80
   

When will Hillary Clinton give up her candidacy ?

 
 
Lash
 
  -1  
Sun 17 Apr, 2016 05:22 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:

I don't play word games-that's your thing. Because, God knows, you sure don't have any ability to seek out FACTS from anywhere but partisan websites, where the author prescreens them to support his/her theme. You have never looked up a fact on its own in the time I've known you.
Lash wrote:

Sigh. You're a huge waste of time. This is the last time I'll respond to you. You have no idea what you're talking about. You are the one who vomits up the same stupid bile about Clinton being a hero because he orchestrated the incarceration and ruin of a race of people. I don't know how the coldest-hearted rigid conservative could say that with a straight face.


Martin Luther King was not talking about incrementalism, as you constantly say,
Lash wrote:

The whole letter was about the deceptive politics of incrementalism. Try reading for the central idea. Why did the clergy write the letter? What did they want him to do? Why wouldn't he agree? As I tell my students, you have to think... Boil the letter down to one sentence. I'm sure you can if you free your mind of pre-conceived notions.

Mainstream American political strategy proceeds from an ever present with few, if any, links to a deeply burdened past. One of the few transformative leaders in modern history, Dr. Martin Luther King, presciently wrote in ‘Letter from Birmingham Jail’ that if political change is left to those urging caution and patience it will never arrive. In this regard the Democrat Party is a branch of the status quo— it exists to preclude, prevent and otherwise impede threats to the existing order. Cooperative strategies depend on a will to cooperate whereas American political economy exists to create and perpetuate concentrated power. ‘Inequality,’ the case where a few people have grotesquely outsized claims on social resources, is self-perpetuating by design.
_______________________________________________

For reasons outlined below the current election cycle is either a referendum on the continued viability of the existing political system or it is nothing. Bernie Sanders’ program will die a quick, ignominious death within the Democrat Party or it will substantially end the hold that the dominant Parties have on the realm of political possibility— there is no ‘third way.’ The wealthy few whose interests the Democrat Party represents— Wall Street, multi-national corporations, corporate executives and the inheritance babies who represent a rapidly growing proportion of the ‘Forbes 500,’ like the current arrangement of circumstance just fine. ‘Compromise’ in the face of uncompromising power is capitulation.
________________________________________________

To understand the current dismal state of the Democrat Party requires some history. In the mid-1970s a bi-partisan counter-revolution was launched against FDR’s New Deal reforms. Democrat President Jimmy Carter, the ‘liberal’ response to the decay of official power from the Vietnam War and the oppressive residual of America’s racial history, was the Barack Obama of his time— poorly regarded by the thinking left as the more politically palatable face of radical capitalist resurgence. By the time that Mr. Carter ran against Ronald Reagan in 1980 few on the left saw reason to support him. After his electoral loss to Mr. Reagan establishment Democrats put forward the revisionist apologia that it was Mr. Carter’s ‘liberal agenda’ that lost the election.

The relevance to current circumstance lies in the misleading explanations of ‘how change happens’ that Democrat apparatchiks are offering in their attempt to control the official Democrat Party narrative. In this view no good deed goes unpunished— well-meaning and guileless Democrats push the people’s interests forward against evil Republicans who will, if given the opportunity, try to privatize Social Security (like Bill Clinton), hand civil governance over to plutocrats and multi-national corporations (like Bill Clinton, Barack Obama); institutionalize extra-judicial killing, intrusive domestic spying and corporate control over the public sphere (like Bill Clinton, Barack Obama) and treat the public interest as a public relations problem to be ‘handled’ with misleading propaganda.
_______________________________________________
Feel like excerpting the whole article, but I'll stop here. It's not like you'll actually read or think. You'll just copy and paste columns of how many people didn't die in three or four years and say we have Clinton's massive incarceration of blacks to thank for it.



http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/01/29/pragmatism-incrementalism-and-the-transformative-moment/

The time is now - not when it's convenient for the establishment.
https://youtu.be/JACq7Tg-J3M
Blickers
 
  1  
Sun 17 Apr, 2016 07:05 pm
@Lash,
And so, once again you refuse to deal with the fact that the supposedly added incarcerations, (we'll deal later how many there really were), were accompanied by a 30% decrease in black murder victimhood. You simply give a link to the incarceration rates and demand that your statistic trumps my statistic of 30% fewer blacks per year being murdered. Newsflash: it doesn't top it. That's why the Clintons, despite Hillary at first running in opposition to Obama, remain popular in the African American community. Despite all the pundits you can Google to decry that fact. And I do believe you've just about Googled them all.

In his Letter from Birmingham Jail, Martin Luther King was not coming about incrementalism in Civil Rights, he was coming out against those white people who claimed to be for it but were willing to wait forever for it to actually start. I pointed this example out before-you ignored it in your "response". So I will just use King's own words in his Letter:
Quote:
Then, last September, came the opportunity to talk with leaders of Birmingham's economic community. In the course of the negotiations, certain promises were made by the merchants--for example, to remove the stores' humiliating racial signs. On the basis of these promises, the Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth and the leaders of the Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights agreed to a moratorium on all demonstrations. As the weeks and months went by, we realized that we were the victims of a broken promise. A few signs, briefly removed, returned; the others remained. As in so many past experiences, our hopes had been blasted, and the shadow of deep disappointment settled upon us. We had no alternative except to prepare for direct action, whereby we would present our very bodies as a means of laying our case before the conscience of the local and the national community.


Martin Luther King was not coming out against incrementalism, he was coming out against waiting forever for progress to begin. He said so in his own words, although you make sure you ignore his words. King was willing to accept progress step by nonviolent step-but there had to be actual progress occurring. In Birmingham and so many other places, there was not.

In Martin Luther King's day, was there any political leader cutting black murder victimhood by 30%? No. Was there any political leader standing up for affirmative action to correct the wrongs of the past? No, that was unheard of. Was there any political leader who was setting national economic policy so that both whites and blacks were moving forward together, in fact the blacks were moving forward a little quicker because they were starting from farther behind, (for historical reasons)? No. But Bill Clinton did all of these things.

Allow me to finally express my disdain at your refusing to write your own response to my post, instead you just do what you always do, Google until you find an article that kind of agrees with your position, then paste all or part of it. When I was a student, teachers were lamenting that students, if asked to write what a rose smells like, would instead of getting a rose and finding out, would instead consult a reference text and write was down there. You seem to be an embodiment of that. With luck, our students will rebel against your type of teacher and actually start obtaining their facts by their own means, instead of relying on "authorities" the teacher approves of.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Sun 17 Apr, 2016 07:12 pm
@snood,
I will read this - complicated day here - but it's on the desktop. I like Kareem for similar reasons to yours. He was Lew Alcindor when I first knew of him. I somewhat followed news about him, including his LAT articles, but not always.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  2  
Mon 18 Apr, 2016 07:18 am
@Lash,
You said to boil it down to one sentence. OK.

Quote:
One of the few transformative leaders in modern history, Dr. Martin Luther King, presciently wrote in ‘Letter from Birmingham Jail’ that if political change is left to those urging caution and patience it will never arrive.


Up to that point, it hasn't arrived, it wasn't really a law where it had to be enforced. We have had slow progress since the letter was written. There is a ways to go, and we will get there if people really want it. People say Hillary goes by polls and popular vote, if enough people want it and it is popular, then by their own logic, Hillary will go for it the same as Bernie Sanders would.

The thing is also to concentrate on getting more control in congress, something Sanders rarely if ever does by way of supporting those who are running for seats.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Mon 18 Apr, 2016 07:27 am
http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/uploader/image/2016/04/15/vox-media-hillary.jpg

A newly released media analysis found that the “biggest news outlets have published more negative stories about Hillary Clinton than any other presidential candidate — including Donald Trump — since January 2015.” The study, conducted by social media software analytics company Crimson Hexagon, also found that “the media also wrote the smallest proportion of positive stories about her.”

As Media Matters has noted throughout the primary campaign, the coverage of Hillary Clinton has tended to focus on fake scandals such as her use of a private email server while her Republican counterparts have enjoyed more positive characterizations. This criticism has been backed up by a former New York Times editor who agreed that the publication has given the Clinton’s “an unfair ‘level of scrutiny.’”

Crimson Hexagon’s analysis, reported by Vox’s Jeff Stein, “shows that the media has battered Clinton more than any other candidate, perhaps because of the ongoing controversy over her emails.” Accusations of “the media being in the tank for Clinton,” Stein notes, simply “may not square with reality.” Crimson Hexagon’s analysis -- which examined reporting from The Washington Post, Politico, Fox News, the Huffington Post, and CNN -- ultimately found that more “negative stories” were published about Clinton than any other presidential candidate, and that Clinton herself received “the smallest proportion of positive stories.”

The biggest news outlets have published more negative stories about Hillary Clinton than any other presidential candidate — including Donald Trump — since January 2015, according to a new analysis of hundreds of thousands of online stories published since last year.

Clinton has not only been hammered by the most negative coverage but the media also wrote the smallest proportion of positive stories about her, reports Crimson Hexagon, a social media software analytics company based out of Boston.

Of course, these numbers are just one way of looking at media bias in the presidential campaign. For instance, while the press has hit Clinton more frequently, Crimson Hexagon also found that it's paid much more attention to her than to Bernie Sanders. And, by design, this kind of analysis may overlook other ways the press can hurt a candidate — like Sanders — by downplaying or dismissing his or her chances.

Still, Sanders's supporters have widely accused the media of being in the tank for Clinton. And these numbers suggest that perception may not square with reality.

[...]

Sanders's supporters have alleged that the press has unfairly treated the Vermont senator's candidacy, even picketing CNN to protest a "media blackout" of their candidate.

At first glance, the Crimson Hexagon data suggests that they're wrong to complain: After all, it shows that the media has battered Clinton more than any other candidate, perhaps because of the ongoing controversy over her emails.

But the greater scrutiny probably also reflects the fact that the media regards her as a much more serious frontrunner than Sanders. And that may really have hurt Sanders's chances as much as — or more than — negative stories.


source
Olivier5
 
  0  
Mon 18 Apr, 2016 07:43 am
@revelette2,
Probably not statistically significant.
Blickers
 
  2  
Mon 18 Apr, 2016 08:31 am
@Olivier5,
I disagree. The whole purpose of starting a scandal is to keep the candidate in a bad light so a certain number of people will decide that they will NEVER vote for them. If you can keep a scandal in the news for a year, that's going to cut some of their support. Even though former Secretary of State Colin Powell has said that he himself used his own Email account for official work, and it has been established that Hillary sent no Emails that were classified, the negative publicity goes on.
Olivier5
 
  -2  
Mon 18 Apr, 2016 08:39 am
@Blickers,
So what? The whole darn media is anti-Hillary now? You make me laugh.

Or perhaps she could have kept her email on govt servers, like everybody else... That last one is not some frivolous fake scandal raised by Hannity, it's a FBI investigation.

As for the comparison with Sanders, the difference in nature of coverage (+ or -) is probably not statistically significant, given how close the Hilary and Bernie profiles are. What is significant though, is that at the start of the primaries, Sanders didn't get much coverage at all, irrespective of the tone.
Blickers
 
  4  
Mon 18 Apr, 2016 08:54 am
@Olivier5,
So what? The Republicans have been trying to generate scandals against the Clintons ever since Bill Clinton had the nerve to actually win the Presidency when the GOP figured that Ronald Reagan had so changed American politics that the presidency was Republican forever. It was Whitewater, Travelgate, Hillary supposedly killed Vince Foster, Filegate, etc etc. Colin Powell said he used his private Email server for official business, it has shown she did not send any classified documents, it's just the Republican way of manufacturing scandals with no substance. Don't say this doesn't hurt her-it doesn't hurt her as much as they like, but they keep doing it because they feel it does hurt her.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Mon 18 Apr, 2016 01:30 pm
@Blickers,
But Sanders doesn't carry all this baggage and yet his negative press coverage appears very close to Clinton's. So?

All what these figures tell me is that it's been a race to the bottom. And it's likely to continue:

Quote:
Hillary Clinton is totally beatable in a general election. Just not by Donald Trump or Ted Cruz.

By Chris Cillizza April 18 at 11:47 AM - The Fix - Washington Post

Take two minutes to flip through the new NBC-Wall Street Journal poll and you are left with two very clear takeaways:

1. Hillary Clinton is deeply vulnerable in a general election.

2. Donald Trump and, to a lesser extent, Ted Cruz, are the exact wrong candidates to take advantage of Clinton's weaknesses.

That is the reality that faces Republicans as they look down the road at the general election. A totally winnable race after eight years out of the White House that may be unwinnable -- or close to it -- because of a primary process that has put forward two of their least appealing general election candidates.[...]

If Clinton and Trump are the two presidential nominees, which still seems the most likely outcome today, you can expect a race-to-the-bottom the likes of which have been rarely seen even in presidential politics. Given where each of the candidate's numbers stand, the only way to win will be to make it a choice between bad and worse.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/04/18/hillary-clinton-is-totally-beatable-in-a-general-election-just-not-by-donald-trump-or-ted-cruz/
revelette2
 
  2  
Mon 18 Apr, 2016 01:36 pm
@Olivier5,
The mythical candidates are not running so really, there is no way to prove or disapprove if she would beatable by any other candidate. As it is right now, she has more popular votes and more delegates than any other candidate including Sanders and Trump. Unless some big huge upset happens, she will be the next president of the US.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Mon 18 Apr, 2016 02:23 pm
@revelette2,
It ain't over until the fat lady sings. :-)
ossobuco
 
  1  
Mon 18 Apr, 2016 02:33 pm
@Olivier5,
Which reminds me of opera, a type of music I eschewed until I grew up in one week and heard the tenors at the Baths of Caracalla. Not personally, but a co worker who was there did, and brought me a tape, a no no back then, taping it.

This whole election cycle would make a good opera, the italian type. I could start to cast the singers, including, of course, chubby ladies and men, and slimmer ones.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Mon 18 Apr, 2016 02:48 pm
@ossobuco,
Er hum... No offences intended! I just love that expression for some reason.
ossobuco
 
  2  
Mon 18 Apr, 2016 03:13 pm
@Olivier5,
I know, many marvelous singers have been on the heavy side. Even I myself have been through a variety of shapes, ms. sylph now, probably a sign of ill health, but the devil of it is, I can't sing. It was horrible, the one time I was the only singer for a requiem mass, the only one who showed up to do it., I might have been twelve. I knew I was bad at it. So did the organist.
0 Replies
 
Blickers
 
  2  
Mon 18 Apr, 2016 05:01 pm
@Olivier5,
http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/uploader/image/2016/04/15/vox-media-hillary.jpg
The chart shows Sanders with slightly more positive coverage and considerably less negative coverage. So I don't think that is immaterial.

As far as Cilliza's analysis, nobody really takes polls seven months before the election all that seriously. The people who are following the election now tend to be political junkies-as the election gets closer to Election Day more bread and butter issues take over. One issue that tends to disappear before the election is immigration, at least among whites. The party that puts the greatest emphasis on fear of immigrants is going to lose ground as November nears.
blatham
 
  2  
Mon 18 Apr, 2016 05:40 pm
Quote:
So did the organist.

Always a great option.

0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Tue 19 Apr, 2016 06:15 am
@Blickers,
I would need to see the data to judge whether the difference is statistically significant. The spread is not that large, about 7%. One would also need to factor in the degree of negativity to get a more accurate picture. I don't think that's very smart to mix together a) articles having some slightly negative remark about a candidate's weakness, with b) the character assassination type of articles.
revelette2
 
  2  
Tue 19 Apr, 2016 06:38 am
Clinton Holds National Lead, Performs Well Among Key Groups in New York: Poll


0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  4  
Tue 19 Apr, 2016 06:50 am
@Olivier5,
I think the other question is "is it relevant"? I know a fair number of really excellent managers in my company. Based on the very little I see of them, a lot of them are not necessarily people I would want to hang around with. They are abrupt, insanely focused, have no time to chit chat, no interest in the small details that are so important to others. I wouldn't want them as my immediate superior. As managers of a 10,000 people division though, they are perfect. Focused on the big picture, knowledgeable of how all the pieces work together, set high standards, these are the people that keep us competitive, safe, profitable. (I will say that one on one in a social setting they might be wonderful.) If someone hasn't stomped on some toes along the line, they have likely not ever faced a significant challenge. There are a lot of fools in politics and in the political media. I imagine that people with no time for fools get the occasional negative article.
 

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