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THE US, THE UN AND THE IRAQIS THEMSELVES, V. 7.0

 
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 03:30 pm


Alex P. Schmidt, Political Terrorism ( 1984), p. 24.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 03:33 pm
http://www.ict.org.il/graphics/define2.gif
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gav
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 03:34 pm
Occom Bill you yourself have now said that you believe there is a difference between an insurgent and a terrorist. I said that I will not condemn those that are carrying out attacks to rid their country of an occupation. Now, I should have made this clearer, the people I refuse to condemn are those that are taking the fight directly to the American forces - however those that are beheading innocents I DO condemn.

However I am still being labeled as being sympathetic to terrorism.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 03:34 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I contend that many of our 'armchair generals' need to pick up a gun and go fight if they believe in what we are doing so damn bad. Doubt it will happen though.
I contend that many of our 'armchair sympathizers need to pick up a gun and go fight if they disbelieve in what we are doing so damn bad. Doubt that will happen either, though.

(Do you see the irony of calling other's tactics childish before introducing that garbage to the thread?)
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 03:34 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
That's Bullsh*t. The insurgents are bound together by a mutual hate of Americans and mutual following of religion. Perhaps you have a hard time understanding this because you haven't tried to imagine your favorite relative with a big piece of shrapenel sticking out of his/her head.


I think they are bound together by a mutual fear of each other. I think that fear is camouflaged in their own minds by their mutual self-induced delusions that America deserves to be hated and their religion deserves to be honored.

I doubt you have anymore evidence that you are right than I have that I am right. Why do I doubt that? I doubt it because you have supplied the same zero evidence that you are right that I have supplied that I am right.

Regardless of which of us is right, there is no escaping the fact that the behavior of the insurgents is irrational and self-destructive. I think I give them more credit than you do, because I attribute their behavior to a rational fear, while you attribute it to an irrational hatred and an irrational belief.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
...You seem to forget a simple fact: we are never going to leave Iraq in their minds. The military bases we have built there will be stocked with American troops for quite some time. They find this to be quite unacceptable. And they are willing to die to kick us off their land. I'm surprised that you don't understand this fact; would you act any differently in their place, if you thought your country was invaded and conquered by a truly evil force?


I would welcome and indeed aid those who were attempting to secure my liberty if it were being denied me by tyrants.

This 'ol guy had it right then and he has it right now.
Patrick Henry, 1775 wrote:
Why stay we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me: give me liberty or give me death.


We will leave Iraq as soon as a democratic government is established and self-secured there by Iraqis. Our bases there, such as they are, are there for no other reason than we anticipate that it will take several years before that democracy is established and self-secured there by Iraqis.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
And do you really think that we would allow them to slip into whatever form of government they want 'after' the elections? Seriously, now, we invaded them once already because we found their government acceptable, you think we're just going to say 'oh, well, we tried.' Get realistic, Iraqis have no choice between being in a permanent democracy or in kicking us out.


I am convinced we want to get the hell out of Iraq and Afghanistan as soon as we can do either or both without fear al Qaeda (or other terrorists) will be harbored or otherwise supported there.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
What do you think is motivating them?


The dream of Dar al-Islaam, and/or the dream of an Iraq without Saddam OR the Americans.

That, and Revenge. Many of the insurgents have dead relatives from US bombs and bullets. Amazing what that will do to a man's psyche.

ican711nm wrote:
What tactic or tactics do you recommend we adopt?


We have to turn the people of Iraq against the insurgents and terrorists by showing them that we are more concerned with their welfare than we are with their oil. We need to start paying THEM to rebuild their country, instead of paying AMERICANS to do it, even if it takes longer.

WE, the Americans, will never be able to defeat the insurgency. Only the Iraqi people can do that....


OK! Now those last comments are constructive responses.

Another question: What is your recommendation for how we can show them that "we are more concerned with their welfare than we are with their oil?"

If we were truly interested only in their oil, and (perhaps their al Qaeda harboring), then our best response would have been to leave Saddam ensconsed where he was. The price of oil probably would then have continued to be only about 60% of what it is now. Yes, thousands more Iraqis civilians would have been murdered each year than are being killed now, but we would only need to invade al Qaeda (or other terrorist) camps in Iraq from time to time in order to control their attacks on Americans to a level acceptable to American voters.

You stated: "We need to start paying THEM to rebuild their country, instead of paying AMERICANS to do it, even if it takes longer." I agree. The problem is that both we AMERICANS and they IRAQIS are justifiably afraid to risk rebuilding anything in Iraq until the insurgents are controlled.
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gav
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 03:36 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
http://www.ict.org.il/graphics/define2.gif


So by your own admission its not a black and white issue - which is what me and cyclo are getting at!
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 03:44 pm
revel wrote:
I do not know the history of Arafat or any of the things you all claim he had done.
Darlin, if you don't have a clue about the history of the PLO, or it's leader, how can you have such a strong opinion about the just-ness of their cause? You sound like a decent enough person... you just seem to have avoided the numerous resources that would inform you of some of the heinous crimes committed by those you are now empathizing with. Give your country equal time, or at least the benefit of the doubt and you may find some of your positions may need some tweaking. :wink:
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gav
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 03:47 pm
The US Has Killed 100,000 in Iraq: The Lancet
by Juan Cole
www.dissidentvoice.org
October 30, 2004
First Published in Informed Comment






The Lancet, a respected British medical journal, reports that the US and coalition forces (but mainly the US Air Force) has killed 100,000 Iraqi civilians since the fall of Saddam on April 9, 2003. Previous estimates for civilian deaths since the beginning of the war ranged up to 16,000, with the number of Iraqi troops killed during the war itself put at about 6,000.

The troubling thing about these results is that they suggest that the US may soon catch up with Saddam Hussein in the number of civilians killed. How many deaths to blame on Saddam is controversial. He did after all start both the Iran-Iraq War and the Gulf War. But he also started suing for peace in the Iran-Iraq war after only a couple of years, and it was Khomeini who dragged the war out until 1988. But if we exclude deaths of soldiers, it is often alleged that Saddam killed 300,000 civilians. This allegation seems increasingly suspect. So far only 5,000 or so persons have been found in mass graves. But if Roberts and Burnham are right, the US has already killed a third as many Iraqi civilians in 18 months as Saddam killed in 24 years.

The report is based on extensive household survey research in Iraq in September of 2004. Les Roberts and Gilbert Burnham found that the vast majority of the deaths were the result of US aerial bombardment of Iraqi cities, which they found especially hard on "women and children." After excluding the Fallujah data (because Fallujah has seen such violence that it might skew the nationwide averages), they found that Iraqis were about 1.5 times more likely to die of violence during the past 18 months than they were in the year and a half before the war. Before the war, the death rate was 5 per thousand per year, and afterwards it was 7.9 per thousand per year (excluding Fallujah). My own figuring is that, given a population of 25 million, that yields 72,500 excess deaths per year, or at least 100,000 for the whole period since April 9, 2003.

The methodology of this study is very tight, but it does involve extrapolating from a small number and so could easily be substantially incorrect. But the methodology also is standard in such situations and was used in Bosnia and Kosovo.

I think the results are probably an exaggeration. But they can't be so radically far off that the 16,000 deaths previously estimated can still be viewed as valid. I'd say we have to now revise the number up to at least many tens of thousand--which anyway makes sense. The 16,000 estimate comes from counting all deaths reported in the Western press, which everyone always knew was only a fraction of the true total. (I see deaths reported in al-Zaman every day that don't show up in the Western wire services).

The most important finding from my point of view is not the magnitude of civilian deaths, but the method of them. Roberts and Burnham find that US aerial bombardments are killing far more Iraqi civilians than had previously been suspected. This finding is also not a surprise to me. I can remember how, on a single day (August 12), US warplanes bombed the southern Shiite city of Kut, killing 84 persons, mainly civilians, in an attempt to get at Mahdi Army militiamen. These deaths were not widely reported in the US press, especially television. Kut is a small place and has been relatively quiet except when the US has been attacking Muqtada al-Sadr, who is popular among some segments of the population there. The toll in Sadr City or the Shiite slums of East Baghdad, or Najaf, or in al-Anbar province, must be enormous.

I personally believe that these aerial bombardments of civilian city quarters by a military occupier that has already conquered the country are a gross violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949, governing the treatment of populations of occupied territories.

* Spencer Ackerman at TNR's online blog on Iraq has a long interview with Burnham about the study, in which Burnham is quite humble about it not being definitive.

Juan Cole is Professor of History at the University of Michigan. His books include Sacred Space And Holy War: The Politics, Culture and History of Shi'ite Islam and Broken Wings: A Novel. This article first appeared in his weblog Informed Comment, Thoughts on the Middle East, History, and Religion. He can be reached at: [email protected].

Other Articles by Juan Cole

* Iran in Bush's Sights


Murder to one person - collateral damage to another Rolling Eyes
This thread really has no end to it.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 03:50 pm
Thanks for helping get the thread back on track Icann.

A great question here:

Quote:
Another question: What is your recommendation for how we can show them that "we are more concerned with their welfare than we are with their oil?"


From Liquid Freedom:

http://www.newpartisan.com/home/liquid-freedom.html

Quote:


For those too lazy to read,

We set up the revenues from the Iraqi oil industry as a shared-profit Trust, much like was done in Alaska.

This not only starts putting money in Iraqi citizen's hands quickly, it would be a massive sign of faith on the part of Americans that the Iraqi people, given the freedom to determine their own destiny, will make the right choices with that freedom.

It would also help keep another oppressive regime from forming - every Iraqi would have something tangible to lose.

Quote:
If we were truly interested only in their oil, and (perhaps their al Qaeda harboring), then our best response would have been to leave Saddam ensconsed where he was. The price of oil probably would then have continued to be only about 60% of what it is now.


The prices today have zero significance compared to the long-range strategy of the ownership of the land which has huge oil reserves, and ya know it.




Quote:
Yes, thousands more Iraqis civilians would have been murdered each year than are being killed now, but we would only need to invade al Qaeda (or other terrorist) camps in Iraq from time to time in order to control their attacks on Americans to a level acceptable to American voters.


Untrue. You've seen that 100k estimate that we've caused the deaths of? Cut that in half, even, and you still have 50k deaths in the last year. Saddam hasn't killed 50k people in a year for a long time. It is rather disingenuous to claim that that number of people would still be dying.



Quote:
You stated: "We need to start paying THEM to rebuild their country, instead of paying AMERICANS to do it, even if it takes longer." I agree. The problem is that both we AMERICANS and they IRAQIS justifiably afraid to risk rebuilding anything until the insurgents are controlled.


Then what the hell is all that money going to Haliburton being used for, if not rebuilding? Why couldn't it be used to give Iraqis jobs, and a stake in their own community's development? Unemployment over there is sky-high right now....

Cheers!

Cycloptichorn
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 04:01 pm
Quote:
The report is based on extensive household survey research in Iraq in September of 2004.


So it's more or less accurate than exit poll data?

Quote:
The methodology of this study is very tight, but it does involve extrapolating from a small number and so could easily be substantially incorrect.


In the words of another poster on this thread: "Pfft."

Quote:
I think the results are probably an exaggeration.


'ya think?
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gav
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 04:04 pm
As per usual - see what you want to see.... Rolling Eyes
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 04:05 pm
gav wrote:
Occom Bill you yourself have now said that you believe there is a difference between an insurgent and a terrorist. I said that I will not condemn those that are carrying out attacks to rid their country of an occupation. Now, I should have made this clearer, the people I refuse to condemn are those that are taking the fight directly to the American forces - however those that are beheading innocents I DO condemn.

However I am still being labeled as being sympathetic to terrorism.



Cyclops, Gav has tried to clarify his earlier post, the one that you wholeheartedly endorsed. He now says he condemns the action of those that behead innocents. (Although on the record he has not gone so far as to say he condemns the actions of those that intentionally kill innocents - just beheadings.)

What say you?
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 04:08 pm
gav wrote:
As per usual - see what you want to see.... Rolling Eyes


Ditto.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 04:12 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
gav wrote:
As per usual - see what you want to see.... Rolling Eyes


Ditto.
In triplicate.

As for your clarification, Gav... you've shown a little separation between yourself and terrorist sympathizers... but... is it okay if I continue to consider you rabidly anti-American? (Seriously?)
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gav
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 04:21 pm
Why didn't you copy and paste the WHOLE paragraph that had the bit about exaggeration? Just incase you didn't read it all- here it is again:

I
Quote:
think the results are probably an exaggeration. But they can't be so radically far off that the 16,000 deaths previously estimated can still be viewed as valid. I'd say we have to now revise the number up to at least many tens of thousand--which anyway makes sense. The 16,000 estimate comes from counting all deaths reported in the Western press, which everyone always knew was only a fraction of the true total. (I see deaths reported in al-Zaman every day that don't show up in the Western wire services).


Anybody who intentionally kills innocent civilians are to be condemned. If memory serves me correctly I think the US forces shot dead 18 innocent civilians at an anti-US rally in Iraq last year - that was unadulterated murder.
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gav
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 04:28 pm
Sorry just discovered it wasn't 18. On April 29th 2003 in Fallujah US forces murdered 13 Iraqi demonstrators and injured 75. Reports at the time suggested they fired indiscriminately for nearly 30 minutes.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 04:30 pm
gav wrote:
Sorry just discovered it wasn't 18. On April 29th 2003 US forces murdered 13 Iraqi demonstartors and injured 75. Reports at the time suggested they fired indiscriminately for nearly 30 minutes.


Apparently you are not going just off your memory, which we've established is faulty.

You were planning on supplying us with your link?
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 04:50 pm
gav wrote:
Sorry just discovered it wasn't 18. On April 29th 2003 in Fallujah US forces murdered 13 Iraqi demonstrators and injured 75. Reports at the time suggested they fired indiscriminately for nearly 30 minutes.
The US military fired indiscriminately into a crowd of demonstrators for nearly 30 minutes and only killed 13 people? ROTFLMAO Laughing Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds?
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gav
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 04:53 pm
The British Army done it on the streets of my home town and killed 14...does that sound ridiculous to you Bill? Mad
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 04:53 pm
revel wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
revel wrote:
I said that I felt sorry for Arafat because he was under house arrest for so long at the end of his life...

You feel sorry for him because he spent years on house arrest? Rolling Eyes
Yasir Arafat, the Murderer of Munich should have been executed decades ago. At the very least he should have died rotting away in a jail cell... not house arrest. You do know he was behind the 1972 Murders of 11 Israelis(some Olympic athletes for crying out loud) and a German Policeman, don't you? You have a strange way of distributing your sympathies. That piece of sh!t isn't worthy.

revel wrote:
What I am talking about is more than just people talking on an internet message board. People in the world are dying and we are the ones killing them. That matters to me.
Yeah, right. You feel sorry for a murderous terrorist because he was forced to live on his compound, while stealing hundreds of millions of dollars from the people he supposedly murders forÂ… but at the same time you condemn the actions of the brave soldiers who pursue such murderers in other theatres. What kind of morality is that?


I do not know the history of Arafat or any of the things you all claim he had done. I did not kept up with it in the past. All I know is that he was a poor leader because he did not acomplish his goals of having freedom from Israel for his people. I sort of wish I could take back that statement of feeling sorry for Arafat that i said on the fly on another thread that is being used to batter me from someone who seems to have it in for me for some odd reason. boo hoo I guess.

The Palestinians are fighting for a just cause, the Iraqis are fighting for a just cause. I don't condone some of their methods but I understand why they employ them when they don't have all of the sophisticated weapons of mass destruction that the US and Israel has they have depend on crude methods like bombings. I don't condone at all the kidnapping of innocent people and killing them, there is no justiication for that and the ones doing that are nothing but criminals. However, we are the aggressors in Iraq and we are killing hundreds of innocent people in an unjust war. That is wrong on our part therefore we have no moral high ground to be talking about the crude methods that the insurgents use.


Revel - I actually let most of what I disagree with on this board pass me by, not feeling at all compelled to argue with idiots (and I've been called one often enough here). But I can't sit silent when I see someone who feels "sad" for a murderer, a terrorist, and a thief. Like O'Bill said, he should have been hanged years ago or at the very least sent to rot in a prison. He was neither, and spent a mere three years confined to his compound. I don't understand how someone could live anywhere on this planet without knowing the evil of this man, neither can I understand those who would sympathize with those of which they know nothing.

What I do know is you won't find any truth from the likes of Aljazeera and maybe that's why your world view is so skewed in the first place. I'm not going to argue with you on your views of Iraq, although I think your inability to see the whole picture does a disservice to our military personnel, cheapening their service and blackening their honor. Continue to get your news from terrorist organizations if you must, but I don't think many will find you or your viewpoints credible if you continue to "link" them as your main source of information. Not even the Democrats trot out Aljazeera to make their points (thank God).

It's my opinion that anyone who has anything good to say about Arafat is morally deranged, but I didn't come to that conclusion without knowing something about him, his life and his reign of terror. The only good thing to say about him is he died a failure. Those that are mourning him are no better off and no less oppressed than they were 30 years ago. Think about that. Yet, millions upon millions of dollars were collected and sent to help the "mourners". Where do you think that money is now? Don't look to Aljazeera to tell you.
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