25
   

1 in 5 women get raped?

 
 
nononono
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2015 06:25 pm
@firefly,
I'm going to use the exact same kind of logic you've used when deciding that Bill Cosby is for sure guilty here...

Cosby has for the most part refused to comment on the sexual abuse allegations right? And because he's been unwilling to comment, you and other feminists like you have decided that's an indicator of his guilt.

Well, unless you clarify your position, there is no other conclusion to draw besides that you support harsher sentencing for men for the exact same crimes that women commit.

Except unlike Cosby, you've actually already commented. And we have ACTUAL evidence that you support women ONLY special privileges in the criminal justice system.

So either speak up and concede, or own your bigotry firefly.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2015 07:00 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

I want the laws regarding crimes of violence and sexual assault/rape upheld and enforced.

Men commit more crimes of all sorts--arson, burglary, serial murders, mass shootings etc.--than women do. That's not a put-down of men, it's simply a fact.

At least one third of all female homicide victims in the U.S. are killed by male intimate partners -- husbands and ex-husbands, boyfriends and estranged lovers--vs. 2.5% of men killed by intimate partners.

I do not see criminal matters as related to "men's rights and women's rights" --crimes pertain to acts that violate laws.

And, if you're such an egalitarian, stop complaining, almost exclusively, about men being victimized by women.


I am an egalitarian. I share your desire to see the laws regarding sexual violence enforced fairly.

There are many ways that society is unfair to women. I will list a few.

- Women earn less then men for the same work. This should be fixed.
- Rape is too common and committed most often by men.
- Men are more likely to injure women during incidents of domestic violence, and this happens too often.
- Men kill their spouses twice as often as women do.

So for you to say that I am one-sided is simply wrong. Now, for the sake of fairness, can you admit any of the ways that society is unfair to men?

You can be in favor of both women's rights and men's rights.
nononono
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2015 07:19 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
- Women earn less then men for the same work. This should be fixed.
- Rape is too common and committed most often by men.
- Men are more likely to injure women during incidents of domestic violence, and this happens too often.
- Men kill their spouses twice as often as women do.


Ug, this gives me a headache. The way you've phrased most of this is severely misleading, if not bordering on flat out false. But one thing is for sure flat out false Max.

Quote:
- Women earn less then men for the same work. This should be fixed.


PAID and EARNED mean two different things Max. The supposed "wage gap" has been debunked so many times that it's cartoonish when people keep bringing it up. No one is holding women back from working more difficult jobs and/or working longer hours besides THEMSELVES.





Quote:
...can you admit any of the ways that society is unfair to men?


Hell would have to freeze over.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2015 08:03 pm
@maxdancona,
I don't wish to engage in discussions about alleged "rights" or "fairness" on the basis of gender--they're your issues and not mine, and we don't even conceptualize them the same way.

I don't think my current society is "unfair" toward women--and I'd hardly put things as serious as rapes and murders of women in a list of "unfair" things.

"Unfair" smacks of whining, and score-keeping, and blaming the other gender, none of which reflects the way I think.

So no, I'm not about to get involved in this sort of gender-based adversarial discussion just because you want to.

But nononono is obviously more than willing to do so, and he's starved for attention. You boys can argue it out among yourselves.


maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2015 09:06 pm
@firefly,
That's kind of funny Firefly. You are the one spending a lot of time interacting with Nonono. I am not. Just consider the number of words you have written to respond to Nonono and the time you have spent focused on him.

You are involved in a gender-based adversarial discussion. If you didn't want to be in one, you would stop engaging in one.

I am getting a lot of flack (including from you) for saying that men and women should be treated equally. Yet, I will continue saying that.

It is possible to support both men's rights and woman's rights.

firefly
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2015 09:53 pm
@maxdancona,
So, how should society go about changing the attitudes of 14 and 15 year old boys, who think it's fun to try to attempt to anally rape a 17 year old male special needs student with a broom stick? How do you think this sort of sadistic behavior develops? What's a fitting punishment for that crime?

Or the Vanderbilt University football players who were just convicted of raping and sexually abusing a totally incapacitated female student--who was urinated on as well. Why do you think she was urinated on? Why do you think they took photos of what they were doing to her? What attitudes does such behavior reflect?

Or do you just want to engage in lofty discussions about treating everyone equally and supporting everyone's "rights"?
nononono
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2015 10:06 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
smacks of whining, and score-keeping, and blaming the other gender, none of which reflects the way I think.


BUUUUUUUULLLLLLSSSSHHHHIIIITTTT!!!!!

I've never heard such a crock of **** in all my life! Literally ALL you ever do is score-keep firefly!

All you ever do is post articles and drone on and on about how much worse women have it and how horrible men are!

As you've seen in this thread alone, Max and myself are fully capable of acknowledging that women have issues. I've even gone as far as listing feminists who I admire. But you hate men so much that you can't even acknowledge that men have issues that are valid too. You hate men firefly.

And you're a pig-headed coward, because you know that my point about bias towards men in the judicial system is valid. You know that to answer my question you'd either have to concede that I'm right, or admit that you believe that women deserve special privileges under the law. In the case of the latter, it would prove you to be a bigot.

But that's Ok firefly. Go on, be cowardly. Everyone with a brain who has read this thread already knows where you stand. You believe that men and women should be held to different standards under the law. Standards that afford women special passes while levying heftier punishment on men.

You're hateful firefly. You're a bigot, and everyone can see it.
nononono
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2015 10:12 pm
@nononono,
nononono said:
Quote:
All you ever do is post articles and drone on and on about how much worse women have it and how horrible men are!


PROOF:


firefly said:
Quote:
So, how should society go about changing the attitudes of 14 and 15 year old boys, who think it's fun to try to attempt to anally rape a 17 year old male special needs student with a broom stick? How do you think this sort of sadistic behavior develops? What's a fitting punishment for that crime?

Or the Vanderbilt University football players who were just convicted of raping and sexually abusing a totally incapacitated female student--who was urinated on as well. Why do you think she was urinated on? Why do you think they took photos of what they were doing to her? What attitudes does such behavior reflect?
nononono
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2015 10:16 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Or the Vanderbilt University football players who were just convicted of raping and sexually abusing a totally incapacitated female student--who was urinated on as well. Why do you think she was urinated on? Why do you think they took photos of what they were doing to her? What attitudes does such behavior reflect?


What attitudes does such behavior reflect? Why, that all men are bastards of course. That's what you want to hear isn't it firefly?

As hawkeye would put it: "Men suck!"

As I would put it: "Men are baaaaaad."

Yes firefly, you've proven it. Gold star for you. All men are ******* bastards, and masculinity is to blame for all of society's ills. Women are morally superior OF COURSE.

Bravo.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2015 10:25 pm
@nononono,
Pissing is big in porn these days, I assume that it is now much more widely practiced than it used to be. It is not my thing though, I think it tends to run in the younger demographic.

Degradation porn is a huge problem for the feminists, it has become a pretty popular fetish. The problem for the feminists is that they want it outlawed, but the society is instead moving in the opposite direction.

Young women who have been brought up in an age where females are advantaged in school gravitate to submissiveness and degradation just as much as the male executives of old did....those who have power in real life like to explore through fantasy lack of power. The men used to visit a dominatrix, young women of today set up a Tumblr and social network to find the guys and gals who are willing to scratch their itch in real life.

Not the answer that the feminist firefly who still claims to believe that women are second class citizens long after that stopped being true wants to hear I am sure.
0 Replies
 
nononono
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2015 10:32 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
You are involved in a gender-based adversarial discussion. If you didn't want to be in one, you would stop engaging in one.


She's only involved in a "gender-based adversarial discussion" when it suits her whims and weak ideological arguments. When she's proven wrong, she hides like a craven coward.

Quote:
I am getting a lot of flack (including from you) for saying that men and women should be treated equally. Yet, I will continue saying that


I disagree with some of what you consider inequalities Max, but I agree that men & women should be treated equally. With equal responsibilities. Firefly does not believe that men & women should be treated equally.



0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2015 10:37 pm
@nononono,
Either you want to face, and deal with, the reality of sexual assault/rape, or you don't. Those two stories, both shocking, are currently in the news.

Sexual assault/rape isn't some abstract concept, or a statistical numbers game, these are real crimes, affecting real people.

And, Hawkeye, a completely incapacitated female is not gravitating toward domination and degradation or asking to be urinated on. But I will buy your explanation that a certain type of porn is influencing young men to do those sorts of things. I find it hard to believe that only feminists would disapprove of that type of porn, that degrades women, I wouldn't think most women would support it.
nononono
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2015 10:58 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Either you want to face, and deal with, the reality of sexual assault/rape, or you don't.


And how exactly would you like to "deal with" the reality of sexual assault firefly? What's your proposal? Would you like all men to be castrated at birth? Hmmm? What do you want? Because you only ever choose to focus on news stories about those horrible, big, bad, evil men. Or is there zero point to you bringing up stories like this other than just to point a finger of blame at men? Because you never offer any actual ideas about how to change things that are problems. You just blame.

And just like sexual assault; bias in the law is something that affects peoples lives as well. But unlike you, I've actually offered constructive discussion points to that problem, namely by pointing out that laws need to be changed. See, there's almost always a point to the things I bring up. I don't just trot out news stories to blanketly blame one group of people.

I'd like honest answers to both max and my questions.

The more you refuse to answer, the more you're proving that you indeed hate men. That you indeed deny that men have unique issues that are just as valid as women's issues. One of those issues being bias against men in the judicial system.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2015 11:11 pm
Quote:
Ex-Vanderbilt Football Player Says He's Sorry About Assault
Feb 9, 2015, 5:47 PM ET
By RYAN SMITH via Good Morning America

A former Vanderbilt University football player convicted of raping a fellow student with a teammate said he is sorry for his actions in a tearful interview with “Dr. Phil” McGraw.

Cory Batey was convicted along with Brandon Vandenburg Jan. 27 of aggravated rape and aggravated sexual battery in a dorm room attack, which prosecutors said Vandenburg recorded on a cellphone. Batey and Vandenberg could face decades in prison when they’re sentenced in March.

“I was drunk out of my mind,” Batey said in a clip from the exclusive interview from the Nashville Criminal Justice Center, which airs Monday. “I just couldn’t believe it was me.”

One of the toughest exchanges in the interview involves Batey’s testimony about the moment he says he realized something horrible happened the night of June 23, 2013. In court, Batey referred to the victim as “the young lady in the pictures” and attempted to apologize, but he used different language to describe her in a text message after the assault.

“Who did you make the statement, ‘They say I raped some b****?’ Who did you make that statement to?” McGraw asked.

“I don’t recall who that was,” Batey responded.

“It’s an interesting choice of words, ‘Some b****.’ Because you’re saying, ‘That’s not me. I – I watch myself on tape, that’s not me. That’s out of character,’” McGraw said.

“Yes, sir,” Batey said.

During the trial, Batey testified he was too drunk to remember the incident, claiming he blacked out after consuming between 14 and 22 drinks that night. He told the court he didn't realize what he had done until the next morning, after finding graphic photos on his phone as he was on his way to church.

Authorities say Batey and co-defendant Vandenburg, along with two other men, carried the victim – who is not being identified by ABC News – to a dorm room, where the unconscious student was assaulted. Two other ex-players accused of being involved in the incident, Brandon Banks and Jaborian McKenzie, also face charges of rape and sexual battery, but have not yet gone to trial. Banks and McKenzie have pleaded not guilty.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/vanderbilt-football-player-assault/story?id=28828490

0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2015 11:35 pm
Quote:
Former Vanderbilt football player, 21, sobs as he tells Dr Phil he wouldn't have gang-raped unconscious woman if his dad hadn't died and left him without strong male figure
By Lydia Warren
Dailymail.com
9 February 2015

Former Vanderbilt football player Cory Batey has said that he would not have raped an unconscious woman if his father hadn't died when he was young.

The 21-year-old convicted rapist told Dr Phil through tears that if his father had not passed away from cancer when he was nine, he would've had a strong male figure to put him on the right track.

'I would like to think I wouldn't be in this position if he was alive, honestly,' said Batey, who was one of 13 siblings.

'I just think a man needs his father at a certain point in life to mold him and discipline him and I think I missed out on that and I kind of had to choose my own direction.'

Shocked, Dr Phil asked him: 'Because he wasn't there, do you not know right from wrong?'

'Oh, I know right from wrong,' he responded.

Batey was found guilty of aggravated rape last month after assaulting the woman in a dorm with three other football players after a night of drinking in June 2013 - in an attack caught on camera.

As he awaits his sentencing - where he faces more than 140 years behind bars - he sat down for an exclusive interview with Dr Phil, which will air in full on Monday afternoon.

During the interview, he also became emotional as he spoke about his mother, Audrey 'Jeannie' Batey, who has worked at Vanderbilt for 37 years and who supported her son throughout his trial.

'I embarrassed her,' he said. 'I embarrassed her.'

When the jury was shown the graphic videos of him attacking the woman during the trial, he said he couldn't bring himself to look at his mother, who was in the courtroom.

'Because I knew that's not who she raised and I disappointed her more than anything,' he said.

Batey, who is one of 13 children, said that his mother has told him that she knows that he made a mistake and did something wrong but 'we'll be okay eventually'.

Throughout the interview, he said he was sorry for his actions but repeatedly claimed he was so drunk he could remember nothing of the attack - so he does not believe it is a good representation of who he is.

When asked by Dr Phil if he believes he should stay in prison for the rest of his life, which is a possibility when he is sentenced next month, he responded: 'I don't think I should.'

He added that he does not believe his fellow rapist Brandon Vandenburg, who brought the woman back to the dorm and encouraged the others to rape her, should not be locked up for life either.

'Honestly, I think he's a good kid,' he told Dr Phil. 'I think he just got caught up in some unfortunate circumstances.'

He added: 'I think everyone deserves to be forgiven and to be given a second chance. I don't think that was a clear representation of him. I know that's not a clear representation of me.'

When Dr Phil pressed him over the assault, in which he urinated over the woman and laughed as she was raped by the other men and sodomized by a plastic bottle, he said he had not been himself.

'I was drunk out of my mind so I don't think I was thinking,' he said. 'That's just not a clear representation of who I am.'

He went on: 'My whole life, I feel like I've always been a caring individual to look out for the helpless or the less fortunate... That just wasn't my heart. That just wasn't me.'

He added that he hopes his victim and her family can forgive him for his mistake.

When Dr Phil quizzed him about his victim, he said she hoped she could see past what he did to her.

'I wish she could really know the type of person I am,' he said. 'I hate that she had to see me in that light and think I’m that person, because I'm not. When I saw that stuff, I was just praying, I was just saying, "Lord just put it in her heart to forgive me, because that's not me. It’s just not me".

'I wished I could take it all back,' he added. 'I wish there’s a button that, that I could just delete everything, but unfortunately there’s not. And I’m sorry she’s had to go through this... I just hope [her family] can find it in their heart to just forgive me.'

Batey, who was dressed in an orange prison jumpsuit for the interview, was found guilty of aggravated rape and aggravated sexual battery.

He faces up to 60 years behind bars when he is sentenced alongside Vandenburg on March 6.

It took the jurors just three hours to convict the men.

After the verdict, three of the jurors spoke out and revealed that they made their decisions early on in the case after seeing cell phone footage of the attack.

'As soon as we saw the videos and photographic evidence... we knew exactly who was guilty of what and what we were going to come back with,' Todd Easter told ABC News. 'What we knew is that a terrible crime had occurred.'

Another juror, Dr. Deirde Young, said watching the footage - which showed Vandenburg egging on Batey and two other men as the woman lay unconscious - made her feel 'awful.'

'I asked myself, "how could they do this to that young lady?"' Young added.

'There can't be enough explanation to me. I don't know, I think they need to do some real soul searching. I've never experienced anything like these young men.'

In the trial, the victim had testified that Vandenburg, whom she was dating, plied her with alcohol one night in June 2013 and the next thing she remembers is waking up in a strange dorm room.

After dragging her to his dorm room, Vandenburg switched on porn and encouraged Batey and two others to assault the woman with a water bottle and rape her, prosecutors said.

The jury was shown graphic cell phone footage of part of the sexual attack, which the men had recorded. Vandenburg then sent some footage to friends.

One of the men, Brandon Banks, allegedly anally raped the woman with the water bottle as Vandenburg said, 'squeeze that s***', the video showed. Batey then allegedly urinated on her.

She woke up the next day in a friend's dorm room and felt sore but did not know she had been sexually assaulted until she saw the footage of the attack.

During the trial, Batey's attorney had argued that his client was not capable of making decisions because he had consumed so much alcohol. Batey drank as many as 22 drinks that night.

Vandenburg's attorney had argued that his client was not guilty of rape because he was physically unable to rape the girl after a night of drinking.

The victim was in the courtroom for the verdict, and began crying as the two men were declared guilty on all counts.

Two other men, Jaborian 'Tip' McKenzie and Brandon Banks, have also been charged in the incident but a trial date for their case has not yet been announced.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2946381/Former-Vanderbilt-football-player-21-sobs-says-wouldn-t-gang-raped-unconscious-woman-dad-hadn-t-died-left-without-strong-male-figure.html#ixzz3RJjUeGvV
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2015 11:39 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Former Vanderbilt football player, 21, sobs as he tells Dr Phil he wouldn't have gang-raped unconscious woman if his dad hadn't died and left him without strong male figure

American victim culture in action.


Well past time to haul victim culture to the dump.
nononono
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2015 11:43 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye, just ignore firefly.

She's doing what she always does, and posting never-ending articles intended to point out just how horrible men are instead of addressing Max and my points. Just leave her be with her cowardice.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2015 11:45 pm
@nononono,
Quote:
hawkeye, just ignore firefly.


Nope...she is a liar but she is smart. I enjoy debating with her. I am not at all sure that the feeling is reciprocal.

Much like with my daughter, pretty well radicalized by the very liberal U Washington at this point, but super smart with a fab vocabulary(daughter is religiously honest, and loves me).
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2015 06:53 am
@firefly,
Quote:
So, how should society go about changing the attitudes of 14 and 15 year old boys, who think it's fun to try to attempt to anally rape a 17 year old male special needs student with a broom stick?

...

Or do you just want to engage in lofty discussions about treating everyone equally and supporting everyone's "rights"?


Yes, Firefly, I want to engage in discussions about treating everyone equally and supporting everyone's rights. That is my point.

I have raised two sons (now adults) and a daughter. I absolutely insist that both boys and girls are treated equally. You can support both the rights of boys and the rights of girls (and if you are a parent of boys you must). I teach all of my kids to be decent, and confident.

You are taking a couple of examples of the most brutal acts that humans commit against humans. Humans are capable of horrible cruelty... and yes that includes both men and women. That doesn't mean that boys and girls shouldn't be treated equally.


You can support both men's rights and women's rights (or in this case boy's rights and girl's rights).
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2015 08:24 am
@hawkeye10,
I enjoy debating with Firefly too. That should be obvious given the amount of time Firefly and I have spent interacting with each other.
 

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