80
   

When will Hillary Clinton give up her candidacy ?

 
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Sat 23 Jan, 2016 01:51 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:
Not nearly as possible as a candidate who played buddy buddy with the John Society-not as a youth-but as a middle aged adult running for office. I refer of course to President George H. W. Bush. I don't recall you being upset about that.

What is "the John Society" and what does "playing buddy buddy" mean ?

Bush I was actually president and, while I believe he made some serious errors (the original Gulf War most prominently), he actually held power and was no tyrant. Apparently you want to compare what you claim to be similar behaviors (though what they are isn't clear), though how they may relate to outcomes makes no sense at all. Indeed the more I think about what you wrote the less I think it means anything at all.
Blickers
 
  3  
Sat 23 Jan, 2016 01:57 pm
@georgeob1,
Typo on my part. It was the John Birch society, not a fraternal organization of potential customers for hookers. And Bush I was buddy buddy with them.
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Sat 23 Jan, 2016 02:17 pm
@Blickers,
If so I can see no consequences of it in his actual behavior while in office. Can you? What exactly does "buddy buddy" mean? I doubt that he was a member or a contributor. Bush didn't advocate any suthoritarian solutions to our economic problems and challenges in his politicak rhetoric, and he didn't pursue any while actually in office. He oversaw a fairly risky situation for us during the disintegration of the former Soviet Empire without any revenge or retribution. What consequences do you see in the dubious connection you have alleged?

.
More sophistry, non sequitors and illogic. It must be contagious.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  -1  
Sat 23 Jan, 2016 04:19 pm
@blatham,
Mafias infiltrate.
FBI and similar infiltrate. World wide.
I don't mean they work together, although that has been heard of, people going over, but that they work as associates.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Sat 23 Jan, 2016 04:29 pm
@blatham,
Just read it, thanks, good link.

urrrgh
0 Replies
 
NSFW (view)
RABEL222
 
  1  
Sat 23 Jan, 2016 11:16 pm
@snood,
Sorry I misread your post. I thought you said that he couldent get a republican congress to pass tax laws to pay for his policies. That I agree with.
0 Replies
 
Blickers
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jan, 2016 12:51 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1, in saying why he thinks Bernie Sanders will turn into another Hugo Chavez:
Quote:
....Could this all happen to a nice Jewish boy from Brooklyn who attended Brooklyn college, and got a BS in Political Science from the University of Chicago, while participating in the then avant garde political movements including The Young People's Sociualist League, CORE and SNCC; lived briefly in a kibbutz in Israel and then pursued a lifelong career in politics? I think it possible.


In response, Blickers wrote:
Quote:
Not nearly as possible as a candidate who played buddy buddy with the John [Birch] Society-not as a youth-but as a middle aged adult running for office. I refer of course to President George H. W. Bush. I don't recall you being upset about that.


As a middle aged man in the early sixties, George HW Bush became head of the Harris County, Tx, Republican Party. The party was overrun with members of the John Birch Society, who preached that the Civil Rights movement was a Communist plot. George HW Bush, while not one of the Birchers, played up to them and tried to placate them. From a review of a biography of his father by Bush 43:
Quote:
Leading the Republican Party in Houston in the early 1960s, H. W. was forced to confront members of the putrid John Birch Society, an important constituency within the party in Texas at the time. Now, W. writes, even though his father did not like the Birchers, “diplomacy was [his] first instinct, and he tried hard to bring the Birchers into the fold. He instructed the party leadership to stop referring to Birchers as ‘nuts,’ and he appointed Birch Society members to chair several important precincts.” .....

.....In what I strongly suspect was a cynical effort to cater to racist whites, H. W. ran for the Senate on a platform opposing the 1964 Civil Rights Act on “states’ rights” grounds — a political position that ranks among the most specious arguments ever conceived for rationalizing a system of legal apartheid.

https://lareviewofbooks.org/essay/hatchet-hatchet-dust-jacket-dust-reading-new-york-times-nonfiction-bestseller-list

Did Bush the Father become a dictator when he was president? No. Yet, you give Bernie Sanders' history which is replete with organizations that seek social justice, and you say it disposes him to authoritarianism. Yet George HW Bush played footsie with people who thought Martin Luther King was a Communist, and Bush also opposed the greviously needed 1964 Civil Rights Bill finally granting rights to blacks that were denied since Emancipation, and he didn't turn into a dictator. Even though Bush the Father had a history which would certainly make him more likely to be an authoritarian than Sanders. So if Bush didn't turn into a dictator, why do you think Sanders might, if he wins?

georgeob1
 
  -1  
Sun 24 Jan, 2016 01:33 am
@Blickers,
Well in the first place I think the probability of a Bernie Sanders victory in the Presidential election is vanishingly small and the probablity of that combined with a Congress that would go along with his absurd plans even smaller.

Beyond that I note that everything we know about GHW Bush's behavior before he became president and the political & economic philosophies the artiuculated and supported in those days, indicated a man dedicated to the preservation of American democracy and the traditions of free enterprise and individuasl freedom that has long gone with it. Moreover he always showed, perhaps to a fault, a willingness to work with the other side politically - and that I think was illustrated in your story. In stark contrast Bernie Sanders has been the odd man out throughout his political career, and has set himself apart from nearly everyone around him. Also in stark contrast, his experience so far in life is far narrower than that of GHW Bush when he became president.

I don't think that either CORE or ther SNCC were, in their time, either moderate or particularly democratic. Indeed they were basically radfical movements whose time came and went, and which passed from our political scene leaving little of benefit to mark their existences.

In short, while I find Sanders to be a somewhat likelable individual, I note a streak of radical authoritarinism in him that I find to be truly potentially dangerous. The good news here is that apart from his very enthusiastic (and naive) supporters, enough people in the country see those qualities and dangers so as to render him virtually unelectable as President. Indeed had it not been for the steadily growing public impression of Clinton sleeze and lies his campaign prospects would be maginal at best. Sanders popularity among a dedicated minority of Democrats is more a reflection of growing disenchantment with Clinton than acclaim for his special virtues. In this area I suspect his position is somewhat like that of Donald Trump among Republicans.

None of this is likely a surprise to you. However, it is clear that you are more interested in making a point, with a very weak case, than in critically examining the situatiuon.
blatham
 
  2  
Sun 24 Jan, 2016 02:30 am
@georgeob1
re "mental states". Contrast Jeb Bush and Chris Christie. The latter commonly acts as a bully in his interactions whereas Jeb does not. Christie yells at people, he thrusts his body forward in a manner designed to threaten and intimidate. He insults. Jeb does none of these things or does them very rarely. Those differing behaviors are a manifestation of intentions and personal mental states. Christie's urges are towards domination of others to a degree or in a manner which can't be said about Jeb.

An authoritarian manifests mental states different from those who are not that sort of individual. The present Pope has very different things going on in his noggin that Stalin or Mussolini. But Stalin and Mussolini were very similar to each other.



blatham
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jan, 2016 02:40 am
Very good piece by Jon Chait at NY Mag. Here's title and one graph but I recommend reading the full piece, it's not long and it's smart
Quote:
How Conservatism Created Donald Trump
...This week, National Review has an editorial and a cover symposium with 19 conservatives denouncing Trump as “crude,” a “boor,” “astoundingly ignorant of everything that to govern a powerful, complex, influential, and exceptional nation such as ours he would have to know,” and so on. One of the writers, Andrew McCarthy, a National Review contributing editor, expresses astonishment that Trump could not identify such figures as Hassan Nasrallah, Ayman al-Zawahiri, and Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. When Palin responded to a question about the Bush Doctrine with bug-eyed incomprehension, McCarthy angrily dismissed the suggestion that she did not know what it was as “nonsense.”
http://nym.ag/1ngQmIW
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jan, 2016 03:13 am
I truly despise this man.
Quote:

As the water crisis in Flint, Michigan, continues, Gov. Rick Snyder (R) is speaking out more about his perspective on the scandal, and this morning talked to MSNBC about where he’s assigning blame. The Detroit News reported it this way:
Quote:
Gov. Rick Snyder on Friday continued to lay blame at the feet of state Department of Environmental Quality employees for failing to require Flint to add corrosion control chemicals to its river water that could have prevented lead from leaching into the drinking water supply.

The Republican made frequent references to “culture” during the interview, complaining about public agencies lacking a “culture of asking the common-sense questions,” adding there’s “a huge bureaucratic problem and it’s part of the problem with culture in government.”

The rhetoric was jarring in large part because it came from the governor himself. When Rick Snyder refers to problems with “government,” he’s specifically talking about Rick Snyder’s administration. The decisions that did so much damage in Flint were made by emergency managers appointed by the governor himself.

Even the state Department of Environmental Quality employees Snyder is now blaming are employees who answer to him.

At one point, he added, “Let’s look at the entire cultural background of how people have been operating” – which is to say, the culture of how people have been operating in Snyder’s own administration.
http://on.msnbc.com/1ngSvo9
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jan, 2016 03:49 am
I'm not a fan of either Maureen Dowd or Kathleen Parker. I see both as something rather like gossip columnists and don't believe either deserve their positions in the Post and the Times (when there are so many other political writers far more worthy of attention - because we can learn from them rather than be titilated). But sometimes, either of them can do it right. Or rather, they can make a smart observation. That's something but it is not enough.
Quote:
The challenge for those of us in the observation business is to illuminate what’s plainly obvious without offending those who prefer not to see. But there’s no winning once passions are engaged, and hating the messenger is a time-honored tradition. Even though it was, in fact, obvious in 2008 that Palin was out of her league, as I pointed out in a column, her fans wouldn’t hear of it. About 20,000 of them took time out of their busy schedules to send me emails expressing their displeasure. (I’ve kept them all for nursing-home share time.) The whole episode was instructive in multiple ways, but most important, it foretold a dumbing down of the GOP that eight years later may prove irreversible.
http://wapo.st/1ngU45v
Yes. But what is missing here (as it is in almost all of what Parker or Dowd write) is any real address to how this has come about. And unless that is studied carefully and some true understanding of causes fathomed, we learn little.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jan, 2016 04:05 am
David Sirota ‏@davidsirota 38m38 minutes ago
An election revolving around anger at corporate class & billionaires definitely needs @MikeBloomberg as a candidate.

0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Sun 24 Jan, 2016 04:08 am
Why you should vote for Bernie Sanders

http://linkis.com/www.thenation.com/ar/uS6LH

Your nation, under a rock.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  2  
Sun 24 Jan, 2016 10:00 am
Clinton Leads Sanders By 22; O'Malley at 10%; New Zogby Poll

As Hillary Clinton builds a large lead against Bernie Sanders among Democrats nationwide, it appears that Martin O’Malley is cutting into the Vermont Senator’s base of support. A new Zogby Analytics Poll of 373 likely Democratic caucus and primary voters, conducted nationwide online January 19-20, shows Mrs. Clinton with 49% support, Mr. Sanders at 27%, and Mr. O’Malley with 10%. One in seven Democrats are still undecided.

Mrs. Clinton leads among men (49% to 29% for Sanders and 14% for O’Malley) and women (49% to 25% for Sanders and 7% for O’Malley). It is a much closer horse among 18-29 year olds with Mrs. Clinton at 40% to Mr. Sanders’ 33% and Mr. O’Malley’s 23%. Mrs. Clinton polls 55% among 30-49 year olds (to 25% and 5% for Sanders and O’Malley), 51% among 50-64 year olds (to 26% and 7% for Sanders and O’Malley), and 4% among those over 65 (to 28% and 8% for Sanders and O’Malley).

Mrs. Clinton is solid among Democrats (61% to 22% for Mr. Sanders and only 7% for Mr. O’Malley), but the tables are turned among independents with Mr. Sanders leading at 45% to Mrs. Clinton’s 20% and Mr. O’Malley’s 13%. Liberals support Mrs. Clinton 62% to 25% over Mr. Sanders and 7% for Mr. O’Malley. She also has strong support among self-described moderates (45% to 32% for Mr. Sanders and 7% for O’Malley). About one in five voters in this sample described themselves as “conservative” and the results were interesting: 32% Clinton, 23% O’Malley, and 20% Sanders.

Mrs. Clinton maintains an 8 point advantage over Mr. Sanders among white Democrats (41% to 33% for Mr. Sanders to 9% for Mr. O’Malley), and just an 8 point advantage among Hispanics (40% to 32% for Mr. Sanders and 20% for Mr. O’Malley). But she continues to be bolstered by deep support among African American voters – 72% to only 13% for Mr. Sanders and just 2% for Mr. O’Malley. African Americans represented 22% of the sample.

At this stage, Mrs. Clinton is triumphant nationally, a lead perhaps enabled by Mr. O’Malley’s little bump in the polls. For Mr. Sanders it will take double wins in Iowa and New Hampshire to change the national standing. This could indeed happen. Voters in both Iowa and New Hampshire have been known to surprise the nation.
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jan, 2016 11:26 am
Extremely good piece by Bruce Bartlett at link. I'll just post a couple of graphs...
Quote:
The Trump phenomenon perfectly represents the culmination of populism and anti-intellectualism that became dominant in the Republican Party with the rise of the Tea Party. I think many Republican leaders have had deep misgivings about the Tea Party since the beginning, but the short-term benefits were too great to resist. A Trump rout is Republican moderates’ best chance to take back the GOP.


Quote:
Although the far right’s mythology paints the Reagan years as the triumph of their ideas, the truth is that he governed very much in the moderate tradition of postwar Republican presidents. Reagan raised taxes 11 times, gave amnesty to illegal aliens, pulled American troops out of the Middle East, supported environmental regulations, raised the debt limit and appointed many moderates to key positions, including on the Supreme Court. But he skillfully kept his right flank protected by using thundering conservative rhetoric, even as he violated his own stated principles on a regular basis.
http://politi.co/1QmE9fB
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jan, 2016 11:58 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

@georgeob1
re "mental states". Contrast Jeb Bush and Chris Christie. The latter commonly acts as a bully in his interactions whereas Jeb does not. Christie yells at people, he thrusts his body forward in a manner designed to threaten and intimidate. He insults. Jeb does none of these things or does them very rarely. Those differing behaviors are a manifestation of intentions and personal mental states. Christie's urges are towards domination of others to a degree or in a manner which can't be said about Jeb.

An authoritarian manifests mental states different from those who are not that sort of individual. The present Pope has very different things going on in his noggin that Stalin or Mussolini. But Stalin and Mussolini were very similar to each other.


I agree with much of what you wrote here. Christie appears to have the traits of a bully, qualities I suspect shared by both Stalin and Mussilini. Certainly this is a factor that doesn't recommend any of them.

However not all tyrants are bullies in that sense. Their beliefs and goals in their use of power count for as much or more. I don't know much about the related personal characteristics of either Mao or Pol Pot, but do know they acted through others in far more subtle ways to do greatr evil (to use an apparently favorite term of yours). Hitler appeares to have had some other odd almost feminine qualities, and, though murderous and aggressive, was no bully in the sense that Mussolini was, though the two appeard to bond.

Compared to Stalin, Lenin was an intellectual, relatively affable, and far more loyal and collegial with his associates in the revolution. However it was he who coined the phrases and creaded the programs for "using useful idiots" znd "eliminating the irreconcilables" in advancing the cause of revolution. Both involved mass deception and murder.

Most significant here are the programs and structures for governance for which the seekers of political power strive. Some involve the creation of authoritatian political structures that will limit freedom and others don't. We all know that in many ways our characters are shaped by the things we habitually do. The descent into tyranny on the part of an otherwise so far innocent leader, but one in the grip of a really bad idea is a comon enough story in human history. As I suggested Hugo Chavez may be an example.
Blickers
 
  1  
Sun 24 Jan, 2016 12:10 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote georgeob1:
Quote:
Beyond that I note that everything we know about GHW Bush's behavior before he became president and the political & economic philosophies the artiuculated and supported in those days, indicated a man dedicated to the preservation of American democracy and the traditions of free enterprise and individuasl freedom that has long gone with it.


So in other words, George HW Bush was a conservative, which is your side of the fence, and so even though he hung around with John Birch Society members in the early sixties who went around saying that Martin Luther King was a Communist and that the entire civil rights movement was a Communist plot to make a "fifth column" of Negroes in America to facilitate a Communist takeover, you say there is nothing in Bush's past to indicate he might go authoritarian.

However, Bernie Sanders is a liberal, which is not your side of the fence, so the fact that Bernie spent his younger years trying to get equal rights for black people illustrates that Bernie has dangerously authoritarian tendencies which might show themselves if, God forbid, he should ever achieve the White House. This is your analysis.

Egad.
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Sun 24 Jan, 2016 12:17 pm
@revelette2,
I agree that Hillary Clinton is, at this point, the most likely Democrat nominee. However, I would not call either her progress so far or her status as "triumphant" as you have. There is great, intense and somewhat unexpected enthusiasm for Sanders among many Democrats ( propelled I believe by Hillary's several vulnerabilities and perceptions of Sander's greater authenticity). Bernie is likely to win the New Hampshire and Iowa primaries, though his prospects in some that follow are not nearly as good.

O'Malley has so far been a deservedly insignificant figure in the primary contest, and while I agree that gains in his poll numbers may be more likely from the Sanders camp than from Hillary's, I seriously doubt they will be either significant or decisive.

Meanwhile there is a difficult to forecast ongoing steady erosion of Hillary's support caused, in my opinion, by a combination of continuing revelations concerning her inept and self-serving behavior as Secretary of State; her penchant for evading the truth (and appearing relatively unauthentic in comparison to Bernie),; and her rather flat uninspiring performance as a campaigner.

Adding to this are the continuing revelations about her self-serving misuse of highly sensitive intelligence information and the possibilities of further damaging revelations and ewven an indictment. As a minimum that will make her exceedingly vulnerable in the final election - a factor that I believe is very much a concern to other Democrat leaders, and may well be the central motivator for the revent Mike Bloomberg announcement.
 

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