A Dialogue on the infamous “N” word

@argome321,

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In essence I thought we were discussing the effect or lack there of by using or not using the word nigger. Since I view it as mechanism of abuse I look at the psychological ramification... short term and long term

.

OK, yeah, and we've talked about that in different contexts, too. In an abstract context, for one, and in a relative context (how and why one person might see the word differently than another).

You say things like "mechanism of abuse" as though it were simply a mechanical cause and effect, like a cue ball hitting the eight ball, and the 8 then going into the corner pocket. Unlike you, I don't think it works that way.

You talk about "psychological ramification... short term and long term," again, as seemingly some inherent and inevitable phenomenon. Here again, I disagree.

The first post I made included a video. The first guy interviewed was an older black guy who was approached by a white guy who was throwing around the word "nigga." The black guy just laughed, and later said "it doesn't bother me at all." How is that possible? How could a black guy take that attitude?

Have you ever eaten something (say a pizza) then later got sick and heaved it up? I have. When I was younger, I wouldn't be able to eat pizza for weeks, even months after that. The very thought/sight of pizza made me sick. If I saw some guy eating a pizza I wondered how in the HELL could he possibly eat that nasty ****. Any ideas on how that was possible (for him, I mean)?

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I'v been explaining my position and reasons for being against using the word nigger so Cavalier because of the long term psychological and physical damage still in existence today and in the future.

Well, the future holds whatever it holds. I don't claim to know that. But, again, you seem to be putting the damage in the word itself--a position that I don't agree with.

1 Reply

@argome321,

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forced into slavery,

Dont plead the poor black man with me....150 years is more than enough to get over slavery. There have been far more white slaves than blacks. You dont hear me pleading the slave victim excuse do you ?

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hundreds of year of being dehumanized,

never heard of the white folk in factories during the Industrial revolution, huh ?

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hundreds of years of being ostracized,

You cant be ostracised if there is a group. Ostracised is expulsion from the group for an individual.

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hundreds of years of being sold

Never heard of bonded labour ? Thats how a lot of white folk got to the New World.

You really need to study more about white history before you claim all those things only happened to blacks. Poor white women were raped by the local Lord, people were whipped, tortured for confessions, the list goes on. Rich black people need to understand how bad it is to be white. Razz

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Perhaps you need to get a clue

Perhaps you need the poor nigger story to make you feel better about you and other blacks failing.

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Do you really think.....that type of physical and psychological damage can be undone in less than 100 years

When do you think unions corrected the horrors of the industrial revolution ?

1 Reply

@Ionus,

you need to read Black history. OOps, that right, most of it was excluded from American history.

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Dont plead the poor black man with me....150 years is more than enough to get over slavery. There have been far more white slaves than blacks. You dont hear me pleading the slave victim excuse do you ?
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Even you can't be as dumb as the statement you made

Have you ever been a victim of racism? I have.

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Never heard of bonded labour ? Thats how a lot of white folk got to the New World.

I guess you're being sarcastic.
Whether you are or not it is impossible to take you seriously.

But you do prove my point , thanks

1 Reply

@layman,

Quote:

Well, the future holds whatever it holds. I don't claim to know that. But, again, you seem to be putting the damage in the word itself--a position that I don't agree with.

I respect that

http://www.brookings.edu/research/articles/1998/03/spring-poverty-loury

http://atlantablackstar.com/2013/09/30/ways-slavery-still-affects-black-people/5/

http://atlantablackstar.com/2013/09/30/ways-slavery-still-affects-black-people/6/

https://msrose318.wordpress.com/2011/07/07/the-effects-of-slavery-within-the-african-american-community/

http://pzacad.pitzer.edu/~hfairchi/pdf/FairchildArticles/AfricanAmericanPsychEncy.pdf

http://counsellingresource.com/lib/therapy/self-help/stockholm/

http://feminspire.com/to-slut-or-not-to-slut-should-we-call-ourselves-the-s-word/

http://www.blackstarnews.com/education/education/black-empowerment-rejecting-the-word-nigger-and-embracing-our

http://www.hiphoptalks.com/nwordnigger.html
https://blackonomy1.wordpress.com/2008/08/05/should-i-use-the-word-nigger/

I have listed here the sites of a few articles that to some degree represent my position.
My conclusion, a personal one, because I can only speak for myself, is that it is self deluding for one to believe that if you coop a word that was offensive and believe that you are turning that word around to empower you, to control that offensive word, whether that word is nigger, slut or queer. In fact I believe if one feels the need to empower one’s self with that negative word then from the onset you were lacking self esteem. For in all these cases it is the abused who thinks that he or she is turning the tables on the abuser.

I think there isn't any more that I can add to the discussion so from this point I'm done. Unless there is something new I've gone as far as I can,

It's been informative.
P.S. by the way I love pizza. I can eat it everyday. Smile

1 Reply

@argome321,

Quote:

you need to read Black history. OOps, that right, most of it was excluded from American history.

There's my answer right there . You know so little of real history because you know me so well . Only a certain amount of storage for data. right ? I know American History better than the average American . Incidentally, I am not American .

Yes, I have been the victim of racism . So have my children .

You seem to know very little history, but just enough to plead how tough life is for the poor black man . Read more with less preconceptions .

1 Reply

@Ionus,

You're just plain ignorant or extremely foolish or both.

They have Black history courses in America. But if you knew America you would have known this. There's also black history Month in the USA, These courses were created to compensate that which was left out of main stream books.

I was being nice when I said you were being sarcastic, but it is evident you don't have a single noteworthy thing to add to this post.
It's more than apparent that your comments are totally generated from your ignorance of American history and American culture.

1 Reply

@argome321,

Tell me what was wrong with the history I taught you a couple of posts back .

1 Reply

@Ionus,

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Tell me what was wrong with the history I taught you a couple of posts back .

Please, go troll somewhere else

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@argome321,

As you seem to have lost interest, I will stop with one parting thought on the slavery that you suffered so badly from (I sincerely hope the chain scars fade with time)...black men hunted other black people in Africa to sell to a black state so they could sell them to white people on ships . When did that black state appeal to the Queen of England not to stop the slave trade ? Your homework is to investigate this and fill in names and places .

1 Reply

@Ionus,

Quote:

As you seem to have lost interest, I will stop with one parting thought on the slavery that you suffered so badly from (I sincerely hope the chain scars fade with time)...black men hunted other black people in Africa to sell to a black state so they could sell them to white people on ships . When did that black state appeal to the Queen of England not to stop the slave trade ? Your homework is to investigate this and fill in names and places .

Still trolling I see. Your problems is that you are in love with your ignorance.

I do have one question for you. How does one bask in their own ignorance so proudly?

1 Reply

@argome321,

Quote:

Still trolling I see. Your problems is that you are in love with your ignorance.

I do have one question for you. How does one bask in their own ignorance so proudly?

I will let others determine the truth of that . You seem a little biased . Avagudnite . Wink

1 Reply

@Ionus,

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I will let others determine the truth of that . You seem a little biased .

Against trolls? Yes

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@argome321,

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I have listed here the sites of a few articles that to some degree represent my position... My conclusion, a personal one

Fair enough, Arg. I hope you know I wasn't trying to suggest that the goal you are seeking is somehow "wrong." I was just disagreeing with what I thought your basis was.

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...it is self deluding for one to believe that if you coop a word that was offensive and believe that you are turning that word around to empower you, to control that offensive word,...

As I stated before, I think it was done with the word "black" (as used to describe African-americans). You never really responded to that. Maybe you disagree, I don't know.

I'm looking at one of the articles you posted, written by a 24 year-old black man. His case may (or may not be) typical. He says (among many other things, of course):

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[Jesse Jackson] he was asked about his use of the word Nigger. And that got me thinking: “Should I continue to use the word ‘Nigger’?” I understand how the word is used in today’s society, but for all intents and purposes, it’s all one word, with definitions that are as numerous as the number of different people you ask to give you the meaning of the word.

That said, my own personal definition of the word comes from an understanding of the word in its culture. I’m a 24-year old black man, and I hear that word everyday of my life....I myself have used the word, and I haven’t necessarily banned it from my vocabulary just yet. But I’m undecided as to whether or not I will continue to use it.

The word “Nigger” has bad roots. Everyone knows that...[But] overall oppression begin to reach the comparatively minimal levels at which we sit at today...Seriously, for us to get mad when white people use the word “Nigger,” is preposterous. Now if they use it to clearly disparage us, that is one thing....But if they are clearly trying to use the word in the same manner in which they hear black people use the word...then how can we fault them?

He goes on to decide he won't use the word anymore, for reasons I didn't paste here (hypocrisy, for one, because he doesn't like whites saying it).

It's definitely a debatable topic among blacks. Most whites act as if there simply can be no debate. Most see the word is per se "racist."

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Speaking as a white man...rather than having blacks speak for us...

...most white people I know DO NOT see the word as per se "racist."

Damn near every white I know sees it as racist when used in a particular context...and as anything but racist when used in other contexts. And on those occasions when we hear it used in a context that tells us it is being used in a racist way...we are damn near always correct.

(I might point out that whites hearing the word used that way probably happens more frequently these days than blacks hearing it used that way...something that ought to be considered here!)

I do not personally know a single white person I suspect would call Richard Pryor's use of the word...racist. Nor would they consider the use of the word as racist if used the way Moms Mabley used it.

They would consider it a racist term used the way George Wallace, Ross Barnett, Bull Connor...or any of a number of other people using it with the intention of being racist while using it.

They might or might not give a pass to Paula Deen. I wouldn't. Nor would I give a pass to the many people with southern accents to use "nigra." And I wouldn't to the few people I know who use the world up here in the north the way some do.

Any suggestion that most white see the word as per se racist...is a stretch.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

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Any suggestion that most white see the word as per se racist...is a stretch.

Well, it should be a "stretch," but my experience has been that if a white even "utters" that word, whatever the circumstances, then he should immediately lose his job, etc., according to white "liberals," at least. Hence the movement to ban "Huck Finn" from schools, etc.

But, sure, Frank, you're right, as a literal matter. That said, I have my doubts about this claim:

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And on those occasions when we hear it used in a context that tells us it is being used in a racist way...we are damn near always correct.

For many, the mere use of the word "tells" them it being used in a racist way and don't EVER try to tell them they might not be "correct."

1 Reply

@layman,

layman wrote:

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Any suggestion that most white see the word as per se racist...is a stretch.

Well, it should be a "stretch," but my experience has been that if a white even "utters" that word, whatever the circumstances, then he should immediately lose his job, etc., according to white "liberals," at least. Hence the movement to ban "Huck Finn" from schools, etc.

But, sure, Frank, you're right, as a literal matter.

There are jerks everywhere, Layman, and "white America" is certainly no exception. There is no goddam way I want white America to be categorized by what some "white liberals" say...anymore than I would to want blacks to be categorized by what some "white conservatives" say. I absolutely do not want it for myself.

You shouldn't either.

Yes, there are "liberals" who want to ban Huckleberry Finn from schools...but there are also "liberals" who wanted to see Barack Obama defeated in 2012 because he did not move the country leftward enough during his first term. They simply have no sense of realism...or sense of nuance.

In short, Layman, there are liberals who are every bit as batshit crazy as the batshit crazies on the right side of the political spectrum.

They are NOT representative of white America as a whole. In fact, I would respectfully suggest they are not representative of white America in general.

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That said, I have my doubts about this claim:

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And on those occasions when we hear it used in a context that tells us it is being used in a racist way...we are damn near always correct.

For many, the mere use of the word "tells" them it being used in a racist way and don't EVER try to tell them they might not be "correct."

I do not disagree with you that there are some over-sensitive people on the left.

The thrust of what I say there holds for the mass who are not part of the batshit crazy group. However, in fairness to your point (which was a reasonable one), I will acknowledge it by amending my comment to read:

And on those occasions when we whites who are not batshit crazy...and searching wildly for something to become indignant about...when we hear it used in a context that tells us it is being used in a racist way...we are damn near always correct.

Even the most nuanced white person can tell when a fellow white, even one pretending to be kidding, is being racist with the use of that word.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

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and searching wildly for something to become indignant about...

Bingo, Frank. Now I'm getting into political commentary, but I don't even think that stereotypical liberal reaction has much to do with "racism" at all. It is part of a political agenda to convey one's group as being the "friend and protector of the downtrodden" (and don't forget to vote for us, come election time, eh?).

Many, probably most, of them are implicitly racist to an extreme degree, the way I see it. "Oh, the poor black man can't fend for himself...it's good thing that my superior self is here to help him." That kind of mentality, which often presupposes an ignorant, incompetent, and pathetic state of blacks.

I find it disgusting, actually.

And, of course, as you suggest with your "wildly searching" description, there is what can be an apolitical component of asserting "moral superiority." You can't demonstrate your superiority unless you can "find" something to get "indignant" about. So, let's find it, eh?

Equally disgusting.

2 Replies

@layman,

I agree with you that some of the most vociferous advocates of liberal causes...often show, inadvertently, racism that bothers me more than the racism of the haters. The patronizing attitude of the far left frosts my ass.

Frankly, I don't know how to deal with them. They can, as you suggested in an earlier post, be very adamant about patting themselves on the back.

Actually, in one of my other forums, Open Salon, I've discussed this on several occasions...taking huge issue with the very, very extreme liberals there. Mostly I objected to their economic lunacy (I often referred to them as the "loony left") ...but this area you are into right here is another one where I objected.

As I said early in this thread, we've still got a very long way to go in race relations...but I do not want to short-change the great strides we've made during my lifetime. There are changes that have been made that would have seemed like pipe dreams when I was still in school.

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@argome321,

Here are a few clips to look back on for enjoyment and for debate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjVhjMeiGzM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzsCob3JUsg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ5dOOoBydM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee3WQiqWhlw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqBlxhUlQYc

this is still very funny
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2b21yAeEpQ

1 Reply

@argome321,

Quote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjVhjMeiGzM

In this clip from CNN, Columbia professor Mark Hill says he thinks we are hurting ourselves as a country by "censoring" and "running away from" the word "nigger" and other racial "slurs."

The clip is very short, and is cut before he explains why he feels that way, but I agree.

Does anyone see this point? Only referring to it as the "N-word" (so bad that it cannot be uttered) and making it completely taboo only gives the word more, not less, power as I see it.

I am glad you started this thread, Arg, because some honest discussion came out of it. Even CNN, after its stern opening warning, still wouldn't say "nigger" or "cracker" out loud--they had them written on cards, just re-inforcing the (to me) silly notion that these words are so inherently bad that you can't use them when "discussing" them.

I think it was Voltaire who said: "I disagree with every word you've said, but I would defend your right to say them to the death." Whatever happened to that spirit? When did totalitarian style censorship take command? I'm not sure, but it's not a development that I welcome.

It would be an utter disaster to try to outlaw the KKK or Nazi parties in this country, in my opinion. Trying to dictate the content of other people's thought has far too many adverse side effects to ever justify what (little) it may accomplish.

2 Replies

A Dialogue on the infamous “N” word

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