ADAM'S RIB

Setanta and I are playing around... but I want to make a serious comment about how we view women in society. There are two ways to objectify women. I think it is interesting that songs that Setanta and I have posted in our little back and forth represent both sides.

Setanta posted "Always a Woman" with the lyrics



This puts a woman, or women in general on a pedestal. She is not a human being with a respectful relationship... she is something to be worshiped and feared.

I posted "Mambo #5" which represents the other side of the coin. Here the man is the center and the women are there for him.

I would argue that both of these represent the same thing. It is idealizing the concept of womanhood to fit a societal mold. Of course this is popular culture we are discussing, not policy and popular culture is supposed to explore all kinds of roles and themes... and individual relationships between men and women are unique. It is a good thing that all of these songs exist.

The best thing for society is for women (and men) to be treated as human beings... equals. Either worshiping or treating them as playthings are not the way that women (or men) should be treated by our general culture.

From when she was still young . . .

I posted this in another thread, ti'll work here. I love Little Miss Can't Be Wrong, too.

I prefer Little Miss Higgins

Now that's what i call an art song!

you are right, i said it wrong (english is not my mother tongue and i translated literally from spanish) i meant the day little boys bear the same grade of discrimination as little girls i assure you i´ll fight for them too. i´m a feminist because i believe women should have the same rights men have. i don´t want little boys to suffer, i want little girls to stop suffering that discrimination. i don´t fight for men´s right cause in this situation we are talking about they are not the ones discriminated. thats all

I am an anti-feminist for the same reason.

It is ridiculous to say that boys in the US (or in modern western cultures) don't suffer as much discrimination as girls do. Boys are more likely to be put on medication than girls. They are more likely to be beaten up, and more likely to have mental health issues. They are more likely to be disciplined (or suspended) than girls. They are less likely to go to college than girls.

Equality means equality. It means that we need to challenge all gender stereotypes, not just the ones that fit a certain political narrative.

I am curious what country you are from. Are you currently in the US? I have spent a fair amount of time in Mexico and I am very interested in the cultural differences surrounding gender issues between these two countries.

i´m from spain and our culture is quite different from mexican

I am curious about whether you relate to this story Momoends....

I have a friend from Spain who now lives here in the US. She went on a date with an American man. The date went very well, they had a very nice dinner and very clearly felt attracted to each other.

After the date this man asked her "would it be OK if I kiss you"? (Asking for permission before any contact is being pushed by some people now...).

My friend started laughing... she couldn't help herself. She feels that American men are becoming too timid, and that a real Spanish man would just reach over and kiss her (and accept the risk that he might be rejected or slapped).

This poor American man, who was just trying to do the new right thing, must have felt like an idiot.

Do you relate to this story?

several real spanish men have asked me before trying to kiss me.... i don´t considered them idiots at all

This is not surprising, people are different and have different experiences. I am glad it works for you.

I will point out that this makes it awfully difficult for the man. Some women want to be asked first, some women just want a man to kiss her. You have to try to make the right guess.

If an attractive woman ever decides to kiss me after a date, I won''t mind a bit. I don't remember this ever happening outside of an existing relationship (and I don't think I would forget such a thing). Women will sometimes make it clear non-verbally that they want to be kissed.

well its like being in a clothes shop a having to decide whether you choose the shirt with a provocative cleavage or the one with a more decent cut but lovely colors... yo see... some men like self confident women with a sexy style and not afraid of showing their bodies, but some like the discreet ones, that dress in soft colors and modest cut clothes so they look sweeter and good girl-er

if an attractive man ever decides to tell me on advance what kind of clothes should i wear on a date, so i knew on advance i would not look out of place, i won´t mind a bit. i don´t recall that ever happened. Men will sometimes make it clear non-verbally that they like the way you look on a date