3
   

A Dialogue on the infamous “N” word

 
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 Mar, 2015 11:51 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
But all agree on where blacks are now and were we want them to go, there is no difference in values.


Well, you're probably right there, Hawkeye, but I think you are using the term "values" in a difference sense than I am. To me, the "values" tend to be reflected more with the means chosen to attempt to achieve an end, not the end itself.

To use an analogy, but not a necessarily a plausible one, assume two people want to move and transport their belongings across town. They share that goal. But one of them was in a bad automobile accident and hence wants to avoid all vehicular travel. So their idea of the "best" way to move is to load things up in hand-operated wagons and walk them across town. The other guy wants to load up all the **** in a U-Haul truck and drive it across town. The desired end is the same, but personal values can strongly influence the chosen means.

Likewise, everyone, in a general, abstract sense, wants to have a "good life." They agree on that. But what constitutes a "good life" may generate a lot of disagreement, depending on what one values. Socrates is reputed to have said; "The unexamined life is not worth living." That's Socrates. Many people probably put very little value on that, and certainly do not consider their life to be "not worth living."
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2015 12:00 am
@layman,
and that is where you go wrong. A guy does not agree with you on what is the right tool for the job and you go making it all about values, and for damn sure you are going to conclude that his values are less good than yours, that he is less good than you. That is how we have gotten to the point were we cant talk to each other, and instead do 32 rounds of "YOU SUCK!". You could have avoided all that and instead argued with him on what is the right tool for the job, but you chose not to, you chose to drive the conversation into the ditch.

There was never any disagreement about values, and through force of will you have help to grind civilization to a halt because we cant converse, we never seek common ground, and we cant fix anything.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2015 12:05 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
There was never any disagreement about values, and through force of will you have help to grind civilization to a halt because we cant converse, we never seek common ground, and we cant fix anything.


You kind of lost me there. Not sure what you are trying to say, exactly. By the way, I added this to my last post while you were composing your response. I don't know if it would change your response any, but...

Quote:
Likewise, everyone, in a general, abstract sense, wants to have a "good life." They agree on that. But what constitutes a "good life" may generate a lot of disagreement, depending on what one values. Socrates is reputed to have said; "The unexamined life is not worth living." That's Socrates. Many people probably put very little value on that, and certainly do not consider their life to be "not worth living."
layman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2015 12:07 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
You could have avoided all that and instead argued with him on what is the right tool for the job, but you chose not to, you chose to drive the conversation into the ditch.


If you're talking about what I've said, I really have no idea how you come to that conclusion, but, whatever.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2015 12:08 am
@layman,
Quote:
You kind of lost me there. Not sure what you are trying to say, exactly. By the way, I added this to my last post while you were composing your response. I don't know if it would change your response any, but...

We need to stop making up excuses for concluding that everyone who does not agree with us is defective, thus we dont have to pay attention to them and we dont have to care about them . THIS is the cancer that is eating America more than any other, and it looks to me like you participate in it.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2015 12:14 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
We need to stop making up excuses for concluding that everyone who does not agree with us is defective, thus we dont have to pay attention to them and we dont have to care about them . THIS is the cancer that is eating America more than any other, and it looks to me like you participate in it.


Hmmm. Not sure why it would "look" that way to you, but, there again, everyone has their own perspective, values, and prejudices, I suppose.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2015 12:33 am
@layman,
You may have observed this yourself, Hawkeye: Many people who have a "pet peeve" also seem to have a tendency to see the thing that "peeves" them behind every bush.

Know what I'm sayin?
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2015 01:14 am
@layman,
Feel free to argue that I am wrong that the level of conversation in this society sucks, that the level of mutual understanding sucks, that there is a lot in unnecessary and unhelpful personal animosity, and that America is in general off the rails.

Try to keep your mind off of the personalities who are proposing ideas, and on the ideas.

Have you read the nigger thread I started?

http://able2know.org/topic/259008-1

What do you think of my 2 main ideas?

1) words can be repurposed and everyone gets to make their own choices on which words they use, so the fact that 50 years ago people decided that Nigger is a word that people should not use is irrelevant to any decisions I make on my use of the word.

2)there can be no such thing as words that some people are allowed to use but not others, the idea is offensive to our values of democracy, equality, the value of truth, the importance of conversation, and freedom. Therefor since the word nigger has been in such wide use over the last few decades by black people no one has any ground to stand on telling me that I cant use it. If blacks are offended then first let them stop using the word before they complain if I do. The black victim story does not give blacks the right to make this assault on my freedom claiming that I cant do what they do.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2015 01:29 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Have you read the nigger thread I started?

http://able2know.org/topic/259008-1

What do you think of my 2 main ideas?


No, I haven't read it, but I'll take a look. (By the way, have you read this one?) You and I seem to be in close agreement about your two "main ideas."
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2015 01:36 am
@layman,
I skimmed it. I understand the importance of history but it is not a big interest of mine, and I certainly dont much care to argue it. My interests in the word nigger revolve around by disdain for victim culture, by disdain for the elite, my certainty that truth matters and that conversation and the free combat of ideas is critical to discovering truth, and my zen socialism that revolves around everyone doing their share of the work...no excuses, to include stories of victimhood.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2015 05:52 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

I'm sure you've heard the old adage:

"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."


Yeah I have, Layman. You'd be amazed, perhaps disappointed, at what some of the people I've heard it from have also said within my hearing.

Anyway...for some people:

Give him a razor…and instead of trying to shave himself, he will hold it to his throat and ask someone to steady his hand while he slices.

And there are always people willing to steady a hand doing the work they want done.

0 Replies
 
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2015 06:03 am
@argome321,
1)Before I retired I worked my last three years of employment as a security guard for a catholic church... the Irony being I'm an non-believer. Well, every morning they would feed people, handing out sandwiches and coffee no questions asked. ones's background didn't matter.

My jobs was to keep people in line and to keep some semblance of order so that others didn't jump the line a head of other, to help prevent disturbances.

For the most part there was seldom any trouble. I got to know a few, talked with them. Many were homeless, as expected, down on their look, some do to bad decision making in their lives.

But for the most part many, for mental reasons, are unable to manage their lives. Many receive SSI government subsidies. There are State and local agencies to help them. That sounds good. But here's' the problem, It can't work when people who have mental problems and because of their mental instabilities cannot make sane and rational judgements about their lives. Their decision making faculties are out of whack so in a sense they are victims.

2) There has to be more then just coincident that people who are abused adopt the negative word, the word that was meant to insult them by the abuser, believe that reverse of that slur,the turning of that word as if to say this word can't harm me I own it... I think one deludes themselves. They are victims also. There is more than ample example of this. Queer, Nigger, slut etc. There is a psychological component where few of us seem not to mention or refuse to discuss. . Those who foolishly believe they have power and those who believe, just as foolishly, that they are void of it. ..the sadistic-masochist paradigm. It is most common and manifested in domestic violence. It is nothing other then a form of abuse.

How can we begin to talk about equality and correcting this problem of racism when we are still mired in our own ****?

How can we move forward when refuse to see others because our heads are buried deep up our own ass?

How can we move forward when ideology and bureaucracy,individual or collective, are more important life?

Where is the concern for how we treat each other and the respect that goes with it?

Is there no effort on our part to see others?

I don't ague the victim card to use as an excuse. I do not argue this point to use as a crutch, that in and of itself would be crippling and not helpful. I do not argue this point for handouts. I argue the victim card as to bring light and awareness to it and hope people recognize that there is psychological damage cased by abuse that needs to be addressed and must be tended to if there is to be a solution to the race problem.

I think that there is a psychological element that needs to recognized. And until it is I doubt a solution ca be found.

A society with a racist psychological is a sick society. The words, whether they be Queer, Nigger or slut are just one of many ways that this sickness is manifested.

What sane individual or society would destroy, degrade, dehumanize another individual or group for short term gains, that might benefit him or her or society in some way and manner in the long run if their potential is allowed to grow?

What is gained by misguided hate that consume you and destroys all around you including doing ill reparable harm to yourself...etc?

What is this need for power? this drive to achieve power? Obtaining power is an illusion? Absolute power doesn't corrupt because it doesn't exist. The lack of power is what corrupts. This idea that empowering a slur, turning it around and owning is false.

There is an adage I read somewhere. It says if you own a dog and feed and take care of that dog the dog will think you are a god. I f you own a cat and feed and take care of that cat the cat will think that it is a god.

If there is a solution it will come when our state of mind is healed.













hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Mar, 2015 10:18 pm
@argome321,
Really good post

A lot I dont agree with but you make an argument and make it well.

Which we know because it was ignored.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2015 05:31 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Really good post

A lot I dont agree with but you make an argument and make it well.

Which we know because it was ignored.


Interesting, Hawk.

Just wanted to be sure this comment of yours was not ignored.
0 Replies
 
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2015 05:59 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Feel free to argue that I am wrong that the level of conversation in this society sucks, that the level of mutual understanding sucks, that there is a lot in unnecessary and unhelpful personal animosity, and that America is in general off the rails.

Try to keep your mind off of the personalities who are proposing ideas, and on the ideas.

Have you read the nigger thread I started?

http://able2know.org/topic/259008-1

What do you think of my 2 main ideas?

1) words can be repurposed and everyone gets to make their own choices on which words they use, so the fact that 50 years ago people decided that Nigger is a word that people should not use is irrelevant to any decisions I make on my use of the word.

2)there can be no such thing as words that some people are allowed to use but not others, the idea is offensive to our values of democracy, equality, the value of truth, the importance of conversation, and freedom. Therefor since the word nigger has been in such wide use over the last few decades by black people no one has any ground to stand on telling me that I cant use it. If blacks are offended then first let them stop using the word before they complain if I do. The black victim story does not give blacks the right to make this assault on my freedom claiming that I cant do what they do.



Ideologically I agree almost 100% with you. But I have found from my personal experiences that my reality rarely coincides with ideology...they're constantly at clash.

Sometimes I think our actions, our choices are compromises, choosing what one may consider the lesser of evils...or at our best attempt to be morally correct, limited by our abilities or inabilities to see other choices. In other words we work with what resources we have.
0 Replies
 
 

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