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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2005 03:19 pm
Brand X wrote:

Yeah, isn't funny how the sanctions stopped the ability to get parts to fix infrastructure items, yet somehow Saddam was able to inport the necessary supplies to buil how many mansions??? It just doesn't make that paragraph of the story seem very credible. I'm sure the water running in those mansions was clean by treating it with some 'dual usage' chemical.


So then one would wonder what was the point of the sanctions. If Saddam was able to get around them, and only the people were hurt by them, why didn't we just lift them?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2005 03:35 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Brand X wrote:

Yeah, isn't funny how the sanctions stopped the ability to get parts to fix infrastructure items, yet somehow Saddam was able to inport the necessary supplies to buil how many mansions??? It just doesn't make that paragraph of the story seem very credible. I'm sure the water running in those mansions was clean by treating it with some 'dual usage' chemical.


So then one would wonder what was the point of the sanctions. If Saddam was able to get around them, and only the people were hurt by them, why didn't we just lift them?


We did.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2005 03:52 pm
Bravo!
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2005 04:00 pm
Gelisgesti wrote:
Do I believe I'm reading Mr.Peabody's improbable history here ..... or is that from fractured fairy tales?
Neither! That's a more than 50 year old joke you still don't get. Laughing
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2005 08:04 pm
http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=World&cat=Iraq

Iraq Insurgent Attacks Kill More Than 50

1 hour, 49 minutes ago

By MARIAM FAM, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A car bomb detonated by remote control exploded Thursday in Baghdad, killing two Iraqis but missing a U.S. military convoy as insurgent violence claimed more than 50 lives. Clashes between Iraqi police and rebels erupted along a major highway southeast of the capital.


With violence on the rise after the Jan. 30 election, Iraqi officials announced they would seal the country's borders for five days this month around a major Shiite religious holiday. Last year during the holiday, about 180 people were killed in suicide attacks at Shiite shrines.


The car bomb detonated on Tahrir Square in the heart of Baghdad, shattering the vehicle and setting several other cars on fire. At least two Iraqis were killed and two others were wounded, U.S. military spokesman Lt. Col. James Hutton said.


An American military patrol had just passed through the area but there were no U.S. casualties, Hutton said.


Most of the violence Thursday targeted Iraq (news - web sites)'s security forces, part of an apparent insurgent campaign to undermine public confidence after police and soldiers managed to prevent catastrophic attacks during the elections.


The biggest attack occurred in Salman Pak, 12 miles southeast of Baghdad, when insurgents attacked Iraqi policemen who came to look for weapons, showering them with machine-gun fire, rocket-propelled grenades and mortar rounds, police said.


Iraq's Interior Ministry said 14 policemen were killed, 65 were wounded and six were missing after the two-hour gunbattle. Four insurgents also died in the fighting, the ministry said.


American troops evacuated some of the wounded, the U.S. command said, and residents said American helicopters were prowling the skies.


"We were on patrol to search for weapons," wounded policeman Waad Jassim said from his hospital bed. "When we arrived, they opened heavy fire at us. There were many of them, and some were charging out of houses."


Elsewhere, bodies of 20 Iraqi truck drivers who had been shot were found dumped on a road, their hands bound behind their backs, police Capt. Ahmed Ismail said. Some of the trucks were owned by the government, Ismail said.


Gunmen fired on an Iraqi police patrol Thursday in Baqouba, north of Baghdad, triggering a gunbattle that killed a civilian and wounded two police officers, officials said. Assailants also killed a police lieutenant in Baqouba.


Five bodies in Iraqi National Guard uniforms were found Thursday in the insurgent stronghold of Ramadi, 70 miles west of Baghdad. Hospital director Ala al Ani said residents reported that the slain men were among 13 guardsmen who went missing recently. Two insurgents were killed Thursday in clashes with U.S. forces north of Ramadi, residents and hospital officials said.


A strong explosion shook the Rahmaniyah neighborhood of western Baghdad late Thursday, and residents said the blast occurred near a small Shiite mosque. Witnesses said there were casualties but police had no report.


A videotape obtained Thursday by Associated Press Television News showed gunmen killing four blindfolded men who identified themselves as Iraqi policemen. The video showed the four young men sitting cross-legged on the floor of a room. A date stamp on the video indicated it was recorded Feb. 3.


Several gunmen with assault rifles standing just steps away from the captives fired repeatedly at the men one by one, shooting them in the back of their heads.


Elsewhere, a body was found riddled with bullets in Mosul, and in the northern oil center of Kirkuk, a roadside bomb exploded several minutes after a U.S. military patrol passed, killing one Iraqi, police said. In Baghdad, gunmen shot to death a hospital receptionist.


Election officials had expected to release final results Thursday from the vote for a National Assembly, provincial councils and a regional parliament for the autonomous Kurdish north. On Wednesday, however, election commission spokesman Farid Ayar said the deadline would not be met because ballots in about 300 boxes had to be recounted.


"We don't know when this will finish," Ayar said. "This will lead to a little postponement in announcing the results."
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2005 08:08 pm
Some balance for Revel's post:
http://216.26.163.62/2005/ss_iraq_01_18.html
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2005 08:10 pm
theollady wrote:
Quote:
It must suck to be you.




Why I don't 'discuss' here no more, GEL
And why I probably wont read this and a few other forums anymore...
Too many wise-cracking sick people, and too little respect for other readers.


For the most part I agree with you. Although I have found myself attempting to do the same it is not as enjoyable here as it used to be when I first came here.

If you don't mind me asking, do you (or anyone else) happen to know of other forums which are different than here? I came here from lycos when it closed and have been here since so I don't know too many places.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2005 08:13 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Some balance for Revel's post:
http://216.26.163.62/2005/ss_iraq_01_18.html


Are you trying to say the media shouldn't report deaths and delayed election results and if they do they are unbalanced?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2005 08:18 pm
Quote:
More recently, a major news agency's website lead read: "Suicide Bomber Kills Six in Baghdad" and "Seven Marines Die in Iraq Clashes." True, yes. Comprehensive, no. Did the author of this article bother to mention that Coalition troops killed 50 or so terrorists while incurring those seven losses? Of course not


From Fox's article. It should be noted that the US military has a policy of not counting enemy dead. So, of course it isn't being reported.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2005 09:25 pm
Where the Sunis are coming from ...

Quote:



'The US is behaving as if every Sunni is a terrorist'

For centuries they have comprised the ruling class, but since the fall of Saddam everything has changed for Iraq's Sunni Arabs. This weekend's elections are likely only to reinforce their disaffection, reports Ghaith Abdul-Ahad

Wednesday January 26, 2005
The Guardian

Two weeks ago, Adnan al-Janabi, the then minister of state in the Iraqi interim government of premier Ayad Allawi, and a tribal leader of one of Iraq's largest predominantly Sunni tribes, was arrested, handcuffed and insulted by US soldiers manning a checkpoint leading into the Green Zone where he worked. Only when a senior bodyguard of the prime minister intervened was he released. That same day he resigned from government.

"You know, and other brother ministers know," he wrote, "how many insults we suffer on the hands of the occupation forces, and the Iraqi people suffer from far more. We have been patient telling ourselves maybe we can do something ourselves to reduce the effect of the occupation. But arresting one of the ministers in such a humiliating way can mean only one thing: that the sovereignty the security council talked about means nothing to the occupation force."

Janabi, apart from being one of Iraq's most revered tribal sheikhs, is also a highly educated man who found himself in an awkward position after the war.

He leads one of the largest tribes in what is known now as the triangle of death south of Baghdad. He is also a western-educated former Opec official who knows how to talk to the Americans as well as the UN. Finally, when he puts on his traditional Arab dress, he becomes the charming sheikh who can reason with everyone including Ayatollah Sistani. For almost two years now he has been trying very hard to bridge the ever growing gap between his community and the Americans; as fruitless a task as one might imagine.

Janabi is one of the few Sunni leaders still involved in this weekend's elections. Most others have announced their decision to boycott them. Nevertheless, when one junior American officer was fed up with this bald, thin man who insisted on knowing why he couldn't get to his office - despite his US-approved ministerial ID card - he was arrested on the spot.

Janabi's ordeal has been experienced by most of his community, a community trying to come to terms with the realities of the post-Saddam era; a change not helped by being the target of a near-daily American campaign of intimidation.

What happened to him might be a coincidence, but what is happening to his Sunni community has proven to be far more complicated than that. In Iraq - as is the case in most of the Muslim world - the Sunnis were always the natural-born leaders of the community. In Iraq's case this meant that they tended to look with a mixture of anxiety and scorn at the poor Shia in the south and the Kurds in the north; these fears and prejudices were exploited by those who came to control Iraq, from the Ottomans to Saddam via the British.

During four long centuries of Ottoman rule, the Sunni Arabs were automatically chosen to fill positions in the army and state. The British used the officers and statesmen already trained by the Ottomans to build the new country they named Iraq - especially when the Shia rebelled against them. And what started as secular socialist rule under the Ba'athists ended as a tribal Sunni regime led by Saddam Hussein.

Because the Sunnis always found work within the state, they never developed a political leadership of their own. So when the Americans toppled Saddam and disbanded the army and the reviled security services, which just happened to be the two largest employers of the Sunni community, they found themselves not only without leadership but disenfranchised and with a legitimate sense of persecution. And their worst nightmare, the revenge of the Shia and Kurds, seemed ever closer as the state ministries were purged of Ba'athists, a policy perceived by many in the community as anti-Sunni. "[The Americans] made every single mistake they could have thought of to alienate the Sunnis," said Janabi. "The US is behaving as if every Sunni is a terrorist."

A whole community woke up one day and found the realities of their everyday lives were shattered. They retreated into the two main forces that governed their semi-nomadic society for centuries, the tribe and the religion. And it was religion that dominated.

"When the Americans first came, all the tribal leaders wanted to jump on board the wagon - they all wanted money and contracts and jobs for their kids. It was us, the mujahideen who fired the first bullets," said a young Sunni cleric in Falluja, resting a Kalashnikov on his lap a few hours before the American attack on November.

That religious factor mixed with nationalistic sentiment gave birth to the insurgency that is now engulfing Iraq.

To get a picture of how their politics have turned to violence, you must visit the neighbourhoods around Baghdad, such as the one in which five men, all in their early 30s, sit around in their safe house, weapons laid against the walls. These are the insurgents that Americans call terrorists; their neighbours and families call them resistance; and they call themselves mujahideen, or holy warriors. They are Sunni Arabs. Two of them were working in Saddam's security service and the rest are normal people.

They say they are fighting the Americans because they are occupiers. They hate the Shia because they are backed by Iran, and they are killing the police because they are collaborators and because they are all Shia.

"Our main aim is to drive the Americans out and then everything will go back to normal, as it was before," said one of the men. According to Janabi and other officials who have met with insurgents in an attempt to involve them in a political solution, more than 80% of the insurgency is based on the fear and sense of repression that the Sunni community is facing. It now manifests itself in a nationalist resistance movement that hasn't yet developed a political programme.

Having a tribal name that associated you with a Sunni-dominated area or tribe was for centuries a guarantee of access to the government and a good job, but these same names now land you in American custody if you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

A widespread loathing of the Americans combined with a fear of Shia revenge is likely to lead to a very low turnout among Sunnis this weekend. For most, a Shia government is inevitable - and so, in turn, is the likelihood of further disturbance. A senior moderate Sunni official who is running in next week's elections was asked what would happen if the Shia won a landslide victory. He replied: "We will all join the armed resistance."
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2005 11:41 pm
Our efforts to rebuild Iraq, which are, at best, secondary, are necessarily hampered by our ultimate purpose for Iraq, which is a vital front on the war on terror, which is why the terrorists have chosen to make a stand there. That way, we do not have to face them here at home.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 01:43 am
Revel wrote
Quote:
Are you trying to say the media shouldn't report deaths and delayed election results and if they do they are unbalanced?


Freeduck wrote
Quote:
From Fox's article. It should be noted that the US military has a policy of not counting enemy dead. So, of course it isn't being reported.


Well usually it's just Revel who misses the point, but this time you both missed the point. The point is that some--alphabet media, liberals in general, etc.--when they are opposed to something like the Iraq war--will report ONLY the information that makes it look like the whole effort is doom and gloom and rivers of blood.

Nobody is saying that bad stuff shouldn't be reported and it is--by BOTH sides. I just object to those who try very hard to locate and post the most dismal perspective possible and almost never post something like the soldier in Iraq writes that illustrates so clearly how warped and one-sided the doom and gloom perspective is.

Balanced shows it ALL--the bad and the good. So if some of you want to post stuff that illustrates your perpetual negative, pessimistic, dark outlook on things, some of the rest of us enjoy the truth of a different persepctive as well. . .for balance.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 06:05 am
(Please note that the new thread policy is to proclaim anyone who doesn't act like a cheerleader for this administration's actions and efforts a pessimist while labeling the rah-rah dancing icon folks optimists. In addition, even though the optimists hardly ever utter a discouraging word on Iraq, their view is the balanced one while the so-called pessimistic postings, even though they more closely adhere to a little something I like to call truth and reality, get the whack job and the insults.

Let me see if I can clarify this further: post anything you want that would get you a booster award at the local GOP office and you are balanced, okay by us, and if you can't think of anything to say say "It must suck to be you." or something of equal intellectual depth. )

So here's the thing: I don't want the US to be in Iraq. Period. I never did. I was mis-led and lied to in order to get me to believe that we needed to be there, but now that we are there under the false pretenses offered, the boomers for this administration want me to like it or lump it and get with the program. Well, no dice.

The driver of this big bus we call the USA has landed us in a quagmire, mud up to the hubs and getting deeper by the day. Am I going to help get us out? You bet I am. I am going to push and haul and heave till we get up and out, but you are not likely to hear much cheering from me about the driver or his abilities and ideas.

You will hear cheers from me about the others with me in the mud working to get us out of this mess. (And from the friend I have right now in Bagdad) This is the wrong war at the wrong time in the wrong place and saying shiny nice things about it isn't going to change that and, like it or lump it, that's the way it is February 11, 2005.

((BY THE WAY: wouldn't it suck to have your name signed to a comment like "It must suck to be you."?? The writer and signer of that bon mot not only owes his intended target an apology, but ought to apologize to himself or herself as well.))

Joe( Pass the tow chains) Nation
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 06:20 am
So little do you know, Joe.

I'm not a cheerleader for this Admin., my main point is that the expectations for reconstruction are unrealistic in the midst of a war. I understand that you disagree with the whole deal, that's fine.

As far as my comment to Gel, another thing that don't don't know as much about as you think you do, he/she has done the same to me without apology.

So if you want to be hall monitor, know the facts, otherwise stay out of other posters business.

Brand(I'm the authority of what I think and know, not Joe)X
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 06:21 am
What did Iraq ever do to harm a Single American?

How is it logical to attack and kill the people of Iraq when we all know and admit the perpetrators are thumbing their noses at us in Afghanistan!!
WE ARE NOT RIDDING THE WORLD OF TERRORISM BY LEVELLING IRAQ ... WE ARE TRAINING MORE AND MORE AND MORE TERRORIST!!! WHAT ARE WE PAYING FOR WITH OUR CHILDREN'S BLOOD AND FUTURE!!!!

We have lost this war and the reason is not that we were wrong to begin with, and we were ..... but that we realize the fact, and continue.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 06:53 am
Oh, hehe heh heh, I didn't think about the possibiltiy that he hit me first would be a defense, but then I don't know everything. I just know I wouldn't sign such a comment with my name. Suit yourself.

Joe( Gels, there will be no hitting your playmate!!)Nation Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 07:05 am
Can I just poke him wih a stick
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 07:10 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
Can I just poke him wih a stick


Yeah, lets's try that. Laughing

Because you and I will never be on the same page so to speak, I tried to understand you a few pages back as others did when you were discussing with Bill.

So let's leave it at that. :wink:
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 07:22 am
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20050211/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ?SITE=OHCPO&SECTION=HOME

Insurgents Attack Bakery, Mosque in Iraq

By JASON KEYSER
Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- A car bomb exploded outside a Shiite mosque northeast of Baghdad on Friday, killing 13 and injuring more than 40, a police official and witnesses said, while masked men sprayed gunfire into a crowd at a bakery in a mostly Shiite neighborhood in the capital, killing 11 people, police said.

The violence came as Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld made a surprise visit and said that Iraqis, not Americans, must defeat the country's insurgency.

The car bomb in Balad Ruz, 45 miles northeast of Baghdad, took place as services at the mosque ended, a witness said. Iraqi National Guard troops were among the dead and wounded, police Col. Tahseen Mohammed said.

Mohammed said local residents reported that a pickup truck loaded with vegetables and parked in front of the mosque looked suspicious. When the Iraqi troops approached the truck, it exploded, he said.

The bakery attack in the New Baghdad area occurred after gunmen in several cars blocked the street in front of the shop with their vehicles and entered the shop. They fired on the workers, killing 11 people, an Iraqi police investigator said.

Although the motive was unclear, the attack is the latest in a series of violent incidents that have occurred since the Jan. 30 national elections, raising questions whether the landmark balloting will lead quickly to stability in this fractured country.

On Thursday, insurgents ambushed Iraqi police who had come to an area about 10 miles southeast of Baghdad to search for weapons. The Interior Ministry said 14 policemen were killed, 65 were wounded and six were missing after the two-hour gunbattle. Four insurgents also died in the fighting, the ministry said.

Final results have not been released, but partial figures indicate Shiite Muslims linked to the powerful clergy will have the largest number of seats in the 275-member National Assembly. Interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi's ticket was running third behind a Kurdish alliance.

Elsewhere, an aide to Iraq's most revered Shiite Muslim cleric was injured in an assassination attempt in Baghdad after receiving threats from militants opposed to his support for Iraq's elections, a relative of the man said Friday.

Sheik Ammar al-Hilali, a representative of Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, was shot seven times by gunmen who opened fire from two cars as he left sunset prayers at a mosque on Tuesday, said the relative, Ali al-Lafta.

The relative said Sheik al-Hilali has received many threats from Sunni Arab extremists who opposed his support for Iraq's landmark Jan. 30 elections.

Ayatollah al-Sistani himself was a strong backer of the vote and even declared voting a religious duty for every man and woman, contributing to a huge turnout among Shiites, who comprise about 60 percent of Iraq's 26 million people.

However, many Sunni Arabs, estimated at 20 percent of the population, apparently stayed away from the polls, either out of fear of insurgent attacks or in support of a boycott call by their clergy.

During Friday prayers at a mosque in a Sunni district of Baghdad, the preacher urged Iraqis to unite to "push out the enemy," meaning the Americans, "by any legitimate means."

Rumsfeld flew to the tense northern city of Mosul for a meeting with commanders and troops before traveling on to Baghdad. In his address at the Mosul airfield, Rumsfeld told American troops: "You have shown that America is in fact a land of liberators, not a land of occupiers."

But, he added: "It is the Iraqis who have to over time defeat the insurgency."

Rumsfeld is the most senior U.S. official to arrive in Iraq since the elections. Rumsfeld's spokesman Larry di Rita said the purpose of the trip was "to recognize the great success of the elections."

As American officials speak of the need for the Iraqis to shoulder more responsibility for battling the insurgents, the rebels have been stepping up their attacks against Iraqi police and soldiers, hoping to undermine their morale and the public's confidence in their capabilities.

More than 50 people have been killed since late Wednesday in insurgency-related violence, and many of the victims were from the security services.

© 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. Learn more about our Privacy Policy.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Feb, 2005 07:27 am
Bill got pimped .... as did his interpreters ..... the only thing understandale was my first question, which he labeled 'idiotic'....it was en garde from that point on. He pimped me, I returned

sheesh, talk about thick
0 Replies
 
 

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