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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 04:58 pm
gav wrote:
The British Army done it on the streets of my home town and killed 14...does that sound ridiculous to you Bill? Mad
Not unless you use the same, obviously exaggerated description, no. Where's your home town?
0 Replies
 
gav
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 05:12 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
gav wrote:
The British Army done it on the streets of my home town and killed 14...does that sound ridiculous to you Bill? Mad
Not unless you use the same, obviously exaggerated description, no. Where's your home town?


Have you ever heard of "Bloody Sunday"? And no not the song (but what inspired the song) And yes the Paras at this time also fired indiscriminately for roughly 30 minutes. You know not everyone dies, some just get f**king maimed too you know!!!
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 05:18 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Thanks for helping get the thread back on track Icann.
You're welcome.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
A great question here:

ican711nm wrote:
Another question: What is your recommendation for how we can show them that "we are more concerned with their welfare than we are with their oil?"


Quote:
Liquid Freedom ...This single move would do more than any other initiative to help secure a lasting peace, grounded in justice. And such a peace may be the only outcome that could, in some small measure, redeem the sacrifices that Americans and Iraqis are now enduring.


We set up the revenues from the Iraqi oil industry as a shared-profit Trust, much like was done in Alaska.

This not only starts putting money in Iraqi citizen's hands quickly, it would be a massive sign of faith on the part of Americans that the Iraqi people, given the freedom to determine their own destiny, will make the right choices with that freedom.

It would also help keep another oppressive regime from forming - every Iraqi would have something tangible to lose.


Yeah, Verily! That's emphasis not yelling. Smile

ican711nm wrote:
If we were truly interested only in their oil, and (perhaps their al Qaeda harboring), then our best response would have been to leave Saddam ensconsed where he was. The price of oil probably would then have continued to be only about 60% of what it is now.


Cycloptichorn wrote:
The prices today have zero significance compared to the long-range strategy of the ownership of the land which has huge oil reserves, and ya know it.


Yeah, I know it. But the land is currently owned by the State of Iraq. So the appreciation in value of that land would continue to benefit the state (or hopefully the Iraqi people per "Liquid Freedom), but not American wallets whether we invaded Iraq or not. However, increased Iraqi oil production can benefit both Iraqi and American wallets. The potential benefit to us of invading Iraq is not derived from any appreciation in the value of Iraqi oil lands. The potential benefit to us is a significant reduction in the harboring of al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations in Iraq.

ican711nm wrote:
Yes, thousands more Iraqis civilians would have been murdered each year than are being killed now, but we would only need to invade al Qaeda (or other terrorist) camps in Iraq from time to time in order to control their attacks on Americans to a level acceptable to American voters.


Cycloptichorn wrote:
Untrue. You've seen that 100k estimate that we've caused the deaths of? Cut that in half, even, and you still have 50k deaths in the last year. Saddam hasn't killed 50k people in a year for a long time. It is rather disingenuous to claim that that number of people would still be dying.


No it's not disingenuous at all. It's merely my honest intuitive "what if" projection. Current projections of Iraqi civilian casualty rates appear to me to be also based on the honest intuitions of others rather than on sufficient relevant facts.

ican711nm wrote:
You stated: "We need to start paying THEM to rebuild their country, instead of paying AMERICANS to do it, even if it takes longer." I agree. The problem is that both we AMERICANS and they IRAQIS justifiably afraid to risk rebuilding anything until the insurgents are controlled.


Cycloptichorn wrote:
Then what the hell is all that money going to Haliburton being used for, if not rebuilding? Why couldn't it be used to give Iraqis jobs, and a stake in their own community's development? Unemployment over there is sky-high right now....


I don't know that any rebuilding money is going to Haliburton right now. I bet that currently all Haliburton is getting paid for is maintenance and repair of oil production equipment. Rebuilding takes far more courage presently than maintenance and repair of oil production equipment, because the former is in the middle of high battle grounds and the latter is in isolated low battle grounds. But I agree, when the insurgency is finally under control the rebuilding not only should, but must, be done and paid for (e.g., from oil revenues) by the Iraqis themselves.
0 Replies
 
gav
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 05:39 pm
I doubt if you read this, or saw this, or heard this story in the American media:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4006479.stm
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 05:42 pm
gav wrote:
Have you ever heard of "Bloody Sunday"? And no not the song (but what inspired the song) And yes the Paras at this time also fired indiscriminately for roughly 30 minutes. You know not everyone dies, some just get f**king maimed too you know!!!
Yes, I've heard of it, Gav. Quite tragic.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 05:56 pm
JustWonders wrote:
revel wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
revel wrote:
I said that I felt sorry for Arafat because he was under house arrest for so long at the end of his life...

You feel sorry for him because he spent years on house arrest? Rolling Eyes
Yasir Arafat, the Murderer of Munich should have been executed decades ago. At the very least he should have died rotting away in a jail cell... not house arrest. You do know he was behind the 1972 Murders of 11 Israelis(some Olympic athletes for crying out loud) and a German Policeman, don't you? You have a strange way of distributing your sympathies. That piece of sh!t isn't worthy.

revel wrote:
What I am talking about is more than just people talking on an internet message board. People in the world are dying and we are the ones killing them. That matters to me.
Yeah, right. You feel sorry for a murderous terrorist because he was forced to live on his compound, while stealing hundreds of millions of dollars from the people he supposedly murders forÂ… but at the same time you condemn the actions of the brave soldiers who pursue such murderers in other theatres. What kind of morality is that?


I do not know the history of Arafat or any of the things you all claim he had done. I did not kept up with it in the past. All I know is that he was a poor leader because he did not acomplish his goals of having freedom from Israel for his people. I sort of wish I could take back that statement of feeling sorry for Arafat that i said on the fly on another thread that is being used to batter me from someone who seems to have it in for me for some odd reason. boo hoo I guess.

The Palestinians are fighting for a just cause, the Iraqis are fighting for a just cause. I don't condone some of their methods but I understand why they employ them when they don't have all of the sophisticated weapons of mass destruction that the US and Israel has they have depend on crude methods like bombings. I don't condone at all the kidnapping of innocent people and killing them, there is no justiication for that and the ones doing that are nothing but criminals. However, we are the aggressors in Iraq and we are killing hundreds of innocent people in an unjust war. That is wrong on our part therefore we have no moral high ground to be talking about the crude methods that the insurgents use.


Revel - I actually let most of what I disagree with on this board pass me by, not feeling at all compelled to argue with idiots (and I've been called one often enough here). But I can't sit silent when I see someone who feels "sad" for a murderer, a terrorist, and a thief. Like O'Bill said, he should have been hanged years ago or at the very least sent to rot in a prison. He was neither, and spent a mere three years confined to his compound. I don't understand how someone could live anywhere on this planet without knowing the evil of this man, neither can I understand those who would sympathize with those of which they know nothing.

What I do know is you won't find any truth from the likes of Aljazeera and maybe that's why your world view is so skewed in the first place. I'm not going to argue with you on your views of Iraq, although I think your inability to see the whole picture does a disservice to our military personnel, cheapening their service and blackening their honor. Continue to get your news from terrorist organizations if you must, but I don't think many will find you or your viewpoints credible if you continue to "link" them as your main source of information. Not even the Democrats trot out Aljazeera to make their points (thank God).

It's my opinion that anyone who has anything good to say about Arafat is morally deranged, but I didn't come to that conclusion without knowing something about him, his life and his reign of terror. The only good thing to say about him is he died a failure. Those that are mourning him are no better off and no less oppressed than they were 30 years ago. Think about that. Yet, millions upon millions of dollars were collected and sent to help the "mourners". Where do you think that money is now? Don't look to Aljazeera to tell you.


I am not aware of anyone calling you an idiot but if they have called you one that is not a reason to call others idiots.

I am going to drop this about Arafat and just let the impression stand that you have formed about me concerning my feelings towards him.

I am really not in the habit of going to those kinds of sites, I was just hard pressed to find any news about the civillians that are suffering under this assualt that is under way in Flauja. (however you spell it) Furthermore, I don't do things just because others do them so telling me that no one else does things don't matter to me.

To speak up when one feels that their country is acting unjustly is not doing a diservice to one's country or the troops defending the country.

We are in Iraq because of lies and we are killing people and destroying homes because of lies that our leaders in charge told. That is not the troops on the ground's fault. I don't condone soldiers that shirk their duty if they are in the army or whatever, so I don't blame the soldiers for doing their duty even if that duty is unjust.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 09:45 pm
revel wrote:
The Palestinians are fighting for a just cause, the Iraqis are fighting for a just cause.


What is the just cause that you think the Palestinians are fighting for?

What is the just cause that you think the Iraqi insurgents are fighting for?

revel wrote:
However, we are the aggressors in Iraq and we are killing hundreds of innocent people in an unjust war.


Why do you think our invasion of Iraq is unjust?

revel wrote:
To speak up when one feels that their country is acting unjustly is not doing a diservice to one's country or the troops defending the country.


I think that one ought to have some factual basis other than one's feelings before criticizing one's country.

revel wrote:
We are in Iraq because of lies and we are killing people and destroying homes because of lies that our leaders in charge told.


What are the lies that you think our leaders told that led us to invade Iraq to kill people and destroy homes?

I sincerely hope we will do whatever we think necessary to defend ourselves from those who murdered or are murdering our people.

I sincerely hope we will likewise defend ourselves from those who we think harbored or are harboring those who murdered or are murdering our people.

I bet a large majority of Americans hope the same.

AN ANALOGY

Generally, wise cancer patients will deliberately sacrifice some of their uninfected flesh in a concerted effort to assure the removal or destruction of their cancerous flesh. Failure to do so almost guarantees premature death from the cancer. Also, waiting too long to remove or destroy the cancer risks premature death from the cancer.

Generally, wise populations will timely risk the loss of some of their population in a concerted effort to rid themselves of the murdering part of their population. That I believe is how poulations must behave to survive. Here too, waiting too long to rid itself of the murdering part of its population risks failure of the whole population to survive.

Either the Iraqis make a timely concerted effort to rid themselves of the murdering part of their population or they too will risk their own survival. Their failure to make a timely effort to rid themselves of Saddam Hussein and his gang of murderers, as well as the insurgent former members of that gang, has already clearly cost them dearly.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 12:40 am
Quote:
What is the just cause that you think the Palestinians are fighting for?

What is the just cause that you think the Iraqi insurgents are fighting for?


The Palestinians are fighting to get out from under the yoke of Israel.

The Iraqi's are fighting for the US to get out of their country.

Quote:
What are the lies that you think our leaders told that led us to invade Iraq to kill people and destroy homes?



The lies that were told are that Saddam Hussien had stockpilies of WMD and that he could use those WMD to attack us within a certain amount of days. (forgot the exact number) Neither of which is true and the administration was told that there were doubts about the stockpiles.

Quote:
I sincerely hope we will do whatever we think necessary to defend ourselves from those who murdered or are murdering our people.


We were never in any danger from Iraq until we invaded their country and started killing people.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 02:34 am
Quote:
Fallujah situation 'disastrous', charity says
By Kim Sengupta in Camp Dogwood, Iraq
13 November 2004


Civilians trapped in Fallujah face a humanitarian disaster unless Iraqi and American authorities allow food, water and medicine into the besieged city, aid agencies warned last night.

Fardous al-Ubaidi, head of the Iraqi Red Crescent Society, said her organisation had asked permission from the Iraqi government to deliver aid supplies to people in the city but the request was turned down.

"There is no water, no food, no medicine, no electricity and no fuel and when we asked for permission, we were only allowed to approach the Fallujah outskirts but had no access to Fallujah itself," Ms al-Ubaidi said. A convoy of three ambulances and one truck carrying food accompanied by 15 volunteers will make the first attempt to enter the city today, she added.

Ahmed al-Rawi, of the Red Cross, said: "Movement is impossible inside the city. The residents fear the snipers and therefore the wounded find no help and bleed to death." On the eve of the assault, the interim Prime Minister, Ayad Allawi, imposed a 24-hour curfew on Fallujah and ordered roads in the area closed.

Meanwhile, British soldiers from the Black Watch were involved in a series of running battles with insurgents yesterday after going to the support of American forces in the city.

The fighting began after US Marines in the outer ring of the assault force asked the Black Watch to intercept militants retreating after a heavy exchange of fire. British Warrior armoured cars answering the call came under sustained attack from automatic rifle fire and rocket-propelled grenades.

The militants withdrew after the Warriors fired back with their cannons and machine-guns and British helicopters gave chase. A car was eventually halted and the occupants fled after booby-trapping a cache of mortars, rocket-propelled grenades and explosives. Following further gun battles a second car was seized in a village on the banks of the Euphrates. It contained devices used for suicide bombings including detonators, circuit boards and explosives.

Two men were arrested at the village after being pointed out by a cleric, but two other cars driven by insurgents escaped.

Major Alastair Aitken, of the Black Watch, said: "This was a difficult operation at an increasingly busy time, and it was a successful outcome. But we have to be ready for more situations like this."

An audiotape purportedly by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the al-Qaida-linked terror suspect, urged on his fighters in Fallujah and said victory was near. The link to the tape surfaced yesterday on an internet site known as a clearinghouse for militant Muslim comment, although its authenticity has yet to be confirmed.

"As for you heroes of Islam in Fallujah, praise to your Jihad, praise to your nation, praise to your religion. [Have] one hour's patience, and then you will be see the consequences," said the speaker after identifying himself as Zarqawi.

Inside Fallujah, intense fighting erupted in the north-west of the city, just as US commanders were declaring that they had trapped resistance fighters in the southern end and were about to launch a final assault to take control.

The American forces insisted that attacks by rebels on a narrow strip of south Fallujah were isolated. Roy Meek, a Marines spokesman, said: "They can't go north because that's where we are. They can't go west because of the Euphrates river and they can't go east because we have a huge presence there. So they are cornered in the south."

A little later the American headquarters inside Fallujah came under repeated fire, leading to US tanks and armoured cars heading back into areas which US forces had claimed to be firmly under control.

Rasoul Ibrahim, a father of three, fled Fallujah on foot, arriving with his wife and children yesterday in Habbaniya, 12 miles to the west. He said families left inside Fallujah were in desperate need. "There's no water," he said. "People are drinking dirty water. Children are dying. People are eating flour because there's no food." Around 10,000 people have taken shelter in Habbaniya.

US forces say they have found Mohammed al-Joundi, the Syrian driver of two abducted French journalists, Christian Chesnot and Georges Malbrunot, in Fallujah. The driver said he was being held captive by militants after being separated from the journalists, who were abducted with him in August.

Meanwhile, violence continued to spread, with US aircraft carrying out air strikes in Mosul and militants attacking US patrols near the centre of Baghdad with machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades. The interim government extended the curfew imposed on the capital to the Shia holy city of Najaf.

An American airport worker, Dean Sadek, who is of Lebanese origin, was kidnapped in Baghdad yesterday by a group called the 1920 Revolution Brigades.

This pool copy dispatch was compiled under Ministry of Defence restrictions.
Source
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 07:15 am
I am glad an independent source said about the same thing as the article I posted yesterday said. But I guess unless it comes from Pentagon or one of our embedded news sources it is not going to be accepted and even then the charge will be made that the media is a liberal outfit full of whinny defeatist journalist who only report the negative.

But life is more than success on message boards and one day in the future all this that is going on by the United States will be judged the same as other things in the past have been judged when other countries have done unjust things.

I imagine that is small consolation for those in Iraq suffering as we sit in our living rooms typing in safety. I wonder what other if other countries feel powerless to stop the United States from this aggression? What do you do when the world's super power becomes the world's aggressor? I become afraid thinking about what might happen to us in the united states because of the decisions of our President.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 09:31 am
revel wrote:
But I guess unless it comes from Pentagon or one of our embedded news sources it is not going to be accepted and even then the charge will be made that the media is a liberal outfit full of whinny defeatist journalist who only report the negative.


You mean, Her Majesty's Government Ministry of Defense doesn't count?
(Okay, it's in the hand of Socialists, but they are the USA's best allies!)

Quote:
This pool copy dispatch was compiled under Ministry of Defence restrictions.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 10:20 am
This is how our good friend and ally treats women. Shall we invade them next? Rolling Eyes

Saudi Women as Prisoners
11:42 Nov 12, '04 / 28 Cheshvan 5765


Two recent articles in the Saudi Arabian English-language newspaper Arab News described the oppressive conditions of Saudi women. However, the very fact that the articles have appeared may indicate a shift, however slight, towards recognition of the plight of women in the oil kingdom.

A report from inside the women's wing of the Riyadh jail printed last month illustrated the powerlessness and abuse women are subject to in Saudi Arabia. One woman interviewed by journalist Halah Al-Nasser of Sayidaty, a sister publication of Arab News, explained that she was in prison because her husband "ruined my reputation." She was sentenced to 10 months in prison and 400 lashes after being arrested by members of the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice for "immoral conduct". The system would have released her after 20 days, "but my husband refused to receive me and accused me of being a no-good, disobedient wife, so I was sentenced," she told the reporter. Her husband, in the meantime, divorced her, but still holds what is called in the kingdom the "family card", which belongs to a man and lists his wives and children. By refusing to turn that over, he can make her release difficult, if not impossible.

Al-Nasser also met with four foreign women who had been sentenced for immoral conduct. One of them, who was employed as a maid, said that "the abuse of her sponsor's wife got her into prison." When she ran away from her employer/abuser, she "took a ride with a stranger. He took me home, where I was arrested."

In an article printed earlier this month in Arab News, columnist Abeer Mishkas indirectly described the submissive position of the average Saudi woman, while noting that in neighboring Gulf states women "are allowed to vote and are also serving as government ministers."

"Before the introduction of ID cards for women, Saudi women were identified only on the IDs of their male guardians," Mishkas wrote. However, even since the introduction of personal ID cards, "a clause... makes optional the issuing of a card to a woman. ...[Male] guardians have used this, plus the fact that their approval is required for the issuance of a card to pressure women and prevent them from getting their own personal ID."

Warning of the potential for criminals to exploit the lack of identification for women, the columnist wrote: "There is, in other words, a legal way of confirming a woman's identity in every country in the world except Saudi Arabia."

Aside from the crime concerns, Mikhmas explained, the lack of an ID is disempowering. "One reason given for not allowing women to participate in the upcoming municipal elections is that many do not have IDs. How can election officials be sure who the women really are and if they have already voted or not? Not having an ID is preventing women from being fully involved in their country's development."

In favor of the personal ID, the writer went on to describe what it means to have one - and what it means to be deprived of one - in Saudi Arabia:

"To some liberals, the idea of a person having an ID is unnecessary and takes away an element of personal freedom. In our society, however, where women's personal freedom is restricted, having an ID would make a real difference. Women would have a symbol of their own independence; they would not be under the thumb, so to speak, of a male guardian. Having a male guardian is not the solution to all the problems of a woman and for many men, having these obligations and duties is an unnecessary burden. In such cases, an ID for women would be welcome for both sexes; women would be as independent as men and they could carry out their own business without male help, agreement or supervision.

"To look at the matter from still another perspective, some men, as we know, abuse their power over women for no other reason than that they have the power. They must approve anything the woman wants to do involving official paperwork and documents. That in itself is a source of power and is often misused and abused by men.

"In one of our papers there was an article about male guardians refusing to approve ID cards for their women relatives because they did not want their 'women' to have a public identity since that would reflect adversely on tribal feelings of pride and honor. Women belong to the tribe but they are kept in the background, never named in public or openly consulted. The report also told of men who use the family card as a weapon to exercise authority over women.

"The man holds the family card, which has the names of his immediate female relatives, his wife and daughters. In one case, a woman wanted to apply for a job and she needed the family card as proof of her identity but her brothers refused to give it her because of a dispute over an inheritance. Another woman complained that she could not move her children from one school to another because her former husband refused to give the family card to her and thus she was unable to prove that she was the mother of her children. One would normally expect the law to help these women. A lawyer interviewed by the newspaper said that it was indeed wrong for men to use their authority to harass women but that, to be honest, he saw no legal way out of the situation. All he could do was suggest that the family seek help and guidance from family elders and friends."
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 10:24 am
revel wrote:
I become afraid thinking about what might happen to us in the united states because of the decisions of our President.
Beyond terrorism? Absolutely nothing. The leaders of other countries respect the leader of ours more than you do. :wink:
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 10:33 am
Bill
I agree revel is a bit over the edge in her thinking and pronouncements. However, quote"The leaders of other countries respect the leader of ours more than you do. " end quote . That I doubt, they have as little or less respect for our president than a good many US citizens have.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 11:26 am
Quote:
"This is a frigging ghost town," says Corporal Steven Wolf, a squad leader for the vehicle the CAAT (Combined Anti Armor Team) Platoon. The streets are deserted. But there are some exceptions. The dead.

The Marines are operating with liberal rules of engagement.

"Everything to the west is weapons free," radios Staff Sgt. Sam Mortimer of Seattle, Washington. Weapons Free means the marines can shoot whatever they see -- it's all considered hostile.

Our humvees pass by a body of a man in the center of the street. There is hole through his left eyes socket where a Marine sniper round passed cleanly through.


Photo Blog: Taking Falluja
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 01:02 pm
au1929 wrote:
This is how our good friend and ally treats women. Shall we invade them next? Rolling Eyes
Yes, if they won't change their ways, we should.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 01:11 pm
Well, Bill, aren't there a couple of more countries due for invasion before? (I mean, with smaller one's, two to three per year would be a good number.)
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 01:19 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, Bill, aren't there a couple of more countries due for invasion before? (I mean, with smaller one's, two to three per year would be a good number.)
Smile I would think even despotic scum would rather get with the program than be invaded so after a couple of bites maybe barking would be sufficient. :wink:
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 01:26 pm
Just curious here Bill, since we have pretty much deployed trrops available (stop loss) and all that, and we, in the US, have always been preety big on defense let alone those other 2 or 3 despots we might need to dispose, just who is going to be doing all that barking?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 01:33 pm
When was the last time the dog doing the barking also did the biting? Rome wasn't built in a day, Dys. You don't think the mere thought of "who's next" might be a powerful incentive?
0 Replies
 
 

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