25
   

1 in 5 women get raped?

 
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 07:15 am
@wmwcjr,
wmwcjr wrote:
Baloney! You seem to be completely ignorant of their record. They have ridiculed and mocked members of this very forum who are actual rape victims. That doesn't bother you?

Context is important. I looked over the rape thread once or twice. I didn't see the actual event to which you are referring, but they were being opposed by many unreasonable and extreme people who cared little about being truthful.

My guess is they reacted in exasperation to a particularly intolerant post, and then that exasperated reaction was further blown out of proportion.


wmwcjr wrote:
Actually, they've made quite a few disturbing comments about other subjects such as their own sexual proclivities, child porn, and lowering the age of consent to 12.

I also glanced over the child porn argument thread a couple times. They were faced by the same intolerant and unreasonable crowd as on the other thread.

Their arguments regarding child porn were very clearly of the nature of believing innocent people to be wrongfully accused.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 08:57 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Their arguments regarding child porn were very clearly of the nature of believing innocent people to be wrongfully accused.


You can added into that at least for myself that US laws is too harsh for the crime of only having such sick materials.

A position, as far as federal sentencing guidelines are concern, that the majority of federal judges happen to share by polls.

I have no problem with the level of punishment being level for this crime by other western nations with special note of the UK.

If had reached the point that the raping of a child in some cases had resulted in less punishment then having pictures of such a crime does in the US.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 11:17 am
Quote:
If you don't believe the rape victim, chances are you're wrong

People lie. We lie about liking our in-laws. We lie about our income. We lie to our parents about studying at the library when really we're smoking weed in the park.

These lies are common. A victim lying about rape is not.

Yet Rolling Stone decided Friday to distance itself from its widely read story about a violent sexual assault on the University of Virginia campus. The story, written by Sabrina Rubin Erdely, followed a survivor named Jackie. It documented the subsequent campus investigation into the fraternity brothers who allegedly raped Jackie in 2012.

Problem is, Rolling Stone never actually talked with those accused men.

"Because of the sensitive nature of Jackie's story, we decided to honor her request not to contact the man she claimed orchestrated the attack on her nor any of the men she claimed participated in the attack for fear of retaliation against her," managing editor Will Dana wrote in a statement.

Then Dana cited "discrepancies in Jackie's account."

Whether they meant to or not, Rolling Stone effectively told readers: Jackie lied about being raped. True, they couched it in the claim that they believed Jackie in the beginning. (Insert pat on the back here.)

But ultimately, Rolling Stone writes, "Our trust in her was misplaced."

Let's get something clear: Trusting Jackie wasn't the problem. Because false rape accusations are so rare, the decision to trust a person who says she was raped is never misplaced. If Rolling Stone had done its due diligence, it might have been able to defend its trust in its source when the fraternity pushed back on the accusation.

Instead, in the face of criticism, Rolling Stone is now implying that Jackie might have misled the reporter, rather than centering the blame squarely on its lack of journalistic standards. That's utterly irresponsible.

As a result, people may now read Rolling Stone's half-hearted apology and be dangerously skeptical of victims of sexual assault.

In fact, when survivors decide to come forward and report sexual assault, they are rarely lying. We don't know the details surrounding Jackie's specific case (Rolling Stone isn't talking), but jump to blame a victim — or imply that readers should be skeptical — and chances are you're wrong.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4HKDj7IIAAFFRz.jpg

Out of all reported rapes and sexual assaults, only 2% to 10% are false reports, according to an analysis of several thorough studies. The most recent is a Northeastern study of 136 rape cases over a 10-year period. Only eight of those cases (5.9%) were coded as false allegations. In a 17-month period between January 2011 and May 2012 in England, there were 5,651 prosecutions for rape; of that number, 35 (0.6%) were prosecuted for making false accusations of rape, according to the Crown Prosecution Service.

http://rack.0.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzEyLzA1LzU1L2ZhbHNlcmFwZWFsLjI3MTdjLnBuZwpwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/20e74905/aaf/false-rape-allegations-studies.png

The National Center for the Prosecution of Violence Against Women writes that what people view as the stereotypical signs of "real rape" are actually quite rare. According to prosecutors, "victims often omit, exaggerate or fabricate parts of their account, and they may even recant altogether. They are not typically hysterical when interviewed by medical professionals, law enforcement professionals, prosecutors or others."

That means many actual rape victims exhibit some of the stereotypical "red flag" behavior that an everyday person might find suspect. That does not mean they're lying.

Later on Friday, Rolling Stone's Dana tweeted that the magazine's failure in "getting the other side of the story" was "on us — not on her." But he did nothing to dispel the idea that Jackie was lying.

Critics of Rolling Stone's reporting maintain that insinuations about victims lying are likely to silence future victims. Not to mention that discrediting these women creates skepticism among the friends, family and administrations to whom they'll come for help.

"The girl who cried rape" is not a common person. At the very least, remember that when you're reviewing today's massive journalistic blunder.
http://mashable.com/2014/12/05/false-rape-accusations-rare/


It's important to remember that, regardless of the Rolling Stone story, there are still serious problems with how UVA handles sexual assault complaints. Even in cases where a student has been found guilty of sexual misconduct, UVA has never expelled any student for that violation.

It's also important to remember that a UVA student, Hannah Graham, was recently murdered, and the man suspected of killing her, Jesse Matthew, had been accused of sexual assault at both colleges he attended, and he is currently implicated in the murder of another college student as well as the rape and attempted murder of yet another woman.

Had his pattern of sexual aggression toward women received appropriate scrutiny and investigation when he was first accused of sexual assault as an undergraduate, he could have been identified as a sexual predator at an early stage, and the escalation of his aggression toward women might well have been prevented.

But Matthew was able to avoid such investigation by simply transferring out of his first college, with the transfer school unaware of the sexual assault charges pending against him at the first school, and he simply dropped out of the transfer school when another sexual assault complaint was filed against him there.

It's time that colleges stopped colluding to protect sexual predators and trying to shield them from serious consequences of their actions--UVA has yet to even expel one of them. Nothing about the Rolling Stone story changes any of that.

maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 11:57 am
@firefly,
Firefly,

Do you understand that what you are posting is propaganda? It isn't mathematically or scientifically valid. Just skimming over this article, there are a couple of things that jump out as illogical even without looking into the studies or the numbers.

- This article claims that studies that range from 2.1% to 10.9% are "relatively consistent". That is mathematically ridiculous! That is a huge variance. Saying 1 in 9 reports are false is very different than saying 1 in 50 reports are false.

- The definition of "rapist" isn't clear. With the number given it that silly infographic, it seems like this is the broadest definition of "rape" including sex while drunk. If you ask women if they consider what happened to be rape, the number will be much much lower. This is indirect evidence that was gathered by people with a political incentive to get the highest number possible. It is scientifically flawed.

This is an perfect example of a political bias. You accept all of the evidence that supports your bias (whether it makes sense or not) and reject any contrary evidence.

Obviously now there have been several high profile cases where there have been false reports of rape. In each case, feminists have embarrassed themselves by overreacting to the story before they had even stopped to question the narrative or look at the facts.

The feminists who overreacted in this case should admit their mistake, and maybe learn from it. It doesn't seem like that is likely to happen. People who are so sure they are right that they are unable to listen to differing views often have this problem.
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 12:57 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
- This article claims that studies that range from 2.1% to 10.9% are "relatively consistent". That is mathematically ridiculous! That is a huge variance

The studies have been relatively consistent in having results that fall within that range--there is nothing "mathematically ridiculous" about that. The studies have been done over decades, and some variation in results should be expected. There are no reliable studies that indicate false allegations comprise any significant percentage of reported rapes--generally not more than 5--6% of reported rapes--or that find false allegations are more prevalent for rapes than they are for other crimes.

This is an issue I have discussed at length in the rape thread, where I reviewed the studies which have been done, and I have no intention of doing that again here. The studies are available for you to review, if you have any real interest in the topic. I have taken the time to look at the actual studies and the actual statistics.
Quote:
The definition of "rapist" isn't clear

Rape is defined by state law. False allegations refer to false reports of that crime to police--they can refer to misidentifications, or to fabrications which fail to describe any suspects or give only vague descriptions, or to crimes which never occurred. False rape allegations which name a particular individual constitute the smallest percentage of all false reports.

A few high profile cases of false allegations in no way eclipses the overwhelmingly higher number of actual rape cases that occur, nor does it, nor should it, reflect on the credibility of all individuals who report they were raped.

Even in the case of the Rolling Stone article, I think people should at least wait to hear from Jackie, as to whether she intentionally wanted to mislead the reporter or whether something else is going on with her. In the other high profile false allegation cases--such as the cases at Duke and Hofstra--the women who made the claims were seriously emotionally disturbed.



BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 01:20 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Do you understand that what you are posting is propaganda?


Of course she know she is posting nonsense.

Violence crimes of all types including sexual crimes are at a many decades low and there is no so call rape culture or rape crisis on or off college campuses except as a tool for feminists to attack men as a class.

One nice thing about getting fundings for a crisis that does not exist you can not fail.
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 01:35 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Violence crimes of all types including sexual crimes are at a many decades low...

Based on previous crime reporting statistics that the Justice Department has admitted were inaccurate due to their own undercounting of rapes which occurred at the state level.

You know that is the case, you simply have no regard for the truth.

You seem to regard rapes as being at an acceptable level--sure people are being raped, but to you that's no big deal. Why not? Why is any amount of rape acceptable to you?
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 01:52 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
The studies have been relatively consistent in having results that fall within that range--there is nothing "mathematically ridiculous" about that..


- 2.1% means that about 1 in 50 reports are false.
- 10.9% means that about 1 in 9 reports are false.

If you say somewhere between 1 in 9 and 1 in 50 reports are false, this is a ridiculously big difference.


Quote:
Rape is defined by state law


The term rape that defines each figure on that silly infographic is not defined by state law. It is defined by the creators of these studies who have a political motive to define rape in such a way as to get the highest number possible.

The DOJ statistics (which is specifically looking as rape as defined by criminal statute) gives a much lower number.

Quote:
Even in the case of the Rolling Stone article, I think people should at least wait to hear from Jackie, as to whether she intentionally wanted to mislead the reporter or whether something else is going on with her. In the other high profile false allegation cases--such as the cases at Duke and Hofstra--the women who made the claims were seriously emotionally disturbed.


The issue is that ideology is more important than facts or reason. Sure, a possibly disturbed woman make the false allegation, but that wasn't what did the damage.

The damage was caused by the outraged feminist mob that started demanding punishment before they had even heard the facts or questioned the story. The fraternity house was not only shut down, it was vandalized.

The narrative caused feminists to act irrationally. They were outraged before they knew the facts and they caused an injustice. That was a mistake.

They should own up for it. I have yet to see any feminist apologizing to the fraternity that was the unjust target of their wrath.

maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 01:57 pm
@firefly,
Firefly, are you able to look at the evidence that contradicts your bias? There is scientific evidence that the feminist political groups are over counting rapes.

One of the most compelling is that if you ask women directly "have you ever been raped", the number will be far lower than these studies are showing. These studies are making indirect inferences.

It maybe that the number is somewhere in between. As I have said consistently , the 1 in 5 figure seems rather ridiculous for several reasons.

Whether you believe the 1 in 5 figure has a lot to do with your ideology. Do the facts matter?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 02:09 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The narrative caused feminists to act irrationally. They were outraged before they knew the facts and they caused an injustice. That was a mistake.


First you only need to refer to the Duke players so call gang rape case to see how feminists will always jump on such stories with great joy as it supported their view of men as a class.

Now there was all manner of reasons to have some questions concerning this gang rape story at least without checking it out with a fine tooth comb.

First the idea that eight college men would accepted the idea that they needed to gang rape a woman as part of pledging for a college fraternity!!!!!!

Next the idea that any woman would not ended up in an ICU unit if she had been violently gang rape by eight men is a nice big red flag by itself.

You need to shut your mind off and or have a strong desire to belief in order to accepted this kind on nonsense without overwhelming evidence that it had in fact occur.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 02:15 pm
@maxdancona,
Let me know when you actually read all of the most reliable studies on the false reporting of rapes.

I have read them, and trust me, you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
Quote:
There is scientific evidence that the feminist political groups are over counting rapes.

There is no such evidence because it's not any "feminist political group" that actually does the surveys that compile statistics on the incidence of rapes. Can you even name one such feminist political group?

And surely you are aware the Justice Department has admitted it has been undercounting rapes on the national level, because it previously excluded significant numbers of rapes that were reported on the state level. Current numbers of rape reports, now coming into the Justice Department, consequently reflect an increase over previous years.

How do you know there was an "outraged feminist mob" at UVA? Do you think only "feminists" reacted to the Rolling Stone story? Did the protesters all identify themselves as "feminists"?

I think it's time you began naming the actual "feminists" you are referring to and stop eluding to some murky conspiracy of people you can't even identify or name. Your thinking is reminiscent of the paranoia that led to people being branded "commies' during the McCarthy era.

hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 02:23 pm
@firefly,


Quote:
Let me know when you actually read all of the most reliable studies on the false reporting of rapes.

We dont know for sure, because this is one of the many areas where for decades the Feminists were able to keep science from investigating. However, we have reason to believe that it is a serious problem, as we for damn sure need to fund some good scientists to go out and measure.



Quote:
In fact, as Emily Bazelon and Rachael Larimore wrote in Slate five years ago, official data on what law enforcement terms “unfounded” rape reports (that is, ones in which the police determine that no crime occurred) yield conflicting numbers, depending on local policies and procedures—averaging 8 percent to 10 percent of all reported rapes. Yet the truth is even knottier than these statistics suggest. The answer to “How common are false allegations?” depends largely on how false allegations are defined. Do we count only cases in which a police report—or a complaint to some other official authority, such as a college administrator—is shown to be deliberately false? Do we include informal, word-of-mouth charges like the one against Oberst? What of he said/she said cases in which the truth is never known?


http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/09/false_rape_accusations_why_must_be_pretend_they_never_happen.html

Fireflies claim that we have the science, and that we know that this is not a big problem, is a classic Firefly lie.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 02:27 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
A false accusation of rape is the intentional reporting of a rape by an alleged victim when no rape has occurred. Studies have found that police typically classify between 1.5 and 8% of rape accusations as unfounded, unproven or false, however researchers say those determinations are often dubious. The "conventional scholarly wisdom," according to American law professor Michelle J. Anderson, is that two percent of rape complaints made to the police are false. The United States Justice Department agrees, saying false accusations "are estimated to occur at the low rate of two percent -- similar to the rate of false accusations for other violent crimes." However, others say eight percent or more of rape accusations are false, and as a scientific matter the answer remains unknown.[


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

Summation: We dont know.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 02:32 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
We dont know for sure, because this is one of the many areas where for decades the Feminists were able to keep science from investigating. However, we have reason to believe that it is a serious problem, as we for damn sure need to fund some good scientists to go out and measure.


There been two studies that been posted about many many times on this website one dealing with two mid-west cities over a ten years period that found the false reporting rate when it come to non-strangers was just under 50 percents and another one dealing with a thousand plus cases concerning the US air-force with a false reporting rate at around 25 percents.

Of course for some strange reason no very large studies had yet to be done and even mid sized studies such as the above two studies had not been repeated.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 02:37 pm
@BillRM,
could it be higher that 8-10%? Sure. But my instincts tell me that it cant be higher than 15%. In anycase we need to stop buying the unsupported feminist claim that women rarely lie about sexual assault and go find out. We are finally beginning to see some studies on human sexuallity that are not completely corrupted by the feminists political power, but this area of false accusations of sexual assault has so far not been one of the areas that we have been able to shine the light of truth on.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 02:38 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
I have read them, and trust me, you don't know what the hell you are talking about.


I have read them too, and I do know what I am talking about. The difference between you and I is that I read them critically without a predefined bias. I read both sides of the story and I question both sides.

I can tell you the valid criticisms of the DOJ numbers, and I can accept that the criticisms are valid. Can you tell me the valid criticisms of the "1 in 5" number?

Quote:
I think it's time you began naming the actual "feminists" you are referring to and stop eluding to some murky conspiracy of people you can't even identify or name.


You are misstating my point.

There is a narrative that has a political motivation. The "1 in 5" claim is part of this narrative. It is supported because it is important to the politics although credible scientists point out the obvious problems with this claim.

I am not against a "murky conspiracy of people". I am against the hype. There is politically motivation to push this narrative. The facts don't matter.

This is the same sort of thing that happened with the Ebola hype. I am not against public health. I am against the hype that makes up facts for political ends leading to horrible public policy.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 02:56 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
could it be higher that 8-10%? Sure. But my instincts tell me that it cant be higher than 15%


When it come to all rapes I might agree with you however when it come to non-strangers rapes I do not agree that it is that low.

Take note that in child custody cases for example the majority of claims of sexual child abused by the fathers turn out to be unfounded.

To me charging an innocent father with child sexual abused is even worst then charging an innocent man with rape and yet it does happen all the time in numbers far greater then 15 percents.
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 03:02 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
To me charging an innocent father with child sexual abused is even worst then charging an innocent man with rape and yet it does happen all the time in numbers far greater then 15 percents.


My understanding is that over the years after seeing too many false accusations that lead to court rulings that were extremely harmful to men unjustly that judges have become extremely cynical about claims of CSA that happen during divorce. This is what needs to happen to claims of sexual abuse at the university, were we are seeing too many professional victims getting their feelings hurt during sex and then launching false accusations of sexual assault against our young men.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 03:02 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
We dont know for sure, because this is one of the many areas where for decades the Feminists were able to keep science from investigating.

Can you cite one instance of that ever happening? Which feminists were able to do that extraordinary feat? Are you hearing these things from the voices in your head?

Research in this area has been going on for decades unimpeded by any outside groups..

And the definition of exactly what is meant by a false report or false allegation is contained in each study--each investigator operationally defines it--which you would know if you actually read any of these studies.

Obviously the focus in studying false allegations can only be on those rapes actually reported to police. Without such a report, there are no measurable criminal legal allegations of consequence. False allegations, if any, would be a percentage of total reported rapes during any given time period, and in one locality.

The only study of false allegations I know of that has been thoroughly discredited, due to extremely flawed methodology, is one that BillRM is fond of citing that found 40+% of the rape allegations made in one geographical area to be false, and it wasn't discredited by "feminists" it was discredited, at great length, by another prominent (male) researcher in the field, with others in the field concurring with him. But that doesn't stop BillRM from constantly citing this discredited study. Laughing BillRM and truth are relatively unacquainted.
Quote:
The "conventional scholarly wisdom," according to American law professor Michelle J. Anderson, is that two percent of rape complaints made to the police are false. The United States Justice Department agrees, saying false accusations "are estimated to occur at the low rate of two percent -- similar to the rate of false accusations for other violent crimes." However, others say eight percent or more of rape accusations are false, and as a scientific matter the answer remains unknown.

So, if only 2% of rape allegations are generally false, then 98% of them are generally not false.
If even 8% of them are false, then 92% of them are not false.

The issue of false allegations has been blown up, and hyped up, out of all proportion to actual occurrence, by those who want to try to discredit or cast aspersions on all those, particularly women, who report they have been raped.
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 03:14 pm
@firefly,
Quote:

Can you cite one instance of that ever happening? Which feminists were able to do that extraordinary feat?

Pressure on scientist to not look into certain matters is never going to see the light of day, because everyone involved has strong motivation to see that it does not. The feminist dont want anyone to get the idea that their claims are make believe or at least are not proven, and Scientists have no desire for the people to know that science has been corrupted by politics.

However, the way this works is that scientist affiliated with the university that pisses the feminists off is going to find their career under great threat, primarily though finding loss, and any scientist outside of the university orbit that pisses off the feminists can kiss away any chance of hitching up the the university gravy train in the future.

Quote:
The issue of false allegations has been blown up, and hyped up, out of all proportion to actual occurrence,
Nonsense, we dont know how often this happens so we are in no position to say. First we find out, then we talk.
 

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