sort of petering out. Still wonderful wordplay.

He's wrong, over hopeful or whistling past the graveyard with this:
Quote:
For want of a better expression, they'd like a "Third Way": so, just as America has New Democrats and Britain has New Labour, here come the New Shia. Ayatollah Sistani isn't like Khomeini and the other old-school mullahs, ...


but he get points, from me at least, for this:

Quote:
I prefer to speak of "liberty" or, as Bush says, "freedom", or, as neither of us is quite bold enough to put it, capitalism - free market, property rights, law of contract, etc. That's why Hong Kong is freer than Liberia, if less "democratic".


As regards the pisser's story: I would hazard a guess that the liquid would have minimal effect on closely packed snow and would re-freeze rather quickly. I prefer the old tale of the fellow who was trapped inside an ice-covered igloo who managed to force out a large enough turd which he fashioned as it froze into a sharpened tool that he used to chop his way out.

Joe( Let's see if either method ends up on Survivor) Nation
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 10:34 am
Survivor: Freezing cold... Hmmm... Not enough bikini shots.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 11:31 am
I am descended from a long line of tool-crappers.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 11:51 am
My dad worked for a subsidiary of your firm........ shinola
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 11:52 am
He probably knows where his elbow is, huh?
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 12:00 pm
If he doesn't, I'll bet you do.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 12:00 pm
Are you kidding,just before he passed he walked around singing that song over and over and over
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 12:12 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
If he doesn't, I'll bet you do.


This is true. I have always known my elbow from a hole in the ground.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 12:12 pm
Any luck getting jp to make your avatar scroll?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 12:26 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Any luck getting jp to make your avatar scroll?


I'd be happy with just a few right or left clicks.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 12:29 pm
JustWonders wrote:
... given the atmosphere of gloom and doom on this thread, I think certain paragraphs in this piece are relevant ...
Quote:
... I prefer to speak of "liberty" or, as Bush says, "freedom", or, as neither of us is quite bold enough to put it, capitalism - free market, property rights, law of contract, etc. That's why Hong Kong is freer than Liberia, if less "democratic". If I had six or seven centuries to work on things, I wouldn't do it this way in Iraq or Afghanistan. But the "war on terror" is more accurately a race against time - to unwreck the Middle East before its toxins wreck South Asia, West Africa, and eventually Europe. The doom-mongers can mock Bush all they want. But they're spending so much time doing so, they've left themselves woefully uninformed on some of the fascinating subtleties of Iraqi and Afghan politics that his Administration turns out to have been rather canny about. ...


JustWonders, I especially like that entire paragraph.

Now let's look and see how the case for pessimism is doing?

The pessimists alleged that Bush stole the 2000 election. They were subsequently proven wrong by numerous independent investigatory groups.

The pessimists alleged that Bush stole the 2004 election by stealing the Ohio vote. They were subsequently proven wrong by an independent investigatory group.

The pessimists alleged that Bush was the first to ask the DOD for a plan for invading Iraq. They were subsequently proven wrong by an independent investigation that showed his predecessor was the first.

The pessimists alleged that Bush was convinced that Iraq didn't possess ready-to-use WMD when he ordered the Iraq invasion. They were subsequently proven wrong by an independent investigatory group that showed that both Bush and his predecessor were convinced Iraq possessed ready-to-use WMD.

The pessimists alleged that Bush was forcing the Iraqi people to adopt democracy. They were subsequently proven wrong by the huge number of Iraqis that risked their lives to vote January 30th.

The pessimists now allege that the Iraqis will ask us to leave, before we finish helping them repair all their infrastructure. Rolling Eyes

I bet the Iraqis will ask us to leave after helping them finish repairing all their infrastructure, as well as after helping them finish exterminating would-be-subverters of their democracy.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 12:34 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Any luck getting jp to make your avatar scroll?


I'd be happy with just a few right or left clicks.


Maybe you would. It might take a little bit of scrolling to make her happy, though.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 12:46 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Any luck getting jp to make your avatar scroll?


I'd be happy with just a few right or left clicks.


Maybe you would. It might take a little bit of scrolling to make her happy, though.


Everyone's a critic. Laughing
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 01:06 pm
Shoulda kicked in a couple more bucks for the 'auto-scroll'.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 01:16 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
Our efforts to rebuild Iraq, which are, at best, secondary, are necessarily hampered by our ultimate purpose for Iraq, which is a vital front on the war on terror, which is why the terrorists have chosen to make a stand there. That way, we do not have to face them here at home.
I agree!

To win the war on terror, we must win the war on terror in Iraq; to win the war on terror in Iraq, the US must help Iraq secure democracy in Iraq.

Isn't that great? Isn't it great when two peoples can serve their own self-interests by serving each other's self-interest. I love it!
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 01:23 pm
Why doesn't this surprise me?

Quote:

US al-Qaeda warning revealed
From correspondents in Washington
11feb05

EIGHT months before the September 11 attacks the White House's then counterterrorism adviser urged then national security adviser Condoleezza Rice to hold a high-level meeting on the al-Qaeda network, according to a memo made public today.

"We urgently need such a principals-level review on the al-Qaeda network," then White House counterterrorism adviser Richard Clarke wrote in the January 25, 2001 memo.

Mr Clarke, who left the White House in 2003, made headlines in the heat of the US presidential campaign last year when he accused the Bush White House of having ignored al-Qaeda's threats before September 11.

Mr Clarke testified before inquiry panels and in a book that Rice, his boss at the time, had been warned of the threat. Rice is now US Secretary of State.

However, Ms Rice wrote in a March 22, 2004 column in The Washington Post that "No al-Qaeda threat was turned over to the new administration".

Mr Clarke told a commission looking into intelligence shortcomings prior to the attacks, "There's a lot of debate about whether it's a plan or a strategy or a series of options - but all of the things we recommended back in January were those things on the table in September. They were all done, but they were done after September 11."

The document was released by the National Security Archive, an independent US group that solicits government documents for public review.

Another document released by the archive said that from April to September 2001, the US Federal Aviation Administration received 52 intelligence reports on al-Qaeda, including five that mentioned hijackings and two that mentioned suicide operations, according to today's New York Times.

The Times quoted a previously undisclosed report by a commission set up to investigate the September 11 attacks on New York and Washington.

The report criticises the FAA for failing to strengthen security measures in light of the reports and describes as "striking" the false sense of security that appeared to predominate in the civil aviation system before the attacks, the paper said.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 02:44 pm
I've been away today and just saw this news on BBC.

From now onwards, I'll consider even the worst conspirational thoughts re the USA as "might be true" - since it could well be that after an important dinner, a big football match or some election this will be published officially.
0 Replies
 
 

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