9
   

When did it become OK to kill human shields?

 
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  0  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 09:50 am
http://able2know.org/topic/250795-1

That's been my whole point: Israel is just doing what Hamas wants it to do, has maneuvered it into doing. 'Nuff said.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 10:05 am
@Lustig Andrei,
This article is entitled "Does Hamas Want Israel To Kill Their Children?" If I understand the argument correctly, it is claiming that Israel is not morally accountable for killing children because Hamas wants them to.

That makes even less sense then normal propaganda (not that I would expect any more from CBN).
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 11:04 am
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig Andrei wrote:

Bullshit. Hamas is notorious for hiding out among civilians not to protect themselves but, rather, to encourage Israelis to create some "collateral damage." It's their way of making the Israelis look bad in the world press and encourage discussions that head in the direction you're headed in with this thread. Hamas and the Islamic Brotherhood and the rest of those mass murderers know quite well they cannot win in a contest of arms with Israel. So they use the psychological tools available.

I'm sorry but this is one issue where I part company with most of my friends here on A2k. In my opinion -- which I do not consider humble -- Israel has every right to exist as a state and to take any steps its leadership deems necessary to protect itself from extinction, which, after all, is the goal of Hamas and the PLO and every other Islamic entity in the Levant. It is unfortunate that innocent civilians get killed as a result of acts which are no more than self-defensive. But, in the long run, the responsibility and blame rests with the aggressor, not the defender.

If I'm going to lose some friends as a result of this stand, so be it. That, too, is unfortunate but it's where I stand on this issue.


I have many of the same qualms with this statement as Max, Andy.

"Any means???"

Even if it were to mean the planet were plunged into nuclear war?

And while you may correctly suppose that Israel has "every right to exist as a state"...are you saying that Arabs have no right to want it to cease to exist as a state where it is?

Lots of gray in this problem. Hardly any true blacks and whites.


0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 12:15 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
You're agreeing with Miller?

Instead of going with your gut, use your head. This whole conflict started with the kidnapping and subsequent murder of 3 Israeli students in the West Bank. Israel immediately blamed Hamas, but most neutrals thought that unlikely since Hamas had just entered into a power sharing agreement with Fatah. It was more likely to be a more extreme group like Islamic Jihad or ISIS, some have even accused Mossad.

Israels heavy handed approach which resulted in plenty of Palestinians dying and provoked retaliatory rocket attacks.

Those are the facts, the only part still open to debate is who kidnapped the Israeli students.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 01:45 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig Andrei wrote:
That's a nonsensical argument. The United States exists at the expense of the indigenous American people, the so-called Indians. Why don't we white folks and the Africans whose ancestors we imported just get the hell out? The Jews have a far better claim on the territory of Israel than Europeans do on the North and/or South American continents. Unless, of course, you want to argue that Abraham and his people had no right to dispossess the Philistines and Cananites somewhere around 3,ooo b.c.e. to begin with. But that's a different argument from saying that Jews of the 20th Century had no right to return from the Diaspora and reclaim their ancient homeland.


The US has granted the indigenous American people full rights of citizenship as well as certain amounts of autonomy. You can't compare Israel with the US in that regard.

You're tying the idea that Israel has the right to exist as as state with religious mythology.
0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  0  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 04:36 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
You're agreeing with Miller?


I'm agreeing with most of the article that Miller posted, that's all.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 05:08 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
The rhetoric supporting Israel's brutal war is beyond any reason.

Israel is waging a just war of self defense. Therefore saying so is perfectly reasonable.


maxdancona wrote:
Destroying your home's and livelihoods of civilians is morally wrong, telling you beforehand that they are going to destroy your home doesn't change that.

War has many unpleasant effects, but it is not morally wrong for Jews to defend themselves when they are attacked.


maxdancona wrote:
Killing women and children is morally wrong. Labeling these women and children "human shields" before they kill them doesn't change the fact that it is morally wrong. Accusing the enemy of acting immorally themselves still doesn't change the fact that it is morally wrong to kill women and children.

Collateral damage is an accepted part of warfare.

It may come as a surprise to you, but Jews get to use the same laws of war that the rest of us do.


maxdancona wrote:
Trapping nearly 2 million people including women, children and innocent civilians, based only on their ethnicity, in a small strip of land that you have under siege that is cut off from the world is morally wrong.

Blockades are an accepted part of warfare.

It may come as a surprise to you, but Jews get to use the same laws of war that the rest of us do.


maxdancona wrote:
The only justification for this brutal action seems to be "Hey.... Hamas is doing horrible immoral things, so we can too".

The justification for this brutal action is the fact that Israel is waging a just war of self defense.


maxdancona wrote:
Sorry, I don't buy it.

Your denial of reality does not alter that reality.


maxdancona wrote:
I only wish the someone had the courage to put an end to America's part in this shameful war.

Americans are proud of our support for Israel.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 05:10 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
And that agreement seems based on your gut. I have been posting evidence that contradicts your beliefs, but you've not posted anything other than opinion.

If you doubt what I'm saying, go back over old news archives, start with the kidnapping of the Israeli students. Follow the timeline, cause and effect.

This did not start with Hamas firing rockets.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 05:11 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig Andrei wrote:
I'm sorry but this is one issue where I part company with most of my friends here on A2k.

Never be ashamed of doing the right thing and defending the truth.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 05:15 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Israel is acting in a way I find morally reprehensible.

You can't stand the idea of Jews defending themselves can you?


maxdancona wrote:
They should be held accountable in the world press, and yes that means they should look bad.
Immoral acts should be portrayed as immoral. That is the best way to stop them from happening.

Your call for a fresh wave of anti-Semitism is disgusting.


maxdancona wrote:
The phrase you used, "any steps the leadership deems necessary to protect itself from extinction" is a key part of what I am talking about. Any steps? That is an awfully big catchphrase that encompasses an huge amount of acts. This logic can be used to justify anything no matter how brutal (and maybe it has).

Israel is fully complying with the laws of war.


maxdancona wrote:
Should every country decide to do any action, no matter how immoral, that the leadership deems necessary to protect itself from extinction?

It is hardly immoral for Jews to wage a just war of self defense.


maxdancona wrote:
The idea that the present Israeli action in Gaza, and the thousands of deaths that are resulting is necessary to prevent Israel's extinction is ridiculous.

It's not like there are actually thousands of deaths.

However, Jews have the right to defend themselves no matter how much you don't like it.


maxdancona wrote:
As is the argument that the deaths from Israeli bullets and bombs are all Hamas' fault.

Hamas are the aggressors who make it necessary for Israel to defend themselves.


maxdancona wrote:
This morally empty argument since it is clear that if Israel wasn't acting in this way, these deaths would not be happening.

No, the fact that Israel is waging a just war of self defense is not a morally empty argument.


maxdancona wrote:
There are two partners in the immoral dance.

You and Hamas maybe, but Israel is doing nothing wrong.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 05:16 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Those are awfully empty words.

Your rejection of international law does not invalidate it.


maxdancona wrote:
Israel does not "target" civilians? How does that make any moral difference?

Targeting civilians would be an actual crime.

That's why Palestinians are criminals. They target civilians.


maxdancona wrote:
The fact is that this Israeli military action is killing hundreds of civilians.

Falsified death tolls are anything but factual.

But even if it actually were a fact, it certainly isn't Israel's fault that they need to defend themselves.


maxdancona wrote:
This bellicose rhetoric can be used to justify any brutal act, but it fails.

It succeeds when it is referring to actual acts of self defense.


maxdancona wrote:
Saying that Hamas is also morally reprehensible doesn't justify the actions of this brutal Israeli action.

Saying that Israel is merely defending themselves according to the laws of war, though, justifies it completely.


maxdancona wrote:
What Israel is doing is morally reprehensible.

You can't stand the idea of Jews being able to defend themselves, can you?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 05:19 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Are you willing to use these justifications of violence by Israel to justify acts of violence in other conflicts.
For example, the people who shot down Malaysia airlines flight 17 were clearly not targeting civilians. Their aim was to shoot down Ukrainian military planes, not Malaysian airliners.
Does this mean that they are not responsible for these deaths?
If you are really arguing based on principle, that principle should apply in any conflict.

The Russian separatists were just firing at everything in the air without bothering to determine what they were even shooting at.

Israel is doing their best to hit actual military targets, and is doing their best to reduce civilian casualties around those actual military targets.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 05:21 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
Lustig Andrei wrote:
Israel has every right to exist as a state...

Why?

Israel has the right to use atomic weapons against anyone who tries to destroy them.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 05:37 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The United States has offered the remaining Native Americans full citizenship with the right to vote.


Only after we killed off all those who could not change from a raiding culture into more peaceful ways of life,

I could see Palestinians getting far more rights including perhaps citizenship after the Palestinian culture that celebrate mass murders with block parties is totally destructed.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 05:41 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I also strongly reject the mythical justification of Israel's occupation. The fact is that the Palestinians too have ancestors that were living in Israel for just as long as the Jews.... in fact genetic studies show they share the same ancient ancestors.
The world will be a better place when we stop using mythology to justify our actions.

DNA shows that the Palestinians come from somewhere other than Israel.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 05:50 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
This article is entitled "Does Hamas Want Israel To Kill Their Children?" If I understand the argument correctly, it is claiming that Israel is not morally accountable for killing children because Hamas wants them to.

Setting aside for a moment the fact that these "deaths" are mostly fabricated, Israel is not accountable for the killing because they are waging a just war of self defense.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jul, 2014 06:44 am
Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child
A tape recording of radio exchanges between soldiers involved in the incident, played on Israeli television, contradicts the army's account of the events and appears to show that the captain shot the girl in cold blood.

The official account claimed that Iman was shot as she walked towards an army post with her schoolbag because soldiers feared she was carrying a bomb.

But the tape recording of the radio conversation between soldiers at the scene reveals that, from the beginning, she was identified as a child and at no point was a bomb spoken about nor was she described as a threat. Iman was also at least 100 yards from any soldier.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jul, 2014 07:14 am
@bobsal u1553115,
It's chilling, but it's hardly surprising, it just confirms what most of us knew all along. (Those of us without ostrich DNA that is.)
Quote:

An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza dismissed a warning from another soldier that she was a child by saying he would have killed her even if she was three years old.
The officer, identified by the army only as Captain R, was charged this week with illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions after emptying all 10 bullets from his gun's magazine into Iman al-Hams when she walked into a "security area" on the edge of Rafah refugee camp last month.

A subsequent investigation by the officer responsible for the Gaza strip, Major General Dan Harel, concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically".

So much for Israeli ethics.
However, the military police launched an investigation, which resulted in charges against the unit commander.

Iman's parents have accused the army of whitewashing the affair by filing minor charges against Captain R. They want him prosecuted for murder.


bobsal u1553115
  Selected Answer
 
  2  
Reply Thu 31 Jul, 2014 07:16 am
Henry Siegman, Leading Voice of US Jewry, on Gaza: "A Slaughter of Innocents"
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/30/henry_siegman_leading_voice_of_us

Given his background, what American Jewish leader Henry Siegman has to say about Israel’s founding in 1948 through the current assault on Gaza may surprise you. From 1978 to 1994, Siegman served as executive director of the American Jewish Congress, long described as one of the nation’s "big three" Jewish organizations along with the American Jewish Committee and the Anti-Defamation League. Born in Germany three years before the Nazis came to power in 1933, Siegman’s family eventually moved to the United States. His father was a leader of the European Zionist movement that pushed for the creation of a Jewish state. In New York, Siegman studied the religion and was ordained as an Orthodox rabbi by Yeshiva Torah Vodaas, later becoming head of the Synagogue Council of America. After his time at the American Jewish Congress, Siegman became a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. He now serves as president of the U.S./Middle East Project. In the first of our two-part interview, Siegman discusses the assault on Gaza, the myths surrounding Israel’s founding in 1948, and his own background as a German-Jewish refugee who fled Nazi occupation to later become a leading American Jewish voice and now vocal critic of Israel’s policies in the Occupied Territories.

"When one thinks that this is what is necessary for Israel to survive, that the Zionist dream is based on the repeated slaughter of innocents on a scale that we’re watching these days on television, that is really a profound, profound crisis — and should be a profound crisis in the thinking of all of us who were committed to the establishment of the state and to its success," Siegman says. Responding to Israel’s U.S.-backed claim that its assault on Gaza is necessary because no country would tolerate the rocket fire from militants in Gaza, Siegman says: "What undermines this principle is that no country and no people would live the way that Gazans have been made to live. … The question of the morality of Israel’s action depends, in the first instance, on the question, couldn’t Israel be doing something this disaster that is playing out now, in terms of the destruction of human life? Couldn’t they have done something that did not require that cost? And the answer is, sure, they could have ended the occupation."
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Jul, 2014 07:17 am
@izzythepush,
Its war crime.
 

Related Topics

Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
GOP Empire Strikes Back - Discussion by parados
Government School Indoctrination - Discussion by H2O MAN
The Democrats will win again in 2016 - Discussion by Robert Gentel
Romney 2012? - Discussion by snood
Can Obama Lose? Will he be a one-term president? - Discussion by Robert Gentel
Obama care 2014 - Discussion by wts
The 'I voted' thread! - Question by Cycloptichorn
 
Copyright © 2021 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 11/30/2021 at 11:44:59