@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I find your vehemence concerning Zionists and your repeated reference to "the Jews" troubling, however I suspect you may be employing the later just to elicit charges of anti-Semitism.
The reason I put the term "the Jews" in parenthesis is because of the simplism of the idea of Jews being a monolithic entity, much like the simplism of considering Muslims to be a monolithic entity, which is employed for political expediency . The state of Israel and the Zionists do not speak for all of the Jews of the world, however much their rhetoric serves to further their agenda.
Finn dAbuzz wrote:I can imagine an objection to a Jewish State based on an aversion to theocracies, however, as you know, Israel is not a theocratic state and I don't recall your ever expressing a similar vehement objection to any of the numerous Muslim States.
I object to Israel’s status as a Jewish State based on my aversion to ethnocentricity and the oppression of the Palestinians that is necessary to maintain that ethnocentricity of the state of Israel in the name of a demographic majority of Jews. I’m averse to theocracies as well because they also tend to be oppressive.
Finn dAbuzz wrote:I can also imagine that someone who regards democracy with an almost religious fervor divorcing all other factors from consideration and finding that Israel is skirting a purists implementation of the concept, but such a person, it seems to me, would find a lot more reason to criticize a lot of other nations, rather than simply Israel. Perhaps you have, but I don't recall you criticizing the Palestinian leadership for their un-democratic ways.
Ethnocentricity in a state tends to be undemocratic when there are other ethnicities that reside in that state, regardless of what form of government they claim to have. With Israel, democracy is implemented to a certain degree in regard to the Arabs living within the green line, but its very own Or Report published at the beginnings of the Second Intifada found that discrimination against the Israeli Arabs was systematic within the Israeli government. This systematic discrimination isn’t surprising considering Israel’s self-designation as "the state for the Jews."
Yeah, the Palestinians can also improve their democratic political structures. Their attempts to reconcile their two major political factions is an indication of this improvement.
Finn dAbuzz wrote:And I can imagine someone criticizing Israel for lobbying members of our congress, although I would expect greater criticism be directed at the members of congress who are influenced by these efforts, and (once again) a consistency of criticism of any nation that lobbies our government.
(It seems on the issue of lobbying the left in the US tends to find it sinister and corrupting only when it is done by entities with which they have some fundamental problem i.e. corporations and Israel. Other groups like Unions and Environmentalist Activists are somehow perceived to only be seeking to educate.)
Not all lobbying efforts are bad, though, regardless of who is lobbying or for whom it’s being done. I object to the lobbying that’s done in the name of Israel to perpetuate its existence as an ethnocentric state that in order to exist necessarily oppresses the Palestinian people.
I’m for the lobbying that pushes for an independent state for the Kurdish people.
Finn dAbuzz wrote:Finally, you are far too intelligent and well-informed to not realize the inevitable outcome of Israel granting the Right of Return to the Palestinians, as well as the primary reason for making it so inviolate a demand, so I'm afraid I must assume you look favorably on that outcome.
If you’re alluding to some scenario of mass genocide of the Jews in Israel were the Right of Return granted to the Palestinian people, yours is a gross non sequitur. It’s based on the smearing of the Palestinians with stereotypes of Islamist bloodlust. You need to get over your prejudices.
Finn dAbuzz wrote:It's an impossible hypothetical, but if there was some way for the Right of Return to be granted and for Israel to remain a Jewish State, what would be your reaction?
What exactly do you mean by Israel remaining a Jewish State if not the maintenance of a Jewish majority there?
Finn dAbuzz wrote:I really don't believe that all critics of Israel are anti-Semites, not even all of the rabid ones that greatly exaggerate Israel's errors and misdeeds, while greatly minimizing and excusing those of the Palestinians. I suspect that you will acknowledge that at least some segment of Israel's critics are motivated by bigotry though, and that they enjoy the ability to join others in slamming Jews, and getting to feel morally superior while doing so.
Ok.
Finn dAbuzz wrote:But I can't read your mind, only your comments and, as I wrote, I remain uncertain at to your motivation.
Not that you should care.
Well, you certainly care enough to question my motivation for criticizing the state of Israel, and the ideology behind it, certainly, I should care enough to respond to these doubts especially when you bandy about suspicions of racial hatred as being my motivation.
