IS IT GETTING MEAN AROUND HERE??

Nobody believed that Rome could fall, even the Germanic soldiers and kings who besieged it were shocked when it happened. The thing had dominated this part of the world for so long... Everybody thought it was eternal. Long after its fall, people were still trying to reconstruct it: Charlemagne for instance.

Maybe you are right that these things cannot be predicted, and that the doomsday preachers always get it wrong. But western civilization as we know it WILL end. In any case, it is changing quite fast. Democracy in particular doesn't mean much anymore.

The fall of the Roman Empire did not end civilization...

Hawkeye is constantly predicting the end of civilization...

You want to engage in still more meaningless hot air speculation with him, go right ahead.

This place hasn't just gotten meaner, it's also gotten intellectually shallow and quite boring.

Hmm... You got that right. It's not going to regain any depth by discarding discussions off hand though, nor by throwing more insults at people with different views.

I'm not saying I agree with Hawk, but I see the question as interesting and worth a discussion. If you don't, why do you even bother? Not enough romance threads?

Yup, that's as intellectually shallow as you can get.

Thanks for contributing yet another insult to the debate, Izzy.

I don't see A2K surviving as a viable discussion forum that much longer.

The last few years have seen the quality and level and diversity of serious discussion here continue to decline drastically, and as more and more intelligent thoughtful people departed from the site, newcomers who dropped in were mainly seeking relationship advice of some sort, and tended not to remain here beyond that, and there was little general high level discussion to attract more intellectually minded individuals, people interested in thinking and learning more than in just spouting opinions or trying to win a debate. So gradually, threads became pissing contests, not real discussions, they have become more repetitive, and they have become meaner, driving off even more posters in the process. That vicious cycle keeps pulling this site down even more.

I'm not concerned about the impending demise of civilization --I've caught Chicken Little's histrionic mantra on that subject before, many times, and listening to him on the same soapbox over and over is simply boring. I think the demise of A2K is considerably more imminent.

So, I think the answer to the title of this thread is a decided, "Yes!" And I think it's just going to get even worse because why would newbies want to join an alleged "community" site where animosity among posters seems to be the prevalent emotion being expressed.

Yeah to all that, Firefly...but I have participated in at least eight other forums...and this is what one finds in each of them.

Abuzz was the baby of the New York Times and Boston Globe!

And it was this way.

Open Salon was the child of Salon.Com...and it had incredible amounts of garbage and hatred being tossed. (Open Salon closed down.)

It is the way of things on the Internet.

Even the comments on youtube are heated and nasty.

If A2K goes...and I am not saying it won't...it will be because sites like this come and go...and not because the crap being tossed here is any stinkier than the crap being tossed in other sites.

Hawkeye's regular pronouncements on the end of A2k is where the use of Chicken Little originally came from.

I agree.

Part of the problem I think is linked to the small number of posters and the fact that many have been here for a very long time, forging alliances and enmities that they cannot betray now, and that tie them into a set of positions they can't afford to change.

E.g. many people here cannot be seen as agreeing with Hawk, whatever he says, even if their lives depended on it. The same, to a lesser extent, applies to me. The mere fact that I say something here leads some to disagree or put down that position by reflex.

Some long-time posters have also developed a strong sense of ownership for the place and they tend to dislike, discourage or disparage newcomers just to keep the place cozy.

I have myself come to place on ignore about half of regular posters, and am probably being ignored by more than that. I can't remember the last time I was part of an interesting discussion here. A2Kers tend to be afraid of that, it seems, afraid of getting out of their comfort zone. Most people in life are afraid of what's out of the ordinary, in my experience.

Not to mention the thumb monkeys, thumbing down totally innocuous posts just because some particular poster wrote them... How puerile is that?

Not that I care much. I've been here for about 2 years now, perhaps less. Never been a community-oriented person, never had many friends or attachments. Call me a loner. You could count my friends on A2K on the fingers of an old Yakuza hand.

I have been registering and started posting on another board, to test the waters. If it works for me, I'll move there. A bit of a pity but a man got to do what a man got to do.

But, in the almost 11 years I've been here, I've never made such pronouncements until now.

I really feel like the bottom has fallen out of this place, on all fronts. I've mentioned the decline in the discussion threads, but even in many of the trivia and game threads, I've seen a marked slow-down in responses, much more noticeable than anything I can recall in the past, and it seems like these days we barely have any "community" participation in birthday threads, or get well threads, to express positive feelings or support for each other.

I miss the way A2K used to be, I used to enjoy coming here. I really can't say that these days. And, judging by how many have left here, or barely post any more, I'm not the only one.

My comment was in regard to the Hawkeye/Chicken Little connection.

What you, or anyone else, feels about life at A2k is everybody's own feeling. I wasn't commenting on that.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, though I've noticed some changes and some of these are a bit disheartening. However, in my time here...over 12 years (as well as days on Abuzz), I've heard many people crying in despair and make the same pronouncements: "The end is nigh!"

FWIW, I've noticed the timing...as has happened in the past...as the Presidential election year ramps up, the activity wanes or increases and rancor gets more frenzied as it does every 4 years. This election year, the choices are worse...and the stakes are much higher.

When it comes to the heavier more serious issues within politics,,,and to some degree, philosophy..some people will keep repeating themselves ad absurdum...no matter what ... without any regard to the logic or debate. They have the right to do so..as do the repeaters. However, those who might be more skilled at debate and presenting their logical cases, keep engaging with the repeaters and/or the less skilled...for days..and over many different topics threads.

Now, simply put, that can't be good for the health of the community, can it?

As I wrote, this is all cyclical, for this reason and some others which are less obvious. Summer months are heating up down south at least in US....and in the Midwest and northeastern US and EU, they'll be out of the deep-freeze and into spring. People will be less around their computers. So lesser activity will result..and, for some, more despair will be voiced.

At this time of the year, or phase of the moon, it may be more or less intense. I fully expect the community, such as it is, will go on with or without cries of despair some years from now.

In my opinion, this site is too big to fail - unless the owners decide to end it. I would like to see them follow up with some of the tweaks they once mentioned, but even without them, I plan to stay the duration.

This place is very small, in fact.

I respond to unpopular folks sometimes, but not on subjects I've argued with them about before over years, unless I'm particularly fed up; I've limited patience, where others can argue the same thing infinitely, growing healthy bodies twelve ways from doing so (that's a riff on an old commercial).

I'm not a good debater; it was my upbringing not to sass and I learned that arguing was not a sin relatively late as these things go (that bit about arguing was via my schooling and my mother, not so much my father who was around less and had majored in philosophy). I like reading good debate though, part of why I have been here all this time, even now.

I do have some on ignore, rest periods for myself, but I review that and bring people back some part of the time. I've also been known to myself to change my mind from reading other views than my own here, and sometimes tell that straight out when I recognize my change. Usually the change will happen subtlely so I can't pinpoint when that happened.

Given the rancor, this pretty much leaves food and random other matters as pleasant subjects, which people talk about here less. I still love the joke/play/nature threads.

On thumbing, I thumb up, maybe too much. I thumb up for somebody putting in effort to show information/photography/humor, sometimes. I thumb up for things I agree with when well written. Sometimes I thumb up for things I disagree with that are well written. I'm no saint so the latter is used less.

I thumb down as a housecleaning measure for New Post Threads, as opposed to posts. I skim almost all pages of new posts fast, and clear those I will not go back to for curiosity, ever. I leave those where I don't want to hurt the feelings of the posters, new language learners, for example.

On posts within threads, I'll thumb down for awful behavior... not disagreement in itself. I'm also not a saint in this - I have a tendency to be meaner to someone who is, say, repeatedly racist than people I know who are generally reasonable but just pissed off. Usually though, I quickly enough put racists in the ignore village.
I'll thumb down when someone gives execrable advice to an apparent thirteen year old. I guess I'd count that as disagreement, but more a kind of abuse.

On Olivier5, I always listen. His views are often similar to mine and when not, I can see the reasoning. I don't want you to leave.

On whether the world is going to hell without a basket, yes.

I still remember the chaos at Abuzz. And despite that, most stayed there .. until moving here.

And there had been quite a few similar situations here during the last 13 years as well. I consider the momentary situation to be just another silly season.

Phoenix, a wonderful woman still posting just today, used to decry a quiet a2k off and on for years. She was always right, it was quiet, but it would pick up again.

There has been a growing meany segment, even with good debaters, but maybe that's self defense. Read any newspaper/website comments lately? People are more self expressive with the relatively new internet freedoms.

Sure. It cycles. I pace myself on here by migrating in and out of many threads, and being steadfast in some that are of personal importance. I trust that if I am not in tune with other members, it's just a phase and will work out in time.

Maybe what happened at Abuzz impacted on me more than was appropriate.

I was devastated at the fall of that site...and of the (as you put it) chaos some people brought to the place. I've come to realize, however, that even if everyone participating there had acted the lady and gentleman...it was going to fail. Newspapers, like everything else, need profit centers...and IT WAS NOT A PROFIT CENTER.

Abuzz was my first adventure into the Internet...and obviously my first taste of Internet forums. I had been arguing some of my positions in letters to the editor and op ed pieces for many years before that...but the "Internet forum" was like a piece of Heaven for me.

I sulked and lamented the fall of Abuzz for a while, but eventually came over to A2K.

I hope this site lasts...I hope new people come into the forum. (Many have lately...and this may be a good thing.) I still think interesting and informative conversations take place...and I am able to understand and tolerate, even participate in, the pettiness that seems to be unavoidable in these forums.

As for A2K...

...HOO RAHHH.

Hi Osso. I'll probably end up just posting less here, and more elsewhere... You'll be the only one to notice. :-)