8
   

So, Any thoughts on Bibi Netantahu's address to Congress

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2015 11:49 pm
@InfraBlue,
I dont think anyone who did not support Apartheid can support what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. Also increasingly in my opinion we who do not object to Israel are almost exactly like the Americans who did not object to the Nazi treatment of the Jews post Nuremberg Laws of 1935.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2015 12:08 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
The thrust of this thread shows that Netanyahu's predictions are rarely accurate.

Because you produced one example of him being wrong?

I don't entirely agree with Mr. Netanyahu, but he is completely correct when he says that it would be a disaster if we let Iran develop nuclear weapons.

On balance, I think Mr. Obama is right to pursue these negotiations, but Mr. Netanyahu is not being unreasonable.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2015 12:09 am
@Chumly,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:
I don't want any more tax dollars sent to Israel until there is a genuinely free and independent Palestine.

Good grief. Rolling Eyes

If the US were ever ignorant enough to cut off aid to Israel to punish them for the fact that the Palestinians refuse to make peace, Israel would simply compensate for their weakened position by being more proactive about destroying nearby threats.


Chumly wrote:
You are delusional if you believe that will ever happen,

Well, that depends. The Palestinians are well on track to creating a state composed of a bunch of isolated Bantustans. All we have to do is slap the label "free and independent" on a couple Bantustans and we're good to go. Cool Laughing
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2015 12:10 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
I dont think anyone who did not support Apartheid can support what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.

I didn't support Apartheid, and I support what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.

Note that the only thing that Israel is doing to the Palestinians is: preventing the Palestinians from murdering innocent Israelis.


hawkeye10 wrote:
Also increasingly in my opinion we who do not object to Israel are almost exactly like the Americans who did not object to the Nazi treatment of the Jews post Nuremberg Laws of 1935.

Israel is not doing anything objectionable (unless it is objectionable for a Jew to defend himself when someone tries to murder him).

Israel is certainly not doing anything like the Nazis did. Let's leave the Blood Libel in the dustbin of history where it belongs.
hawkeye10
 
  4  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2015 01:04 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Israel is not doing anything objectionable
Confining people to mostly God Forsaken lands, fencing them in and strictly rationing everything to include water and then bombing the smithereens out of them when they object and act out is....wait for it.....objectionable.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2015 01:41 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Confining people to mostly God Forsaken lands, fencing them in

The Palestinians are not being confined. They are being kept out of Israel. It is perfectly normal for states to control their own borders.

Israel's control over their borders is even more understandable when taking into account the fact that whenever Palestinians manage to enter Israel, they run around murdering innocent people.

The only reason Palestinian lands are "god forsaken" is because the only thing the Palestinians ever do with their land is use it as a platform for attempts to murder innocent Israelis.


hawkeye10 wrote:
and strictly rationing everything to include water

There is no such rationing. The only thing that is prevented from entering Palestinian areas is militarily useful material. Israel blocks their access to militarily useful materials because the Palestinians use such materials to murder innocent Israelis.

Israel has the right to do this according to international law.


hawkeye10 wrote:
and then bombing the smithereens out of them when they object

It is Orwellian to refer to Palestinian murders of innocent people as a form of objection.

It is even more Orwellian when taking into account the fact that the Palestinians have no cause for objecting to anything. The Palestinians do not have a "right" to murder people, no matter how much they like doing it, so they have no legitimate complaint that Israel blocks most of their murder attempts. And any complaints over their conditions are equally invalid, as the only reason the Palestinians suffer such conditions is because they refuse to ever make peace.


hawkeye10 wrote:
is....wait for it.....objectionable.

The essence of Blood Libel is making horrendous false accusations against Jews, and then objecting to Jews for what they have just been falsely accused of.
korkamann
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2015 01:49 am
@glitterbag,
Quote:

NSA, CIA and DIA were all created by an Executive Order sign by Harry Truman in 1952 or 1953.


Absolutely! The president has the authority to issue an executive order. This opposition to what President Obama did can be characterized as an act of pure unadulterated venomous malicious spite, pure and simple! As far as the right-wing Republicans are concerned, this current president is overstepping his bounds and should not take or use any of the advantages previous presidents have exercised. They don't like it that Obama is acting presidential and executing all the rights of a president. The Boehner ilk is so frustrated that they decided to humiliate the president, take him down a peg by inviting the lying, overly ambitious, narcissistic Bibi Netanyahu to speak before the US congress. The Israeli leader let it be known he cared for Mitt Romney and were disappointed that Obama won; he knew full well the bitterness that existed between President Obama and the Republican party and so he took advantage of this vulnerability to use the Congress applauding him over and over so he could use the footage in his reelection ad campaign.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2015 02:23 am
@oralloy,
This is advertised as a vast improvement over previous policies which make it nearly impossible to rebuild what Israel destroys.

Quote:
The report lists the known components of the agreement as follows.

Firstly, the security arrangements will closely resemble the ones agreed (but never implemented) after the November 2012 operation “Pillar of Cloud”, with the notable addition of the expansion of the fishing zone to six nautical miles.

Secondly, construction materials will be pre-ordered through Israel, where Israeli teams of engineers will have to approve exact quantities of materials for each specific project. The materials will be ferried in to Israeli-authorised international organizations, who will store them in special facilities under 24-hour CCTV supervision, with footage accessible to Israel.

The reconstruction sites will then be monitored by Israeli drones, to make sure no materials are used for any other purpose and that each bit of materiel is accounted for.

Private homes will be rebuilt by private but also Israeli-vetted Gaza contractors, who will manage the construction materials through special software accessible also to Israel, and whose works will also be monitored by drones.


http://www.ecfr.eu/article/gaza_reconstruction_the_new_israeli_strategy

re water

Quote:
Israel plans to doubt the amount of water it sells to the Gaza Strip to help relieve the water crisis there and ease the burden on the overtaxed coastal aquifer. It is the latest in a series of gestures Israel has made recently to the Palestinians there and in the West Bank.

In an interview to the Jerusalem- based daily Al-Quds on Wednesday, Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories Maj.-Gen. Yoav Mordechai announced that Gaza would receive 10 million cubic meters of water a year instead of the current 5 million. The additional quantity is expected to begin flowing within the next week, a COGAT spokeswoman told The Jerusalem Post.

Most of Gaza’s water now comes from the coastal aquifer. However, the 1.8 million Palestinians there are drawing it out faster than it can be replenished. As a result, seawater from the Mediterranean is seeping in, creating a saline level beyond World Health Organization guidelines for safe drinking water, according to a report last year by the NGO EcoPeace: Friends of the Earth Middle East.

A second report by B’Tselem last year found that 90 percent of the water in the Gaza Strip was “unfit for drinking.” The European Union estimates that as much as 95% cannot be consumed by humans.


http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Israel-helps-relieve-water-crisis-in-Gaza-Strip-by-doubling-supply-392976

How nice, but it will be turned off faster than Russia turns off the gas supply headed West if the Jews are not happy with Palestinian behavior, water has been used as a club till now, and it will be again.
NSFW (view)
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2015 03:19 am
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

I didn't know that.
Geez Louise.


It's not something they like to advertise
ossobuco wrote:

Lest there are questions, I don't hate Israel and can understand their fears. I'm long over my early broad support, for multiple and obvious reasons, especially re the present government there.


The rabid supporters of Israel only understand hate, they cannot feel positive emotions so they naturally assume nobody else can. Oralboy is a prime example, he wants to exterminate all Arabs, Russians, Italians and Britons so he assumes others are like him. The Israeli human rights organisation B'Tselem does sterling work, and Haaretz is a fine newspaper. Unfortunately since the influx of Russian immigrants from the late 80s the right wing nationalist, racist element has become more dominant. Netanyahu does not want peace, he wants to keep creating facts on the ground by building more illegal settlements on occupied land so that a Palestinian state becomes completely unviable, and reduce its people to a permanent slave class.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2015 03:29 am
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:

I don't like Netanyahu, because he is an inflexible leader and I think he was out of line in France inviting European Jews to Israel during a show of unity.


He was not wanted in France, and his purpose was to divide and spread fear. Unfortunately Islamist terrorists see the Jewish diaspora as an extension of Israel regardless of whether they actually support Israel's policies, (a lot don't.) That's why they're targeted, his comments were deliberately chosen to undermine Western governments efforts to protect the diaspora and frighten the diaspora into unconditional support of Israel. Getting them to emigrate to Israel suits his expansionist, militaristic agenda. He's already eyeing up parts of Syria, and I wouldn't be remotely surprised if Mossad was helping ISIS. Casting all Arabs as fanatical Islamists is very much in his interest, and he wants to marginalise/isolate the vast majority of moderates.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  4  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2015 06:36 am

The Netanyahu Confessional
By Walter Rhett, on March 4th, 2015

DDNetanyahu’s “shrift rift” turned into a confessional with all the hallmarks of dirty politics. First, no one accepts an invitation from a “family” member unless he or she is certain the head of the house approves. Certainly, a national leader does not accept an offer to speak that bypasses the equivalent office he or she holds, when to do so undermines and embarrasses the very relationship on which your security and progress is built. Would it be a “family” issue if President Obama thought it important enough to bypass Netanyahu and take his case directly to the Knesset?

Every dirty political move denies its errors and intent; Netanyahu is doing the same. Every dirty move claims it is demanded by a higher calling: safety, security, liberty, survival are righteous claims. The details of truth that lay in the balance are overlooked because of the attention given to the dirty move—which is being carefully denied! Hence the cycle: it’s denied in order to deflect from the details of truth that disprove its claims.

Finally, the point of political dirt is disruption—and this Boehner/Netanyahu dust-up with Obama is as nasty as it gets—bypassing a head of state to address a national legislature is a collusion never witnessed in US history. (Not Britain, France, China, Russia, or any of the world’s 190+ nations have had the opportunity and disdain and disregard to do so!)

John Boehner is willing to risk our national security while embracing a war hawk who wants the US to be his pocketbook and national proxy; in Israel, some call him the Republican senator from Jerusalem, or is that Netanyahu?
Israeli bombing in Gaza, 2014.

Israeli bombing in Gaza, 2014.

Finally,the speech. In the South, we speak of “woulda, coulda, shoulda,” speech that engages in hot air and fantasy and traces lines of fear but in the end has no substance and leads to the same dead ends. It was sad to see the Prime Minister’s speech use the powerful images of threat, the history of his country and its survival and the “sturm und drang” of war for more “woulda, coulda, shoulda.”

So much of the controversy around this historic opportunity was old news. Old slights, grown uglier and menacing to US statecraft. Defiant anger coolly aimed toward Obama. Old warnings of nuclear threats on a horizon in a warmonger’s looking glass that skipped a myriad of details—including who is going to fight, or what happens next—or even what happens now?

Search English editions of Israel’s newspapers (haaretz.com, the JPost) and read what Boehner and he never admit: the spin machine is going full-bore, trumpeting Netanyahu’s popularity in the US as being at an all-time high, claiming the political tensions, inside and out of the US and Israel, are being exaggerated, touting his standing ovation by Republicans who had refused to fund their own national security in order to politically punish our President. Sheldon Adelson’s free daily newspaper Israel Hayom expanded its printing to a record press run.

Yet other news outlets ere pointing out that 188 generals and officials (including a former head of Mossad) thought his speech was self-serving and did not serve Israel well. And more than 3,000 ultra-orthodox Jews protested in New York City over Netanyahu’s claim that he speaks as an emissary for all Jews. Acknowledging him as a head of state, they opposed his covenant claim of speaking for Jews. Many carried signs saying, “We don’t need a bibi-sitter.”

One Israeli writer summed up his observations: Netanyahu “delivered the goods for Republicans, and left behind embittered Democrats, a fuming White House, and no change in Iran.”

For sure, his speech changed no minds. It makes diplomacy more difficult in that it offered no solutions or new proposals. For a great many supporters of Israel, it created a wedge. Low purposes are always couched in the language of noble causes; denial conflates its motives by mixing and concealing its true intent.

Today, answering his critics, the Prime Minister is claiming he did offer an alternative. The alternative: that a non-nuclear treaty with Iran should be conditioned not on resolving the issue of constructing nuclear weapons, but on Iran’s promise of ending its threats toward Israel.

The news site Haaretz had this to say:

All are ignoring the real existential threat to Israel and its ability to survive as a “Jewish and democratic state”: the unending occupation of the territories. Israel’s insistence on ruling over millions of Palestinians in the West Bank who lack civil rights, expanding the settlements and keeping residents of the Gaza Strip under siege is the danger that threatens its future.

So the question is: what’s the takeaway? Besides more “woulda, coulda, shoulda”?

The world is a complicated, complex place and war is a dirty business. But it is easy to figure out by those with a single thought: blame Obama. Now add Iran.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2015 06:41 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
I still can say "Netanyahu sucks" without being anti Semite.


Expecially because he does in fact, suck!
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2015 06:44 am
@hawkeye10,
So civility includes putting literally putting words in someone's mouth, eh Spartacus?
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2015 07:02 am
Benjamin Netanyahu's speech

PRI's The World

March 03, 2015 · 5:00 PM EST
Editor Aaron Schachter (follow)


http://pri-113a.kxcdn.com/sites/default/files/styles/story_main/public/story/images/RTR4RX3S.jpg?itok=5qO0Q-c8

A demonstrator holds a sign during a rally near the Israeli Consulate in New York to protest Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's speech in front on Congress.
Credit:

Shannon Stapleton/Reuters

If you put five Jews in a room, the old joke goes, you get six opinions. So it's no shock that Benjamin Netanyahu's speech to Congress has strongly divided opinions among Jews living in the United States.
Player utilities



Listen to the Story.

"There is a division," says Alan Lowenthal, a Democratic congressman from California. "I think that it's unfortunate that all of us who were one time on the same page were forced to make choices."

More than 50 Democratic members of Congress, including six Jews, skipped Netanyahu's speech on Tuesday. Lowenthal says he wrestled with the decision and decided to attend, but he's angry that the speech has pitted Democrat against Republican, Jew against Jew.

"The support for Israel, historically, has been a bipartisan effort," he says. "I think that two weeks before the Israeli elections ... it's an inappropriate time to both influence the United States Congress, and for the United States Congress to be involved in an election in Israel. I think that's totally inappropriate."

Many liberal American Jews agree with Lowenthal. "We published an ad in the New York Times that was signed by 2650 people. It says, 'No, Mr. Netanyahu, you do not represent American Jews,'" says Rabbi Michael Lerner, editor of Tikkun Magazine, a progressive Jewish quarterly.

Lerner is not a fan of Netanyahu in the best of times, and hasn't been for decades. But he says his criticism has mostly been about Netanyahu's policies, not his behavior. This time, though, he says Netanyahu has gone too far.

"He has elicited the fear amongst Jews that Israel is going to be seen — and Jews are going to be seen — as arrogant and actually fulfilling the worst anti-Semitic stereotypes of who Jews are," Lerner says.

Netanyahu also faced some criticism from American Jews — like Abe Foxman, the head of the Anti-Defamation League, and Dov Zakheim, a Pentagon official under two Republican presidents — who normally remain close to Israel's positions in public.

Of course, there's another opinion. Mitchell Bard, who runs the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise, says he was against the speech, finding it too provocative. But he does "think we'll see that it will pass over, as most of these past disagreements have, going back to ... 1947 when the Secretary of State opposed the creation of the state of Israel."

Bard also thought the speech was a good one, one that laid out an alternative path that would increase protections for the Jewish state.

Netanyahu urged Congress not to let Iran keep any nuclear enrichment capability unless they agreed to more concession than they reportedly have. For starters, he said, stop threatening Israel and supporting groups that fire rockets into the Jewish state. Bard said that would be progress.

And most American Jews would likely agree those are reasonable goals — even if they were peeved by Netanyahu's chutzpah.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2015 02:23 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
This is advertised as a vast improvement over previous policies which make it nearly impossible to rebuild what Israel destroys.

Quote:
The report lists the known components of the agreement as follows.

Firstly, the security arrangements will closely resemble the ones agreed (but never implemented) after the November 2012 operation “Pillar of Cloud”, with the notable addition of the expansion of the fishing zone to six nautical miles.

Secondly, construction materials will be pre-ordered through Israel, where Israeli teams of engineers will have to approve exact quantities of materials for each specific project. The materials will be ferried in to Israeli-authorised international organizations, who will store them in special facilities under 24-hour CCTV supervision, with footage accessible to Israel.

The reconstruction sites will then be monitored by Israeli drones, to make sure no materials are used for any other purpose and that each bit of materiel is accounted for.

Private homes will be rebuilt by private but also Israeli-vetted Gaza contractors, who will manage the construction materials through special software accessible also to Israel, and whose works will also be monitored by drones.

http://www.ecfr.eu/article/gaza_reconstruction_the_new_israeli_strategy

That is more a tightening of policies back to what they were before 2010.

Back in 2010 the Europeans subjected Israel to endless whining, and Israel was foolish enough to relent and change their policies to allow construction material in without restriction.

For their trouble, Israel got all those kidnap tunnels that were discovered during the last war.

It is good to see that Israel is tightening the blockade back up.



hawkeye10 wrote:
re water

Quote:
Israel plans to doubt the amount of water it sells to the Gaza Strip to help relieve the water crisis there and ease the burden on the overtaxed coastal aquifer. It is the latest in a series of gestures Israel has made recently to the Palestinians there and in the West Bank.

In an interview to the Jerusalem- based daily Al-Quds on Wednesday, Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories Maj.-Gen. Yoav Mordechai announced that Gaza would receive 10 million cubic meters of water a year instead of the current 5 million. The additional quantity is expected to begin flowing within the next week, a COGAT spokeswoman told The Jerusalem Post.

Most of Gaza’s water now comes from the coastal aquifer. However, the 1.8 million Palestinians there are drawing it out faster than it can be replenished. As a result, seawater from the Mediterranean is seeping in, creating a saline level beyond World Health Organization guidelines for safe drinking water, according to a report last year by the NGO EcoPeace: Friends of the Earth Middle East.

A second report by B’Tselem last year found that 90 percent of the water in the Gaza Strip was “unfit for drinking.” The European Union estimates that as much as 95% cannot be consumed by humans.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Israel-helps-relieve-water-crisis-in-Gaza-Strip-by-doubling-supply-392976

How nice, but it will be turned off faster than Russia turns off the gas supply headed West if the Jews are not happy with Palestinian behavior,

There is no reason to think that. During the last war, the Palestinians only lost their electrical power when the Palestinians destroyed the electrical lines themselves.

However, let's be clear about "if the Jews are not happy with Palestinian behavior". We're talking about Palestinians murdering innocent people without provocation.



hawkeye10 wrote:
water has been used as a club till now,

What your article describes is the aquifer running out from overuse. That is a natural occurrence, not some evil plot by the Israeli government.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  3  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2015 10:03 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:


There were moderate Republicans getting ready to compromise on immigration as soon as they took power, and Mr. Obama rushed his executive orders to get them out before the new Congress was sworn in.


So these moderate Republicans were really children that decided to pout and not do anything because the big bad bully did it before they got around to it? That seems to be your argument oralloy. It isn't a very good one because it only shows that the Republicans don't act because it's the right thing to do. They only act out of spite.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2015 04:10 pm
@parados,
Quote:
It isn't a very good one because it only shows that the Republicans don't act because it's the right thing to do. They only act out of spite.

Congress has every right to make sure Iran knows that Obama is negotiating without their consent, and that the rumored framework of a deal will not be approved. I dont blame Congress at all, I blame Obama for yet again not doing the grunt work of selling his ideas to those who must under the Constitution approve the deals. This is a very predictable place when the president decides that he can become a one man government, when he is too proud and too lazy to do the job correctly.

The D's should not be expecting the public to punish the R's at all for this move.
NSFW (view)
NSFW (view)
 

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