ADAM'S RIB

@maxdancona,

Ok, let's start with facts.

From your own facts, how many of those murders where done by women?

Max wrote:

11,000 men are murdered each year.
3,500 women are murdered.

@timur,

Timur, this thread is about ideological purity. Some people here are unable to accept (or even acknowledge) facts that contradict their ideological narrative.

I am not one of those people. I have no problem stating the obvious fact that more murders are committed by men then by women (and that thus more women are killed by men then by women).

If you, or someone else, can simply acknowledge the other obvious fact, that men are more likely to be a victim of a violent crime (including murder) than women, then we would be getting somewhere. This fact is clearly true from the data.

Intelligent discussion means considering all of the facts. I have no problem doing that. As the saying goes, everyone has a right to their own opinion but not their own facts.

I have stated emphatically that both of these facts are true. Can you do the same?

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At least no one is talking about stealing my "Adam's Ribs" restaurant idea...

Probably because it sucks, but still...

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@maxdancona,

Well, we must be talking about different things. As I understand, this thread is about mistreatment of women and the reasons of such.

It's my experience, which can seem anecdotal, that women are a lot more mistreated, beaten and raped than men.

But I have some facts in store to support my thesis.

If you are going to support the poor little men that are victims of the innate wickedness of women, let's continue..

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@timur,

Why hold your facts "in store" Timur? The facts are quite available for anyone to see. I posted my data from the BJS. Go ahead, post your facts.

The fact is in the US men are more likely to be victims of violent crime (when considering all crimes together) than women. And men are more likely to be victims than women of any type of violent crime other than sexual assault.

This is the claim that I have made in this thread... and it is solidly backed by the facts. You are welcome to provide any facts that contradict this (except there aren't any).

The interesting part of this thread is how an ideological narrative is overruling clear, well-documented facts.

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@ehBeth,

Quote:

If it is of particular interest to you, you might like to consider starting a thread on the subject.

It's America's sons and daughters who may end up raped in their prisons. I don't care too much. Just wanted to flag that boys and men can be victims of rape too, probably more often than girls and women in the US if these data I quoted is correct. Also I find the issue of female rape on females interesting, from a gender perspective. It doesn't fit the OP narrative of women as perpetual victims of men.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

I truly do not understand why so many men are terrified of women,

What are they afraid of?

this part of the original post is what interests me.

It definitely reflects what I see at A2k.

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What strikes me here, is that nobody on the thread denies that men are mistreated and killed. But some posters here get hysterical anytime women are pointed out as being mistreated.

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@edgarblythe,

too true

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Quote:

The fact is in the US men are more likely to be victims of violent crime (when considering all crimes together) than women. And men are more likely to be victims than women of any type of violent crime other than sexual assault.

This is the claim that I have made in this thread... and it is solidly backed by the facts. You are welcome to provide any facts that contradict this (except there aren't any).

I don't deny your assertions but I consider it sidetracking.

The fact that more men are victims of violent crimes is explained by men committing more violent crimes on men.

But what has it to do with women being a lot more victims than perpetrators of crimes?

The mistreatment of women isn't only violent crimes but a whole range of abuse.

They suffer of that a lot more than men.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

I truly do not understand why so many men are terrified of women, vilify them all the time, beat, rape and murder them. What are they afraid of? When one considers just how dangerous society is for women, i am amazed at the ordinary courage they display on a daily basis--just to go out of the house into public may well be taking their lives in their hands.

I like 'em . . . we need more of them.

Only Republicans fear women. That is the reason they control them with laws about abortion, close abortion clinics.

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@ehBeth,

This is an ad hominem. I haven't expressed any fear of women. I haven't seen anyone on this thread communicate any level of fear of women. All I am doing is using facts to question the false narrative being put forward.

I do have a fear of ideology... particularly those that override facts.

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@edgarblythe,

It's similar to discussions about the ongoing difficulties of being a person of colour/immigrant in America. Those often end up as discussions of either how evil/bad/stupid those people (or others who are conflated with them) are or the troubles white people have with x or y in America.

Say what?

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@timur,

Quote:

The mistreatment of women isn't only violent crimes but a whole range of abuse.

They suffer of that a lot more than men.

This claim fits into the ideological narrative, but again you post it in spite of the facts. Abuse is counted in the violent crime statistics.

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@ehBeth,

Thank you EhBeth... you agree with me! It is exactly like that!

When men are victims of crime... Timur dismisses explains it way saying it is "men committing more violent crimes on men." When minorities are victims of crime, it is explained away the same way.... saying "Blacks are committing more violent crimes on Blacks."

The number of unarmed men getting shot by police officers is a current problem that brings the two together.

Finally EhBeth, a voice of reason.

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Max wrote:

When men are victims of crime... Timur dismisses explains it way saying it is "men committing more violent crimes on men." When minorities are victims of crime, it is explained away the same way.... saying "Blacks are committing more violent crimes on Blacks."

Talk about a straw man!

You were the one asking for a sound debate and now you are refuting you own statements:

Max wrote:

I have no problem stating the obvious fact that more murders are committed by men then by women

I have no patience for crappy debates where the bias is obvious.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Intellectual honesty means putting facts above your ideological beliefs.

If you show me where facts contradict my beliefs, I not only will change my mind, but I will appreciate it. I love having my beliefs challenged with facts.

which belief would you like challenged, your idealogical belief or your factual beliefs.

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@glitterbag,

Either one Glitterbag. I don't like ideological purity.

The best way to avoid getting stuck in ideology is to look at the facts whether or not they support my beliefs. In the cases where the facts contradict my beliefs, I change my beliefs.

The BJS statistics seem pretty clear cut. Men are more likely to be killed, or beaten or robbed then women (but women are more likely to be sexually assaulted). Any of these are pretty unlikely, our society is very safe for both men and women by any realistic measure.

I would love to see other data.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
What's demonstrably true is that men are the most violent. Naturally they kill lots of other men, because men are the most violent and other violent men get in the way.

Hmmmm.... when people make the same argument about racial differences in violence, I find it quite offensive. I expect you would too. Would you make the same argument about racial differences in violence?

Let's see how it sounds.

Quote:
What's demonstrably true is that Blacks are the most violent. Naturally they kill lots of other Blacks, because Blacks are the most violent and other violent Blacks get in the way.

That sounds pretty bad.

Here's the thing, Edgar didn't single out a particular race, you did. If you substitute girl scouts for men, it becomes a joke. i.e. What's demonstrably true is that girl scouts are the most violent.

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@FBM,

geez, i hate to the bearer of bad news, but there is a chain called "Adams Ribs" in Maryland. And they do serve ribs, bbq, burgers, the woiks.

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