25
   

1 in 5 women get raped?

 
 
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 03:26 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
However, the way this works is that scientist affiliated with the university that pisses the feminists off is going to find their career under great threat, primarily though finding loss, and any scientist outside of the university orbit that pisses off the feminists can kiss away any chance of hitching up the the university gravy train in the future.

Do you actually know any university professors who do research? I do, and you have no idea how absurd your claims are. Those things just do not occur. Those things do not influence a professor's academic career.

Your paranoia about feminists knows no bounds--and it's quite disconnected from reality.

What on earth is "the university gravy train"? Professors teach for a living, and a university doesn't exist without them. They aren't on a "gravy train"--they receive a salary.

And. as far as false allegations go, you posted your last article, that cites the extremely small percentage of false allegations, then you say you don't know what those percentages are. Well, all current available reputable studies indicate that at least 98--92% of reported rape allegations are not false, which should give you a clue. And those small percentages do not justify disrupting all discussions of the crime of rape, with hysteria about the possibility of false allegations.

You really aren't making much sense, and dealing with your nonsense, and ignorance, is boring and not worth my time.
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 03:35 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Professors teach for a living, and a university doesn't exist without them. They aren't on a "gravy train"--they receive a salary.


The main reason to be at the university if you are a scientist is to be able to hook up with money to do science, and while they teach because they have too most make it very clear they have no interest in it.

The main reasons to be at the university if you are a feminist is to have a day job teaching so that you can put food on the table, and to use the platform to indoctrinate the young in the ways of feminist fantasy, to try to spread your political beliefs under the false flag of science, and too keep on eye on the real scientists and then to use the university apparatus to bully them into submission if they threaten to get get into areas that you dont want them to.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 03:39 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
and dealing with your nonsense, and ignorance, is boring and not worth my time.


So you have been saying for years, but you keep coming back because my arguments backed up with the evidence I bring to the table tends to be too compelling to be ignored.
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 03:48 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The main reason to be at the university if you are a scientist is to be able to hook up with money to do science, and while they teach because they have too most make it very clear they have no interest in it.

You definitely have never known any college professors. Laughing I've never known any whose primary interest isn't teaching. If anything, research and writing is what they are forced to do under the "publish or perish" mandate universities impose on them.
Quote:
The main reasons to be at the university if you are a feminist is to have a day job teaching so that you can put food on the table, and to use the platform to indoctrinate the young in the faminits fantasies, to try to spread your political beliefs under the false flag of science, and too keep on eye on the real scientists and then bully them into submission if they threaten to get get into areas that you dont want them to.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VvVfHHaDJmY/UXQyk5f5MzI/AAAAAAAAAU8/Yc31OcaTNLk/s1600/tinfoil-hat-2.jpg

Quote:
So you have been saying for years, but you keep coming back because my arguments backed up with the evidence I bring to the table tends to be too compelling to be ignored.

Don't flatter yourself. It's because your distortions, and inaccuracies, and misinformation, are too egregious to be ignored. I think you're a whack job. But, even correcting you, or trying to connect you to reality, gets boring after a while.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 03:58 pm
@hawkeye10,
Hawkeye it is no one interest who is in any position of power either in the government or academy or the media to disproved the feminist fantasies and their claims of having a rape culture of all things.

Strange with having reported rapes being at a thirty plus years low and having a rape culture/ rape crisis at the same time.

That the reason that the feminists worked so hard to destroy the FBI 70 years database ability to compare numbers going forward by changing what is including in it.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 04:05 pm
@hawkeye10,
I am not with you on this Hawkeye here. I side with Firefly on this tangent.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 04:18 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I am not with you on this Hawkeye here. I side with Firefly on this tangent.



Hopefully you also have to go with that opinion an alternative explanation for why science has not addressed such a important question, one that so much current social reform revolves around. How can we be having the feminists doing 30 years of changes on sex law and we dont even know how often women lie about sexual assault if the feminists had not prevented the question from being asked? this would normally if we were following a rational route be one of the top five questions we would want answered before we made changes. The feminists claimed in the seventies that 2% or less of the claims are not true, and that was that, nobody ever checked.

I await your theory.
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 04:32 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The feminists claimed in the seventies that 2% or less of the claims are not true, and that was that, nobody ever checked.

That's blatantly untrue. You're simply ignorant of decades of research since then. You're really embarrassing yourself by so openly admitting gross ignorance of the topic.

BTW, exactly which feminists or feminist groups allegedly made that 2% claim in the 70's? Can you cite them by name? None of your alleged "evidence" seems to pass the reality test. Until you actually cite names, I regard your pronouncements about "feminists" as largely delusional.
hawkeye10
 
  4  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 04:50 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
That's blatantly untrue. You're simply ignorant of decades of research since then

There has been very little, mostly what we have a lot of repeating of the 2% number, which was never checked out.

Quote:
You're really embarrassing yourself by so openly admitting gross ignorance of the topic.


You are going to fix Wiki, right? And come across the table with the names of the studies that you claim answered this question.

Of course you won't, because you are lying again.
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 04:56 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
One highly respected legal academic, elected by her peers as
president of the prestigious Association of American Law Schools,
recently reported that "the overwhelming consensus in ... research
relying on government data is that false reports account for only
about 2 percent of rape complaints." 9 It is indisputably true that,
largely through the efforts of legal dominance feminists, there now
exists a consensus among legal academics that only two percent of
rape complaints are false.' 0 This purportedly empirical statement is
ubiquitously repeated in legal literature. Dozens of law review
articles reiterate that no more than one in fifty rape complaints is
false." This empirical fact, however, is an ideological fabrication. 12

As far as can be ascertained, no study has ever been published
which sets forth an evidentiary basis for the "two percent false rape
complaint" thesis.
' 3 "Measuring false allegations is all the more difficult
since policies on unfounded criminal complaints differ from
one jurisdiction to another, resulting in very different numbers."' 14
The basic problem with accurately ascertaining the percentage
of wrongful accusations is that the overwhelming majority of rape
cases result in plea bargains, a "black box" in which there is neither
adversarial process, jury fact-finding, appellate review, nor even a
record for scholarly analysis. There are numerous reasons why both

innocent and guilty defendants accept plea bargains, including
avoiding the risks of going to trial.' 5 There is thus no firm evidence
that the plea bargaining process differentiates between innocence and
guilt any more accurately than trials. Whether by trial or by pleabargaining,
roughly half of accused rapists are convicted. 16 Even if
we assume arguendo that all those convicted are indeed guilty, and
that a full two-thirds of those acquitted at trial were also guilty, we
would still wind up with a situation in which one-sixth of those actually
tried are really innocent


http://digitalcommons.lmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2216&context=llr

The answer is that Brownmiller said it in 1975, bringing no proof with her, a whole lot of people repeated the number over the years claiming it was fact when clearly it was not, and no one checked to see what the truth was...FOR 40 ******* YEARS! Houston, we have a problem here.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 05:03 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The answer is that Brownmiller said it in 1975, bringing no proof with her, a whole lot of people repeated the number over the years claiming it was fact when clearly it was not, and no one checked to see what the truth was...FOR 40FUCKING YEARS! Houston, we have a problem here.


An the few smaller academy studies that had been done show a hell of a lot higher rate of false charges.

As you had said no large scale studies had been funded and is that not odd or not?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 05:11 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
An the few smaller academy studies that had been done show a hell of a lot higher rate of false charges.


I get that Bill, but they are not big enough or good enough to claim to know what the answer is. Every indication is that it is a hell of a lot higher than 2% though, and we need to find out.

The price of not finding out, acting like we know something that we dont, is likely to be a lot of men greatly harmed by false charges, and more embarrassing episodes like we just saw at University of Virginia/Rolling Stone.

Up to a point repeating the feminists unproven assertions was negligence on our part, but after this long and after we have so ratcheted up the use of state power against men it is worse....we have become a force of evil through our using force without any care for what the truth is about the guilt of the men we are using it on.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 05:18 pm
@hawkeye10,
Hawkeye I can not see large scale studies being allowed to be done or at least not funded as too many people in power have benefit far too greatly by promoting the rape crisis/rape culture nonsense.

Of course there are now a kickstarter type of site to directly fund scientific research so maybe some researchers will be brave enough to set up such a research program and funded it in that manner as no major university less alone the federal government will do so.
hawkeye10
 
  4  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 05:27 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Hawkeye I can not see large scale studies being allowed to be done or at least not funded as too many people in power have benefit far too greatly by promoting the rape crisis/rape culture nonsense.

Of course there are now a kickstarter type of site to directly fund scientific research so maybe some researchers will be brave enough to set up such a research program and funded it in that manner as not major university less alone the federal government will do so.


It has to happen. And it will happen, the american people are poorly educated and lazy but we are not at heart an unjust people. At some point soon we are going to have to notice what is being done to harass and abuse men, we are also going to notice how poorly young men are doing, notice how much pain they are in, and we will look for answers. At that point the feminists will get what they have coming to them. We trusted them, we believed them and they abused that trust.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 05:36 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The answer is that Brownmiller said it in 1975, bringing no proof with her, a whole lot of people repeated the number over the years claiming it was fact when clearly it was not, and no one checked to see what the truth was...FOR 40 ******* YEARS!

No, that isn't true either, but I admire that you made some attempt to fact check.
Brownmiller was not the one who came up with 2%, she simply repeated the figure that a judge mentioned in a speech he gave, and he seems to have gotten it from someone involved with sex crimes statistical gathering for the NYPD. So, it wasn't a percentage that a feminist originally came up with.

And studies have been done in the past 40 years--here's just a handful.
http://rack.0.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzEyLzA1LzU1L2ZhbHNlcmFwZWFsLjI3MTdjLnBuZwpwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/20e74905/aaf/false-rape-allegations-studies.png
So, I'd suggest that you drop your own false allegation that no one's fact checked for the past 40 years.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 05:43 pm
@firefly,
Typical feminist bullshit on the question:

Quote:
C o n c l u s i o n

Again, one of the most important challenges
for successfully investigating and prosecuting
cases of non-stranger sexual assault is the
idea that many—or even most—reports are
false. As long as this belief is accepted by law
enforcement professionals, prosecutors,
jurors, and others, our efforts to improve the
criminal justice response to sexual assault
will have only limited impact. Only those
cases that look like our societal stereotype
of “real rape” will be successfully investigated
and prosecuted.
To move beyond this issue of false reporting,
one of the most important steps we can take
is therefore to recognize that the “red flags”
that raise suspicion in the minds of most
people actually represent the typical dynamics
of sexual assault in the real world.
Once we accept this reality, we can begin to
move beyond this issue to more successfully
investigate and prosecute sexual assault
cases, especially those involving nonstrangers.

http://ndaa.org/pdf/the_voice_vol_3_no_1_2009.pdf

Summation: Dont care what the rate of false reporting is and neither should you,.......BASH MORE MEN!
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 06:29 pm
@hawkeye10,
No, it's more of your typical BS on the issue.

We already have a pretty good idea of the percentage of rape reports that turn out to be false--based on all those studies you've been unaware of for the past 40 years--and that percentage is rather low, and equivalent to false reports for other crimes.

And those low percentages, which have been consistently replicated in study after study, completely shatter your paranoid fantasy that the whole issue is some feminist attempt to "BASH MORE MEN".

What no research will, or can, tell you, is whether an accusation in any given case is false--that's why we rely on police investigations and forensic experts--and you seem unaware of how good these people are at ferreting out false allegations from even the low percentage of such claims made. And, since prosecutors only want to take winnable cases to trial, they won't generally move ahead with any complainant whose credibility appears at all shaky. Add to that, the fact that a common complaint from rape victims who do report such crimes, is that they don't feel their crimes are taken seriously, they don't feel they're being believed. So your allegation that the possibility of false accusations isn't sufficiently considered, by those investigating rape and sexual assault complaints, because the aim is to "BASH MORE MEN", is just part of your usual paranoia and delusional thinking about some murky vast man-hating feminist conspiracy--it just doesn't comport with reality.

The fact remains that crimes of rape are a reality--a criminal reality that must be addressed without the discussion becoming continually derailed by inflated hysteria and hype over "false allegations", or by assertions that rape statistics include a significant number of false claims. At least 90% of rape reports do not involve a false allegation. The issue, while important, needs to be kept in rational perspective.

Let's try to remember that the most often false allegation made is, "It was consensual...she wanted it."



firefly
 
  0  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 06:49 pm
I'm cross-posting this from another thread because I think it is just as important in this one.

It is worth noting that questions about the veracity of the Rolling Stone article about a gang rape at UVA, do not alter the comments about UVA made in this article--that school is under federal investigation for its handing of sexual assault cases quite apart from anything in the RS article.

Quote:
Widening Spotlight on Assault of Women
By JENNIFER STEINHAUER
DEC. 4, 2014

WASHINGTON — There is little to intersect the lives of a college freshman, a 59-year-old former model and a Marine Corps veteran of the Iraq war. Their targets — a prestigious state university, a long-beloved entertainer and the United States military — do not have much in common, either.

But in just the last week, the governing board of the University of Virginia has scrambled to answer allegations that it has mishandled sexual assault claims by women after Rolling Stone magazine published an account of a freshman who says she was raped at a fraternity party, and more than a dozen women, long in the shadows, have come forward with allegations that they were raped by the comedian and actor Bill Cosby. A new military study released Wednesday night demonstrated that reports of rapes and sexual assaults had increased 8 percent, and Congress reopened the debate over how to best address that problem — one that potentially threatens the life of a major defense bill and perhaps the confirmation of a new defense secretary.

While protests of the so-called rape culture on college campuses have surfaced before — Take Back the Night marches are decades old — the sudden convergence of exposure and outrage over these acts of sexual violence suggests a tolerance tipping point in American culture for a problem that institutions and victims alike have long hidden from view.

“I think we are at a critical moment,” said Eugene R. Fidell, an expert on military justice at Yale Law School. “The military is not on an island all to itself, and the debate in the country is over what is the medicine we need to take. The fact that there is something fundamentally wrong with the way our society treats women is a proposition on which there is now general agreement.”

What has changed are the willingness of women to come forward in ways that would have been unthinkable in the past and, as a result, the pressure on institutions to respond to issues that were once allowed to fester just out of sight.

“As women expect more equality,” said Michael S. Roth, the president of Wesleyan University, who banned some fraternity functions after two separate assault cases, “the prevalence of this archaic behavior becomes increasingly intolerable. You now find flash points where you can protest against that behavior on college campuses and in the military, and there will be others where women and others can get attention for their claims.”

What is still in question is whether awareness will lead to effective change in an emotionally charged landscape where the overall problems are clear, but the facts in individual cases can often be elusive.

For all the talk of “zero tolerance” on campuses, in the military and in the White House of sexual assault, extensive legislation on Capitol Hill has yet to move forward and President Obama has largely stayed out of the fray on the issue. The Obama administration has begun to put more pressure on universities and expose which ones are under investigation. But the federal government has yet to pull out its biggest gun: the ability to take away federal funding from universities that are found to violate student rights in sexual assault cases. Critics note that a two-decade-old federal law requiring colleges and universities to disclose information about crime on and around their campuses, including sexual offenses, is rarely enforced.

After the Rolling Stone article detailing a gang rape allegation and an emergency meeting of the board, the University of Virginia found itself under increasing scrutiny this week. Virginia lawmakers have called for hearings on the matter; the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges sent the university a letter asking officials to demonstrate they are in compliance with student safety standards; and more than 1,000 alumni have written emails about the incident.

On Tuesday, former President Jimmy Carter denounced Yale’s handling of an assault case and suggested the military was falling down on the job of adjudicating cases. The issues came together further Thursday when the secretary of the Navy, Ray Mabus, announced that the Navy would revoke Mr. Cosby’s title of honorary chief petty officer.

Almost every day, another woman emerges to detail rape or assault allegations against Mr. Cosby. This week in the Senate, lawmakers again presented different versions of bills that would address sexual assault in the military, potentially setting up a legislative conflict that may well hold up a defense bill.

One version, sponsored by Senator Claire McCaskill, Democrat of Missouri, which will be included in the broader defense bill, offers various changes to the system to give victims more rights and assistance. Another, which would be offered as a possible amendment and is sponsored by Senator Kirsten E. Gillibrand, Democrat of New York, would strip commanders of their role in prosecuting the cases.

There are several similarities in the challenges faced by colleges and the military, where the adjudication of sexual assault often is conducted outside the criminal justice system. Providing accountability, protections for victims and due process for the accused, while fostering a new culture in which such violence is not tolerated and in which victims are not intimidated or bullied out of reporting the crimes, are common goals. Ms. Gillibrand and Ms. McCaskill are also the authors of bills to address campus assaults.

At the same time, the Obama administration has pressed universities hard to better report and deal with sexual assault under laws many have flouted.

“I have said I believe we should support survivors of attacks,” said Mr. Roth, the Wesleyan president. “The second thing we need is to have clear public procedures for punishing perpetrators.”

Some universities are also reconsidering their policies on Greek life, which some critics have insisted are at the center of sexual violence on campus. At the University of Mary Washington in Virginia, the consideration of establishing a fraternity and sorority system was delayed this week by President Richard Hurley.

At Wesleyan, Mr. Roth suspended the fraternity Psi Upsilon’s ability to hold social events until the end of 2015. The University of Virginia has suspended its fraternity activities until January.

That university’s Board of Visitors is expected to develop new and tougher policies for assaults on campus that officials desperately hope can rewind its growing image as a symbol of rape culture.

But in the case of all violence, there are matters ingrained in the culture that experts on sexual violence say go far beyond the institutions now under fire.

“The fix that I’d like to see,” said Erin Buzuvis, the director of the Center for Gender and Sexuality Studies at the Western New England University School of Law, “and one that is relevant whether we are talking about Cosby or the military or U.Va. is to cultivate as individuals and society intolerance to the ways violence against women is normalized in the media, through sports, on TV and in movies, in video games, in advertising and online.”

Skeptics may say that is more an aspiration than a change likely to occur anytime soon. But Ms. McCaskill, who prosecuted sex crimes before she joined the Senate, said there was something real building, beginning with the willingness of victims to come forward in ways they had not.

“What you’re seeing with Cosby and college campuses and the military is that victims are gaining strength by seeing the courage of other victims,” she said. “I have seen this incredible increase in the number of people who have come out and are saying, ‘I want people to know that this happened to me.’ ”


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/05/us/string-of-sexual-assault-cases-may-lead-to-tipping-point.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3As&_r=0


We are seeing a major change in the willingness of victims to come forward, and a greater willingness by others to listen to them, and believe them, and that's what's making a definite change in the national discussion on rape/sexual assault that's taking place in the country now.
hawkeye10
 
  4  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 07:02 pm
@firefly,
Lets look at the study that you promoted for a sec:

Quote:
• 2.1% (Heenan & Murray, 2006)
• 2.5% (Kelly et al., 2005)
• 3.0% (McCahill et al., 1979)
• 5.9% (the present study)
• 6.8% (Lonsway & Archambault, 2008)
• 8.3% (Grace et al., 1992)
• 10.3% (Clark & Lewis, 1977)
• 10.9% (Harris & Grace, 1999)


http://www.icdv.idaho.gov/conference/handouts/False-Allegations.pdf

We have this

Quote:
Of the 136 cases of sexual assault 8 (5.9%) were coded as false reports, 61 (44.9%)
did not proceed to any prosecution or disciplinary action, 48 (35.3%) were referred for
prosecution or disciplinary action, and 19 (13.9%) contained insufficient information to
be coded (see Table 2). It should be noted that in no case did the research team “override”
the classification of a false report made by the police department. The eight cases
that were described as false reports by the police investigators were also categorized that
way by the coders.
Of the eight false reports, three involved clear admissions from complainants that they
had fabricated the report for ulterior motives, and a fourth investigation yielded a partial
admission, combined with other evidence that facts had been fabricated. Three cases were
coded as false reports after extensive police investigation—multiple witness interviews
and careful fact checking—yielded evidence that the reports were fabricated, even though
the complainant did not ultimately state that her report was false. A final case was coded as
a false report even though it was complex and ambiguous. The complainant recanted her
report, but the facts yielded by the investigation suggested that her initial report was as
much a mislabeling of the incident as a deliberate effort to fabricate



But here is the thing, we dont get told why the 45% of cases did not get referred for action. How many of these cases died because the investigators never found any evidence of a crime because the alleged victim was lying, yet they did not go to all the work required to prove that the alleged victim was lying? Police are busy, and they have political reasons to not prove that the alleged victim was lying, so they just drop it. This 6% that got proven to be fabrications is almost certainly just the tip of the iceberg.

And this is what we see over and over again, unfounded assumptions built into the study the skews the results the way the researchers want them skewed. And this is a tactic that we see the feminists employing over and over again, claiming to know something that they in fact do not know.
hawkeye10
 
  4  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 07:08 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
that school is under federal investigation for its handing of sexual assault cases quite apart from anything in the RS article


And so are a lot of school, an important topic in its own right, and a major abuse of federal power, power that was gained by the feds role in student loans, yet another federal program that long ago when off the rails so far as its intended mission and is being used as a Trojan Horse to gain federal power. This is much like how the Feds use their role has gas tax collectors to force states to adopt their standards on matters such as speed limits and BAC laws. ......"you can do what ever you want, but if you dont do what we tell you you will not get the money" . This is abuse of power.
 

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