80
   

When will Hillary Clinton give up her candidacy ?

 
 
Lash
 
  0  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 05:26 pm
It's a revolution.

Reports from people in Iowa last night say Bill Clinton and Sanders held rallies less than 2 miles from one another.

Bill pulled 350; Bernie, 1100.

It's on like Donkey Kong.

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/01/27/huge-crowds-surging-polls-sanders-revolution-revs-engine-ahead-iowa
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  2  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 06:03 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
if enacted, would quickly kill the goose that lays the golden eggs, and destroy the economic activity required to pay for all his programs


Exactly, there will be no money for people to pay for all those programs if even payroll taxes and small business are taxed, I don't know how they will afford to pay the taxes needed for the programs in the first place. If his programs cut out tax hikes in those in the lower brackets and smaller businesses capital tax (going off a newly grown limbs on a tree) and just kept it for the big companies who have safe havens in other countries (like Obama has been wanting to do) and other such things (another crack of the tree limb) for big companies, I would for those programs as well. (If the math adds up) But the middle and lower classes can't afford any new tax hikes. They have been taking a killing for years because of the unfair tax havens and other gimmicks of the 1%, Bernie's plans would do them no favors even if he can manage to get blood out the turnips (refers to the middle class and lower)to pay for them.
Lash
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 06:09 pm
Noam Chomsky says Hillary bad voodoo.

http://www.salon.com/2014/01/13/chomsky_tpp_is_a_neoliberal_assault/#st_refDomain=t.co&st_refQuery=/CX3kKx4Clw

She's a neo-liberal.... snicker... Are you?

excerpt:

The TPP - Hillary's brainchild -

"is designed to carry forward the neoliberal project to maximize profit and domination, and to set the working people in the world in competition with one another so as to lower wages to increase insecurity.”

Chomsky said it was “a joke” that the deal is designated a “free trade” agreement. “It’s called free trade, but that’s just a joke,” Chomsky said."

smh at cretins and their dirty self-serving blindspots. Now, georgeob1, you DID see Chomsky's description of Hillary's TPP as 'domination,' eh?
glitterbag
 
  3  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 06:13 pm
@Lash,
Oh, and you don't???? Let me guess, you think I don't like Bernie? I do like Bernie, I just don't need to join in every time one of you 'historians' makes a pronouncement.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 06:16 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

What is important here is very important. The US has now evolved an election industry that makes billions of dollars every cycle, probably every year. If you'd like your representative to spend his/her time working for the citizens of that jurisdiction, you're mostly out of luck because of the time and manpower he/she has to spend on gathering money and involving themselves in the demands of this election industry. If you want election reform, then you're really out of luck because those billions are spread so broadly through the economy that continuation of this madness is incentivized so strongly.


I generally agree with your observations here. There is an election industry and it is growing in cost and influence. I think there are ways we can attenuate it a bit, but most of the broad sectarian proposals for a cure are exceedingly self-serving and may be worse than the disease.

However it interesting to note that our democratic processes have long been seen as corrupt and partticularly disorderly by foreign, particularly European observers. One can find references to that in the writings of numerous European observers, historians and writers going back to the very early 19th century (including figures as wide ranging as de Toqueville, Charles Dickens, Jules Verne, and even Rudyard Kipling). Despite all this we have thrived (no inherent guarantee it will continue though).

The alternatives generally involve more powerful political party structures and/or parliamentary systems.They have their bad side effects too.

The recent movement from State and national conventions of the political parties to state wide primary elections has added enormous cost to Presidential elections with little in the way of public benefit in my view. That is an area I would like to see changed. The old smoke filled rooms had their advantages and the voting public still got the last word.

In a corresponding way most of the relative advantages of the various European systems in this aspect of things stem from greater vested power in the leadership of political parties and the character of the parliamentary syatems themselves. However, many of them have their characteristic problems too.
Kolyo
 
  2  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 06:44 pm
@Lash,
Do you oppose the TPP?

Ed started a thread on it. I don't remember hearing from you on it.
Lash
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 07:03 pm
@Kolyo,
I oppose it virulently.
Kolyo
 
  2  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 07:21 pm
@Lash,
Hillary says she is now against it. Then again she once hoped it would be "gold standard" for trade agreements. So I really can't say where she stands on it. I see this as a strike against her.
blatham
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 07:25 pm
@georgeob1,
I've had my head stuck in a manuscript for three days, editing. My brain is mush. I'll get back to you.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 07:30 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

Now, georgeob1, you DID see Chomsky's description of Hillary's TPP as 'domination,' eh?


I did think he demonstrated a serious determination to prevail in the dialogue, and, as we have learned, that is inherently ugly and dangerous. The hell of it is that Hillary did too.

We also need to end scores in sports; grades in universities, etc. Winners everywhere are ugly and dangerous, and should be suppressed by the right (bad word) thinking folks among us.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 08:02 pm
@Kolyo,
Kolyo, please don't buy that effing lie. She didn't say she "hoped" it would be the gold standard. She said it WAS the gold standard. She's an effing liar.

Please keep score, children.
1. Hillary was a primary architect of TPP.
2. TPP was discovered as being bad for American workers and the American people, but very good for certain corporations and the "politicians" that push it through for them.
3. Bernie Sanders told the news to the American people.
4. The electorate of the US discovered it was bad for them. Thanks, Bernie! <3
5. Hillary tried not to talk about it in the media for a couple of months.
6. The US electorate demanded answers.
7. Hillary, under enormous pressure, began caving on TPP.
8. Hillary, under more pressure, lies like the lying liar she is. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/13/hillary-clinton/what-hillary-clinton-really-said-about-tpp-and-gol/

For Bob's sake. Open your eyes, human beans.
Lash
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 08:03 pm
@Lash,
PS - goddammit, Craven. Can I say Hillary Clinton is a ******* liar? George Carlin will come back from the dead and argue my case...
0 Replies
 
Kolyo
 
  2  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 08:14 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

Kolyo, please don't buy that effing lie. She didn't say she "hoped" it would be the gold standard. She said it WAS the gold standard. She's an effing liar.


I think it's quite likely she will flip back to supporting it if she gets elected. But I'm sure Trump is gung ho in favor as well, and I see this as a two horse race -- sort of, between the centrists and the right-wing extremists. So i'm sticking with the centrists. The TPP is going to happen I'm afraid.
Lash
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 08:15 pm
@Kolyo,
This is reason #2445 that I am against her election - and her as a human being.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 08:25 pm
@snood,
Quote:
you maybe feel like there's actually not as much difference between him and them as meets the eye?


Yep. Being quiet about crap like Lash and other Clinton haters is taking advantage of lies while acting as if his shyt dont stink like everyone elses. But I read an article in which some of the Berns high up people are telling them to let up. Some of the shyt they spread is splashing on Bernie. But the Bern is saying nothing.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 08:28 pm
@revelette2,
Hillery may lose the first two primary states but there are 48 more after that.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  3  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 08:56 pm
@Blickers,
Lash and McGen are are two of a kind. I would have been shocked if he had disagreed with Lash.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 09:17 pm
@revelette2,
It's profoundly ironic that, while the issues Sanders addresses are all real and important, the direct somewhat socialist solutions he proposes simply don't work very well : a fact that has been demonstrated repeatedly over the past century in places as varied as China; Russia and the former Soviet Empire; the first generation post-colonial governments in Africa; in some contemporary social-democratic governments in Europe;and in contemporary Venezuela.

I believe the reasons are to be found in human nature. We are indeed reasoning creatures and it's generally not a difficult intellectual exercise for each of us to deduce and recognize the best solution for the "common good" (if we are disposed to think about that at all), and our own long-term good as well. However that is not what directs our actual behavior. Impulse, perceived self-interest, delusions of many sorts, and natural appetites are the main things that deive our actions, and we are perfectly capable of actions that harm both the collective good and also our own good, as the lives of most of us amply demonstrate.

These facts also act to defeat even the best-conceived plans and structures designed by even well intentioned, thoughtful people with good ends in mind for the common welfare. People simply don't behave as such thinkers predict or believe they should. Indeed we often act in ways contrary to our own best self-interest. A consequence is that, while the gross average behavior of large groups in broad areas may be partly predictable, the actual behavior of humans is endlessly complex, and that acts to defeat even the best designed systems intended for their welfare.

In spite of his obviously obnoxious personality, Prof Jonathan Gruber of MIT and the others who worked on the very complex arrangements for Obamacare were undoubtedly very intelligent and capable. Despite their efforts the system they created is collapsing in a sea of unfolding contradictions between their design and the actual wants and actions of the people they imagine they were serving. Except for new Medicaid enrolees insurance costs are rising, not falling, and most of the new exchanges created under the program have gone bankrupt, leaving the taxpayers to pick up the tab.

The late Soviet Union dedicated enormous resources and talented people to the effective central planning of their socialist economy. In the early years important advances in mathematical theory and applications were made in this, then new, field. In the early stages, while they were creating new industries and new services with unemployed people and a sometimes ruthless Party apparatus to enforce their plans, it all appeared (very briefly) to work. However it soon collapsed into inefficient mediocrity under the gravity of its own contradictions with the real behavior of the people it sought to control. The popular joke in the Soviet Union in the early 1980s was, " We pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us".

The hell of it is that truly complex systems (like human behavior) can't be effectively governed by closed form prescriptive systems. One can limit some outcomes (and behaviors) by preventing or punishing them, but one cannot effectively direct general behavior to a given outcome. That's why market economies work better and why crowd sourcing techniques for innovation are proving effective in some cases.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 09:20 pm
@georgeob1,
You're assuming the government takeover of all commerce which will never happen in the US.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Thu 28 Jan, 2016 09:43 pm
@cicerone imposter,
No I'm not. I'm stating some general principles that make good sense and conform to our experience of life. These principles basically mean that the more we wttempt to control and direct human behavior in comprehensive ways (as opposed to merely limiting it in specified areas as in criminal penalties) the more unintended side effects we will encounter and the less reliable will be the outcomes.

Indeed even the attempt to limit behavior as in criminal law and penalties is replete with side effects as we have amply seen.

It's not binary at all. A little central control and socialism does a little harm: more of it does more harm (as in Greece) and a whole lot creates chaos as in Venezuela.
 

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