Clintonista Gangsterism

McGentrix wrote:

Huh. I believe you are the first individual I have run accross on the Internet that supports Milosevic.

Really - serious? Lucky you.

We have our share of Milosevic apologists here in Europe - in "old Europe", especially (practically none in Holland, plenty in Germany). 90% of them are on the far left, the hard left - people who consider him, if not an actual hero of anti-American, anti-NATO resistance, at least a victim of American, NATO aggression.

But you know, you learn to live with it and ignore it. And its kind of predictable - hard line communists have defended every thug who happened to be on the opposite side from America.

What really boggled my mind was to find that theres a vibrant scene of Milosevic apologists on the US right. Thats why I'm surprised (no offence) that you never came across any of them. They're not just on freerepublic, as swolf him/herself helpfully pointed out, they're on the National Review too - at least, thats where I rememer first coming upon the trend.

Whole scene of people whose distrust of everything Muslim and - overridingly - hate of Clinton have brought them to see the "Christian" nation of Serbs as the innocent victims of Clinton's unjust, wag-the-dog war, not to mention of the liberal global media's conspiracy to make the evil muslim Kosovars into would-be "victims". Something along those lines.

Oddly enough, those American conservatives will then (by necessity, for lack of more obvious allies) end up quoting those hard-left Eurpean sources as purported evidence, like swolf does here too.

Like I said, the whole scene brought home, for me, the moral bankruptcy one's anti-Clintonist obsession can ultimately take you to - has in fact taken a part of the American right to.

I mean, I dont mind revisions with the benefit of hindsight. Such as how we know, now, that - aside from the question of whether one was attempted or not - no "genocide" of Kosovars was halfway realised in 1998/99; the number of deaths eventually turned out to "only" be some 7,000 - 10,000. (Of course, on the same scorecard, one needs to debunk the American "war crimes" against Serbia over the course of the Kosovo war, by pointing out that even a black book prepared by the Milosevic government itself could not present more than some 800 deaths, hardly a lot for several months of bombings).

But revisions aside, to altogether deny the decade-long repression, ethnic cleansings and deportations the Kosovars suffered at the hand of the Serbian army and paramilitaries - not to mention the bloody fate of so many Bosnian Muslims and the Croats of Vukovar, Osijek - to make the case for an innocent, victim nation of Serbs - it defies all logic, not to mention the brave, dissident Serb voices that MOU mentioned some of (B92, Sonja Biserko).

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nimh wrote:

But revisions aside, to altogether deny the decade-long repression, ethnic cleansings and deportations the Kosovars suffered at the hand of the Serbian army and paramilitaries...

Try educating yourself; this might do for starters:

http://members.tripod.com/~sarant_2/ksm.html

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damn, now I am sorry I never voted for that demmunist Clinton.

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swolf wrote:

Try educating yourself; this might do for starters:

http://members.tripod.com/~sarant_2/ksm.html

None of those are about the nineties, the decade of repression and increasing paramilitary terror I'm talking about. The decade in which the Kosovars reacted mainly by an, in our time, unparalleled strategy of nonviolent resistance, Ibrahim Rugova at the helm.

Perhaps they shouldnt have. For all those years war raged in Croatia and Bosnia, people were warning about what was brewing in Kosovo, but as long as there was no large-scale violent conflict there, the international community didnt put the province high on its priority list. Only when finally a violent (and thuggish) Kosovar guerrilla army, the UCK, started making headway and state repression escalated into violent battle, did the West start to pay serious attention ... we do know how to let exemplary behaviour go unrewarded.

As for the 80s, you know that for every list of carefully selected news items that portray the Kosovars in a bad light, you can find another one that highlighted the discrimination they then already faced ... it was a complicated situation. At least it was until the Milosevic-era state terror introduced a distinctly clearer contrast between relative good and bad.

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dyslexia wrote:

damn, now I am sorry I never voted for that demmunist Clinton.

There're two kinds of communists in this world, i.e. people like Milosevic or Gorbachev who grew up in a world in which everybody (left alive) was a communist and you had to be a commie in order to aspire to certain professions, and then people like Slick or the gigolo (Kerry) who're basically just looking for a way to feel different and superior to their neighbors and opt for communism because they can't picture turning gay. The one I could feel sorry for, the other I can't.

Albanian Kosovars are a bunch of barbarians who nobody in this world who knows anything feels sorry for. There were about a half dozen realworld reasons why anybody might have wanted to do Kosovo, and those included, in no particular order:

The mineral wealth of the Trepca mines.
The fact of Yugoslvia representing a salient in an otherwise solid block of NATO territory.
The threat of Albanian population spillover destabilizing one or more NATO countries without their having Kosovo.
Albanian money flowing into the campaign coffers of American politicians, both parties unfortunately...
The fact of Milosevic, who started off in life as a banker, having seen the damage the IMF was doing to surrounding countries and having pulled Serbia out of the IMF in 94. In other words, the bankers who run the NWO view Milosevic as one of their own gone bad.
The question of pipeline rights through Albanian territory; Albanians demanded Kosovo as their price for that.

That last item might actually have made sense were it not for the fact that American oil companies actually preferred an alternate Russian plan for a pipeline which did not require Albanian input.

Now, all of that together did not add up to a case for going to war and the pentagon recommended against it, nonetheless the most major concern at the time was the two major items which were being seen on the headlines of American newspapers, i.e. Chinagate, which amounted to outright treason, and the Juanita Broaddrick rape allegation which most people who heard it found totally credible. These final considerations are the ones which counted.

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nimh wrote:

swolf wrote:
Try educating yourself; this might do for starters:

http://members.tripod.com/~sarant_2/ksm.html

None of those are about the nineties, the decade of repression and increasing paramilitary terror I'm talking about....

You're basically talking about Serbs trying to repress Kosovars by outlawing their entire culture I assume, i.e. by outlawing rape, murder, arson, blood fueds, drug dealing, and terrorism, and then trying to protect themselves from terrorist activities at a level which would have provoked Americans to major reprisals under the same circumstances.

I mean, nobody goes from being oppressers to being victims in a year or two, that's ludicrous.

Again, here's the situation in as described in a NY Times article in 1987

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/ddj/Kosovo/articles/Binder87NYT.htm

Read it, and come back and tell me who the oppressers were.

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The following is Slobodan Milosevic's speech delivered in Kosovo in 1989. I simply cannot see anything resembling racism, ill will, or evil intentions in it.
I would invite the world to read through it, and then tell me wherein lies the racism or genocidal tendencies:

http://emperors-clothes.com/milo/milosaid.html

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swolf wrote:

There're two kinds of communists in this world, i.e. people like Milosevic or Gorbachev [..] and then people like Slick or the gigolo (Kerry)

So do you have, like, any evidence here that Kerry is a "Communist"? Or is that just what you call every liberal?

swolf wrote:

There were about a half dozen realworld reasons why anybody might have wanted to do Kosovo, and those included, in no particular order:

*The mineral wealth of the Trepca mines.

And how is the US now profiting from this wealth?

swolf wrote:

*The fact of Yugoslvia representing a salient in an otherwise solid block of NATO territory.

In 1999? Are you kidding? What solid block of NATO territory in Kosovo's environs? Only NATO countries at the time that were anywhere near were Greece and, across the sea, Italy ... not a single country except for Greece in South Eastern Europe belonged to NATO at the time.

swolf wrote:

*The threat of Albanian population spillover destabilizing one or more NATO countries without their having Kosovo.

Which countries would that be? You mean the US went to war over the threat of illegal immigration to Greece?

swolf wrote:

*Albanian money flowing into the campaign coffers of American politicians, both parties unfortunately...

Ah, the powerful, wealthy American-Albanian lobby ... lest we forget. Surely on a par with, say, the Israel lobby. How many Albanian-Americans contributed how much exactly, compared to what how many Serbian-Americans contributed? And how do these numbers compare with the actual cost of war?

swolf wrote:

*The question of pipeline rights through Albanian territory; Albanians demanded Kosovo as their price for that.[/list]

That last item might actually have made sense were it not for the fact that American oil companies actually preferred an alternate Russian plan for a pipeline which did not require Albanian input.

Glad you debunked that one yourself already.

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I DID mention the fact that those rationales together did not add up to much of a case. Again, the most major reason for Kosovo was Juanita Broaddrick.

BTW, how is Holland's own ethnic cleansing campaign coming along?

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2004/2/17502340-DA4E-4379-9982-AED6C77B315D.html

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swolf wrote:

BTW, how is Holland's own ethnic cleansing campaign coming along?

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2004/2/17502340-DA4E-4379-9982-AED6C77B315D.html

That article leads to one about failed asylum-seekers.

You certainly wanted to link to something else, re "ethnic cleansing", I suppose.

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come on people, everything Swolf said is pure obsession and lunacy. He can't even find decent link except "srpska mreza" (where you will not find average Serb surfing, not to mention others), TRIPOD PAGES (that's best part) and links about documentary movies of unknown serbian authors (because documentaries and movies of known and professional serbian authors have nothing to do with it).

Once again, its a person that:

1. Writes enormously large posts under "Music&Lyrics" as response to a TAG!

2. Considers paying ads as newspaper article

3. Considers one asylum-seekers problem as ethnic cleansing.

4. By his/her own words stopping Islam women on the streets, offering them guns to kill their husbands (while I might be against TOS in some responses to this criminal joke of person, I am pretty sure that this is not legaly allowed even in such a free country as USA is as Swolf wants to brag about)

5. Thinks that Yugoslavia was surrounded by NATO countries (while only NATO neighbour of Serbs was Albania, Italy does not border Serbia).

6. Actually does not know that Serbo-Croat and Serbo-Bosniak wars were fought ONLY on croatian and bosnian territory, with Croats and Bosnians (and Slovenes as well, but their war luckily lasted only a week or so) never firing single shot on a serbian territory.

7. In one of our previous debates, he/she more or less said that people of Srebrenica deserved what happened to them - after first claming that nothing actually happened (for those that don't know - 7,000 Muslim was slaughtered by serbian troops there).

8. VERY IMPORTANT - is so blind that facts like Serbs trialing their own soldiers, reports by brave and actually heroic serbian journalists from Croatia, and, finally, fact that serbian war leader in Croatia admited guilt and requested apology from Croats in front of all world media does not mean anything to him/her.

9. In any of debates about Islam you can find numerous bigoted and nazi remarks about Islam and Muslims made by Swolf. Not disagreeing hard, not maybe harsh comments that someone would consider as not really okay - no, pure bigoted NAZISM.

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nimh - I am not saying that you are not right, but I really never felt there is big number of people in Germany that try to defend Milosevic. Truth is that some western communists are biggest communists in the world (you know, like, bigger Catholic then Pope), but only person that anyone in the world heard of that I heard defending Milosevic was Peter Handke - and he has "beautiful" history of defending notorius criminals and dictators.

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I'm wondering about your opinion re Germany and the 'support' here there for Milosevic as well, nimh:

Germany has traditionally been anti-Serb and anti-Milosevic in particular: it was the first country to recognize an independent Croatia before the Bosnian war.

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MyOwnUsername wrote:

nimh - [...], but only person that anyone in the world heard of that I heard defending Milosevic was Peter Handke - and he has "beautiful" history of defending notorius criminals and dictators.

It wasn't only Peter Handke (and he is Austrian, btw):

Quote:

From: Vladimir Krsljanin
Subject: [news] Artists' Appeal for Milosevic
Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 08:09:08 -0700

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
***************************************************
Artists' Appeal for Milosevic
***************************************************

For over two years now, Slobodan Milosevic has been on trial before the
International Criminal Tribunal for former Yugoslavia - a Security Council
institution of dubious legality - charged with 66 counts of war crimes,
crimes against humanity and genocide. Over 500,000 pages of documents and
5000 videocassettes have been filed as evidence by the Prosecution. There
have been some 300 trial days. More than 300 witnesses have testified. The
trial transcript is near 33,000 pages. Yet after all this time and effort,
the Prosecution has failed to present significant or compelling evidence of
any criminal act or intention of President Milosevic.

In fact, it has been revealed that some prosecution witnesses have been
coerced to lie under oath, others have committed perjury. Former NATO
commander Wesley Clark, was allowed, in violation of the principle of an
open trial, to give testimony in private, with Washington able to apply for
removal of any parts of his evidence from the public record they deemed to
be against US interests.

President Milosevic was indicted during the 78 day continuous bombardment of
Yugoslavia by US-led NATO forces, which used cluster bombs and depleted
uranium, attempted to assassinate Milosevic by bombing his residence, killed
thousands of civilians and caused billions of dollars of damage to the
country's infrastructure. This illegal act of undeclared war is in clear
violation of the NATO Charter, the UN Charter, and International Law. Yet
neither Wesley Clark, nor the leaders of NATO countries have been indicted
for the crimes of which Slobodan Milosevic is accused.

The proceedings of the ICTY against Slobodan Milosevic, as a large and
growing number of international jurists has publicly stated, respect neither
the principles nor even the appearance of justice. According to Ramsey
Clark, the former Attorney-General of the United States, "the spectacle of
this huge onslaught by an enormous prosecution support team with vast
resources pitted against a single man, defending himself, cut off from all
effective assistance, his supporters under attack everywhere and his health
slipping away from the constant strain, portrays the essence of unfairness,
of persecution". And now that presiding judge Richard May has resigned his
position for unspecified health reasons, it appears inevitable, the issue
prejudged, that the trial will nevertheless continue, in spite of the
virtual impossibility that a new judge will be able to come to grips with
the mountain of evidence presented so far.

If justice is not just, if prosecution is persecution, if international law
is flaunted in order to "enforce international law", we are indeed now
living in the dystopian world of George Orwell's 1984. The neighborhood
bully has decided the world is his back yard. The implications of this
egregious use of "power politics" go beyond the unjust trial of Slobodan
Milosevic: the "new world order" now being implemented is simply inhuman and
intolerable. What can be done to change this cruel and criminal state of
affairs?

Let us remember that it was not long ago that 15 million people marched on
the same day in a gesture of international solidarity to say no to the Bush
junta's illegal war on Iraq. Now is the time for another such gesture. For
if this trial continues, the only triumphs will be those of travesty over
justice, power over principle, disinformation over truth. And many feel that
the sum total of these acts constitutes state terrorism perpetrated on a
virtually defenseless country and its legally elected president.

As artists, our work is to broaden our horizons, to become more human and to
share that humanity. And to create. Destruction is intolerable to us. It is
intolerable that courts be used to justify the killing of civilians, the
destruction of a sovereign nation, and the demonization and imprisonment of
that nation's leader. Let us now create a massive demonstration of our
humanity. Now is the time to make ourselves heard loud and clear, once
again, by publicly denouncing this injustice. We urge you to join your
efforts to those of the International Committee for the Defense of Slobodan
Milosevic.

Robert Dickson, poet (winner of the Governor General's award for French
poetry 2002), Canada
Harold Pinter, playwright, UK
Peter Handke, writer, Austria/France
Alexander Zinoviev, writer, philosopher, Russian Federation
Valeri Ganichev, writer (President of the Writers' Union of Russia), Russian
Federation
Vyacheslav Klykov, sculptor (President of the International Fund for
Slavonic Literacy and Culture), Russian Federation
Dimitri Analis, poet, Greece/France
Valentin Rasputin, novelist, Russian Federation
Fulvio Grimaldi, filmmaker, journalist, Italy
Vladimir Kostrov, poet (winner of Tyutchev and Bunin awards), Russian
Federation
Nadja Tesich, novelist, Yugoslavia/US
Milos Raickovich, composer, Yugoslavia/US
Mick Collins, screenwriter, US/France
John Steppling, screenwriter, playwright, US/Poland
John Goodrich, playwright, US

March-April 2004
Montreal-New York-Moscow-Paris

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MyOwnUsername wrote:

ehBeth, please show me that there are normal people on that planet (unlike me) and stop even refering to this joke of a person.
But, thanks for sharing - not only that Joke uses only cheapest propaganda sites, but also making up things.
Well, nothing strange for person SO INCREDIBLY OBSESSED that he/she wrote enormously big post under "Music&Lyrics" in response to edgarblythe's TAG!

I noticed that as well, but you probably know that, given the response I posted. Laughing

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Bill W, see how much misinformation there was about ole Stand? Firat he wasnt in the UNion, he was a Confederate Cherokee.
Ive had this running post "exchange" with Setanta about the significance of the TransMississippi confederacy in its place in history. I just brought it up when I started reading thhese weird posts

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When I saw the original post, I knew this thread was destined to go down in flames...

Its fun watching the process, though Smile

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MyOwnUsername wrote:

4. By his/her own words stopping Islam women on the streets, offering them guns to kill their husbands (while I might be against TOS in some responses to this criminal joke of person, I am pretty sure that this is not legaly allowed even in such a free country as USA is as Swolf wants to brag about)

Your attempts at demonization aren't really worth responding to for the most part, nonetheless this little accusation goes a bit beyond mere lifting things from context. I once mentioned having once told a woman wearing a burka that, if she was interested, I knew a place where she could buy a pistol to shoot the sorry SOB who was making her wear the thing, which is perfectly legal since the only thing being provided anywhere in the picture is information, and there's a really big difference between that and offering a gun to somebody.

I mean, honesty doesn't seem to be part of your little schtick any more than it is part of the practice of whatever organization you represent.

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ok bye

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

swolf wrote:

BTW, how is Holland's own ethnic cleansing campaign coming along?

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2004/2/17502340-DA4E-4379-9982-AED6C77B315D.html

That article leads to one about failed asylum-seekers.

You certainly wanted to link to something else, re "ethnic cleansing", I suppose.

The title of the article:

The Netherlands: Dutch Parliament Passes Strong Measure On Expulsion Of Immigrants

which is the basic idea and, if you read much about Holland's recent experiences with muslim immigrants, you get the drift pretty quickly. They're not talking abour heaving immigrants from China, Russia, England, or Poland. They're talking about reducing the population of muslims in Holland to a manageable level.

Other than that, the majority of Albanian Kosovars as recently as 1999 could as easily have been categorized as "failed assylum seekers", "illegal immigrants", or whatever you want to call them. There's no really meaningful difference.

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Clintonista Gangsterism

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