Israel's Shame

@InfraBlue,

Foofie wrote,

Quote:

So do the Cubans, so do Mexicans, and so do Native Americans. Not the Palestinians, since they will not "return" to Israel as loyal citizens, in the opinion of many present Israelis

Do you understand the concept of "conflict of interest?"

FACT: Cubans are now able to travel out and back into Cuba, and return to their country that still has many restrictions against their own people. Nothing like Israel.

From the JewishVirtualLibrary.

Quote:

Conclusions
This short survey has shown that neither under the international conventions, nor under the major UN resolutions, nor under the relevant agreements between the parties, do the Palestinian refugees have a right to return to Israel. According to Palestinian sources, there are about 3.5 million Palestinian refugees nowadays registered with UNRWA.13 If Israel were to allow all of them to return to her territory, this would be an act of suicide on her part, and no state can be expected to destroy itself.

Great efforts should be made by all those involved, and with the help of friendly outside powers, to find a reasonable, viable and fair solution to the refugee problem.14

Foofie, Do you always lie about this issue?

0 Replies

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Yes sir. so the best outcome is for Israel to go into Gaza and free those poor innocent Palestinians of their leaders

Israel is now bombing a hospital. Israel has always targeted innocent Palestinians, and now they're bombing a hospital.

I notice that even you can't justify the killing of pregnant women and new born babies by the IDF, so you ignore it and pretend it never happened. That's par for the course.

Quote:

The Israeli military destroys el-Wafa hospital in the Gaza Strip, Foreign Affairs Correspondent Jonathan Miller hears, as he witnesses another strike on a 4-storey block elsewhere in Gaza.

http://www.channel4.com/news/gaza-hamas-israel-resume-air-strikes-el-wafa-hospital

Follow the link for the video report, it's really chilling, at least for those of us who value the sanctity of human life.

2 Replies

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

As after all killing Jews is no big deal in any case and there is only a problem when the Jews dare to act in self defense.

That is it in a nutshell. You have just managed to put yourself into the minds of many Jews world-wide.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

BillRM wrote:

Yes sir. so the best outcome is for Israel to go into Gaza and free those poor innocent Palestinians of their leaders

Israel is now bombing a hospital. Israel has always targeted innocent Palestinians, and now they're bombing a hospital.

I notice that even you can't justify the killing of pregnant women and new born babies by the IDF, so you ignore it and pretend it never happened. That's par for the course.

Quote:
The Israeli military destroys el-Wafa hospital in the Gaza Strip, Foreign Affairs Correspondent Jonathan Miller hears, as he witnesses another strike on a 4-storey block elsewhere in Gaza.

http://www.channel4.com/news/gaza-hamas-israel-resume-air-strikes-el-wafa-hospital

Follow the link for the video report, it's really chilling, at least for those of us who value the sanctity of human life.

If you have such a morally correct position, why are you talking to private citizens, when the world capitals do nothing? Do you just like to vent? Wouldn't elected leaders in democracies have a more compelling requirement to do something? Instead you are communicating to an under achieving New Yorker?

1 Reply

@Foofie,

You wrote,

Quote:

If you have such a morally correct position, why are you talking to private citizens, when the world capitals do nothing?

Simply because the US promised to support the Israelis, and no country in this world is going to challenge the US. At least, not yet.

Why are you asking such stupid questions?

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

You wrote,
Quote:
If you have such a morally correct position, why are you talking to private citizens, when the world capitals do nothing?

Simply because the US promised to support the Israelis, and no country in this world is going to challenge the US. At least, not yet.

Why are you asking such stupid questions?

But, the leaders of world capitals, especially democracies, should be your audience. Not private citizens that just have one vote. But, waste your time if you like to vent. Stamp your foot too, like Betty Boop, to show your ire.

1 Reply

@Foofie,

My audience? Since when did that happen?

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@cicerone imposter,

You don't read my posts because you have shown yourself to be a little coward, CI. Numerous times.

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@Foofie,

InfraBlue knows full well that the so-called Right of Return is such a key element of the Palestinian demands because it will accomplish demographically what the Arabs have not been able to accomplish military: the elimination of a Jewish State in the Middle East. CI on the other hand just browses anti-Israeli and Left-wing blogs so he can regurgitate propaganda in these threads.

It is a pointless demand because it will never be met. Not ever. Even Noam Chomsky has suggested that it is pointless for the Palestinians to continue to pursue it.

So why then do the Palestinians insist upon it?

I think Abbas might be prepared to give it up if he got the right deal, and he wasn’t afraid of being killed for reaching a peace accord with Israel. For whatever reason though, it’s always been kept in the back pocket of the PLO and taken out when they need to kill negotiations. Hamas will never concede on this demand, but then they don’t want peace.

It wasn't until 1993 that the PLO officially acknowledged Israel's right to exist, but even then they wouldn't agree to acknowledge its right to exist as a Jewish State. Conceding on the Right of Return is tantamount to, at least, a tacit acknowledgment of Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish State. Hamas still refuses to acknowledge Israel's right to exist at all, and will never accept a Jewish State in the region.

Since they always ultimately introduce the issues of ROR and Jerusalem, not matter how far talks progress, it’s difficult to reach any conclusion other than that their leaders don't really want to achieve a lasting resolution, at least in a way that will result in two states.

The Right of Return is a non-starter. As long as it is a condition for peace, there will be no peace. The Palestinians realize this and so its value even as a negotiating lever is non-existent. I’m sure it can supported by International Law and UN Resolutions (some of which are specific to this conflict), but since International Law and UN resolutions are essentially a fiction which nations cite as justification for taking certain actions (often violent), rather than following on a consistent basis, they are irrelevant. When they apply equally to everyone they may have a bearing in this matter.

The status of Jerusalem may also be a non-starter. Muslims seem to have more High Holy sites than Carter has pills (how’s that for a dated reference): The Kaaba, Masjid al-Haram, Al-Majid an-Nabawi, Quba Mosque, Masjid al-Qiblatain, Al-Aqsa Mosque (Jerusalem), Imam Ali Mosque, Imam Hysayn Shrine, Al-Baqi, Jannatul Mualla Cemetery, Sayyidah Zaynab Mosque, Al Abbas Mosque, Sayyidah, Ruqayya Mosque, Bab al-Saghir Cemetery, and, literally, dozens more.

BY comparison, the Jews have really only one: Jerusalem, and specifically the Jewish Quarter which contains Har haBayit, the Temple Mount, the Holy of Holies, Kodesh Hakodashim , the Western Wall, and several other lesser temples. If Israelis were more like the Muslims of old, when they won Jerusalem they would have razed the Dome of the Rock and built Ezekiel’s Temple, Beit haMikdash haShlishi, on its ruins. Instead Israel has allowed the Muslims to manage the site and even imposed a ban on prayer by non-Muslim visitors, a fact not often reported by the media.

This is all information, I’m sure you’re aware of but perhaps not so others. You might even remind me that the Jews have a second scared site, the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron where Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sarah, Rebecca, and Leah, are said to be buried. Not surprisingly Muslims built a mosque over the burial chambers. This tradition led some to question the motivation of the so-called Ground Zero Mosque in NYC.

Israel’s critics seem to blithely dismiss the very major concession made in the mid 90’s whereby control over Gaza and the West Bank was transferred to the Palestinian Authority created for that purpose. The Israelis have already proposed broad concessions on the West Bank Settlements and PM Olmert proposed a withdrawal from most of the West Banks with a swap of land for the retained portion, which would include a territorial link between Gaza and the West Bank. He got relatively far along with Abbas. Although represented as an agreement that reciprocal relations concerning business, water , tourism etc would exist, in effect, this meant that Israel would economically prop up the Palestinian state. I’m convinced Israel is more than prepared to do so in exchange for a lasting peace, and the US would pump in even more that the $400 million it already provides on an annual basis. It actually appeared that an agreement might finally be worked out in 2008, but Hamas would have none of that and the Gaza War broke out on December 27, 2008.

I think the expanding settlements have been a mistake on Israel’s part, but in light of the tactics taken by the Palestinians (Hamas, since 2008) to create leverage for Israeli concessions by firing rockets across the border and killing Israeli civilians, I can understand the thinking behind doing the same with expanded settlements.

The demand for a demilitarized Palestinian state by Netanyahu is seen as an impediment, but with Hamas in control of Gaza and now uniting with Fatah to run the PA, it makes sense. Security safeguards are a must in any eventual agreement. With Hamas in the mix I really see no hope for a resolution. You would think Israel’s hard-core critics would appreciate the near impossibility of negotiating a settlement with a terrorist group, but then most of them aren’t looking for a negotiated two-state settlement, they want to see one state eventually controlled by the Palestinians (Right of Return) and it’s tough for me, at least, to conclude that anti-Semitism doesn’t play a big part in their thinking.

A cynical argument is advanced that in order for Israel to be considered a democratic state, they have to allow Palestinians to achieve through fecundity what they can’t achieve through military might, all the while ignoring the lack of democracy with the Palestinian territories (one questionable election of Hamas followed by cancelled scheduled elections does not a democracy make), and the high likelihood that a single state controlled by Palestinians would be a lot more like it’s undemocratic Arab neighbors than Israel.

I would like to see the complete destruction of Hama as a result of the current hostilities but this is too much for which to hope. It’s ironic, but given the opportunity to express themselves confidentially, I’m sure that I would be joined by Egypt, Jordan and even Fatah. In fact the only nations in the region that hope otherwise are Iran and its vassal states of Syria and Lebanon.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Well, at least West Germany did and they have the Allies to thank, in great measure, for that. They also have the Allies to thank for the fall of the Soviet Union and the re-unification of East and West. I'm unaware of any "Ally Appreciation Day" celebrated in Germany but I don't consider the Germans to be ingrates as respects the mercy and assistance provided by the nations they sought to conquer.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

CI on the other hand just browses anti-Israeli and Left-wing blogs so he can regurgitate propaganda in these threads.

Jesus, you are a hypocrite, Finn. What do you browse but nothing. You're just one big mouthful of regurgitated propaganda. The USA would sell Israel down the river in a heartbeat if it wasn't part of its own nefarious ME schemes to rape and pillage.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

I notice that even you can't justify the killing of pregnant women and new born babies by the IDF, so you ignore it and pretend it never happened. That's par for the course.

What you were referring to are incidents that occur in the traffic back-ups that develop at IDF checkpoints.

They are tragic (as are all of the deaths in this insane conflict) but they are not frequent, as you would suggest, and it is a gross exaggeration to describe them as killings by the IDF. Between 2000-2006, 68 women gave birth at a checkpoint. 35 miscarried and 5 died in childbirth.

You conveniently leave out the fact that the IDF has found explosive devices in Red Crescent ambulances at these checkpoints, proving that there is not only an ulterior motive to Hamas braying about this issue, there is a reason they can't be allowed to pass by without inspection.

You also leave out the fact that in 2008 an IDF soldier who refused to allow a pregnant woman pass through a checkpoint and who gave birth to a stillborn, was relieved from his post and imprisoned.

Between 2000 and 2008, Palestinians carried out 147 suicide bombings in Israeli civilian centers resulting in 624 deaths and hundreds of injuries.

The majority of these were conducted by Hamas, and the rest by Palestinian Islamic Jihad. I don't recall you, with your high valuing of the sanctity of human life, ever condemning these attacks, and if you did, I'm certain you didn’t do so with the vehemence you reserve for Israel.

This is why the IDF has established checkpoints. No terrorist attacks, no checkpoints, and yet you declare you don't deny Israel the right to defend itself...just not if it means Palestinians might die.

As for the targets of Israeli bombings in the current hostilities, it's interesting how much media attention has been given to the Israeli bombing of a Palestinian Rehab Hospital, but so little was devoted to the fact that two days ago, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency found that Hamas was storing rockets in one of their schools.

The IDF warned the Rehab Hospital it was targeted and the staff was able to evacuate the building. No one was killed.

Basman Alashi director of the Rehab Hospital claims the Red Cross collaborated with Israel to destroy it! God only knows what Hamas was using the Hospital fo,r but you needn’t think Israel holds the moral high ground, or even that Israelis have a basic level of humanity to realize they are not going to target a Hospital simply to wreak havoc in Gaza and kill civilians. They know that the stories of this bombing will outnumber, in the international media, stories like the one about Hamas storing rockets in a UN school by a ratio of 10 – 1. They know that probably the most effective weapon the Palestinians have in this conflict is the bias they have cultivated in the media. They would be insane to target a hospital unless it they believed it was a true military target.

It is amazing how critics of Israel are so willing to totally ignore the evidence that Hamas is using civilians as human shields, storing military equipment in schools and hospitals, encouraging civilians to remain in buildings the IDF has warned have been targeted, moving their fighters around Gaza in ambulances et al. Although their supporters in the West deny it to be the case, Hamas isn't ashamed to admit it:

Quote:

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri went on Hamas TV July 14 to defend the terror group’s policy of keeping civilians in war zones and said they were leading them to their deaths, according to Palestinian Media Watch.
Zuhri said that those criticizing the high civilian death toll were “defeatists” and should look at the history of Algeria.
“In 1945, in a single day in Algeria, 45,000 Algerians died,” Zuhri said. “It wasn’t described in Algeria’s history as forsaking the blood of the Algerians.”
The Hamas spokesman said they weren’t leading their population to execution, but then he made a slip of the tongue.
“We’re leading them to death — I mean, to confrontation,” Zuhri said.

Source

It's good to see that not all liberal media outlets have jumped on the anti-Israel train:

Quote:

The government is using its Palestinian population as human shields, plain and simple. After a ceasefire of 6 months, they most certainly knew that firing rockets into Israel would stir retaliation. Opponents to Israel argue that the naval blockade against Gaza provoked the violence from the other side. But what is Israel supposed to do while its enemies stockpile weapons--sit back and wait to be attacked? Who can blame Israel for acting defensively when the number one goal of Gaza's terrorists is to deny Israel's right to exist and is willing to do anything to wipe her away? I'd be a bit paranoid if I were a member of the Israeli government.

Huffington Post - Kohn

[/quote]

Quote:

The clip shows Hamas urging its citizens, including children, to go to a house to act as "human shields," after Israeli security forces, in an effort to limit civilian casualties, called the owner to inform him that the house was to be bombed.

Anyone who is interested in the Israel-Hamas conflict needs to watch this video. It's sickening.

...it occurred to me that the video really demonstrated that to support Hamas over Israel, you have to leap through a moral looking glass, where right is wrong and wrong is right.

Huffington Post - Bard

It's frighteningly surreal but here is how the Public Security Ministry carries out it's public mission:

Quote:

The Palestinian Authority (PA) and Hamas are urging residents not to respond to the IDF's warnings to evacuate towns in Gaza close to the Israeli border on Thursday, as the IDF gears up for a possible ground offensive.
Hamas's "Public Security Ministry" in Gaza issued a statement praising "martyrs" who have become human shields on Thursday, as part of the ongoing Hamas campaign to undo Israel's humanitarian efforts to save civilian lives.

"Our mighty people presented a unique example of steadfastness and perseverance, and are not affected or fearful from the psychological warfare from the Occupation," Hamas boasted. "They did not respond to calls from the Occupation to leave their homes - they stayed there and did not abandon them."

"We applaud, in particular, the strength of our residents in border areas, and their refusal to leave their homes and their land," they continued. "They converge around our heroes in the Palestinian struggle."

Hamas has encouraged civilians over and over again to become human shields as an "effective strategy" in the PR war against Israel.

Source

Incredibly, Max Fisher in Vox while admitting Hamas hides rockets in schools, makes the argument that Israel doesn’t have to bomb them:

Quote:

Here's the thing, though: while incidents like this force Israel to decide between bombing civilian structures or allowing Hamas to use those structures as rocket storage depots, it does not actually force Israel to choose to bomb civilian buildings. It is entirely within Israel's power to not bomb civilian buildings.

Vox

Sure it can leave them be and wait for them to be fired into Israel with the intent of killing its civilians. It can hope that the Iron Dome will take them all out, but that defense system is not 100% effective. So far it has been very effective and Israelis have been lucky (in part because rather than encouraging them to stand their ground and get destroyed by a Hamas rocket their government issues warnings as quickly as possible and encourages them to take shelter.)

Here's the thing Max, eventually Hamas is going to get lucky or Israeli luck is going to run out and the rockets will serve the deadly purpose Hamas intends for them. Can you imagine being the parent of a young child blown to bits by a Hamas rocket and learning that your government could have destroyed perhaps the very weapon that killed your child but chose not to because it followed the inane advice of Max Fisher?

1 Reply

@wmwcjr,

wmwcjr wrote:

Some individuals are more enlightened than us benighted souls.

Indeed, and they are only too happy to tell us.

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@JTT,

JTT wrote:

You're sure voluble about things that you are no expert on, MiT.

How about pointing us to your threads where you exhibit how you are, in your own words, the worse critic of your country?

JTT wrote:

You're sure voluble about things that you are no expert on, MiT.

How about pointing us to your threads where you exhibit how you are, in your own words, the worse critic of your country?

Oh, you're just pissed off because she skewered you with that well turned phrase:

Quote:

...mentally he's locked into this mental prison.

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@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Jesus, you are a hypocrite, Finn. What do you browse but nothing. You're just one big mouthful of regurgitated propaganda. The USA would sell Israel down the river in a heartbeat if it wasn't part of its own nefarious ME schemes to rape and pillage.

That's rich

Your favorite post (other than the ones limited to brilliant insults) is to provide us with cut&pasta from some loon's propaganda rag..

We've already discussed Chossudovsky and his Global Research, how about one of your other favorites: Alison Weir and her penetrating If Americans Knew

Ms. Weir once described the founding of Israel as a holocaust which was an interesting choice of words and clearly not selected lightly.

Like you, David Duke (of KKK fame) is a fan of Weir, as is Hesham Tillawi who hosts an anti-Semetic cable TV show called "Current Issues." Weir was a guest on Tillawi's show as was Duke, and other reknown anti-Semites such as Willis Carto, Mark Weber, Edgar Steel, and Bradley Smith. She's also pals with Ashahed Muhammad author of Synagogue of Satan and on line correspondent for the Nation of Islam's Final Call. Weir certainly runs in interesting circles.

In 2009 she published several articles alleging that Israel was harvesting the organs of Palestinians. One was entitled "The New Blood Libel?"

In 2011, after three Israeli children were killed in their home by Palestinians, Weir wrote essentially an apologist's article in which she insinuated the parents were Jewish fanatics who believed "the killing of non-Jewish infants is religiously permitted, and sometimes mandated.”

She is president of the Council for the National Interest (CNI) which claims to work for "Middle East policies that serve the American national interest," or more accurately, that are anti-Israel. Past and present members have a history of anti-Semetic comments:

Co-found Rep. Peter McClusky (R-Ca) at an address to Willis Carto's Institute for Historical Review (IHR), the premier Holocaust Denial organization in the world, in whiich he referred to the extermination of 6 million Jews during WWII as the 'so-called Holocaust."

Abdurahman Alamoudi, a member of the CNIF Board of Directors, declared at a 2000 rally against Israel, held across from the White House: "'Hear that, Bill Clinton! We are all supporters of Hamas. I wish they add that I am also a supporter of Hizballah." He was telling the truth. Mr. Alamoudi was sentenced to 23 years behind bars for conspiring to provide financial aid to terrorist. He pled guilty.

Former president Eugene Bird in an interview with CBC charged that Mossad had encouraged and participated in harsh treatment of Abu Ghraib prisoners. CBC later publicly stated that there was no evidence of Israeli involvement in Abu Ghraib.

Weir's criticism of Israel is most often outrageous and crosses squarely into the realm of anti-Semitism. She runs with a crowd of fellow travelers who despise both Israel and Jews in general.

And in true loon fashion, she also uses yellow backgrounds at her website

What other hateful dreck to you plan on regurgitating?

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

They are tragic (as are all of the deaths in this insane conflict) but they are not frequent, as you would suggest, and it is a gross exaggeration to describe them as killings by the IDF. Between 2000-2006, 68 women gave birth at a checkpoint. 35 miscarried and 5 died in childbirth.

Calling the deaths of 35 babies and 5 women as killing by the IDF is not an exaggeration. It's a deliberate policy of intimidation and brutalisation by the IDF. That's just the figure of pregnant women/babies deliberately killed by neglect. There are other people in need of medical attention deliberately killed by delays at checkpoints. Not to mention all the life saving drugs, drugs with no ulterior purpose, that are deliberately refuse entry into Gaza.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
The Palestinian Authority has tried peaceful negotiations and that hasn't changed the current land arrangement of the nation of Israel either.

Unfortunately the Palestinian version of peaceful negotiations involves trying to kill the children of the opposing negotiators.

The Palestinian Authority has done no such thing.

Strange how Israel is always the one making genuine offers of peace, and the Palestinians are the ones who are always trying to murder children.

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@oralloy,

Quote:

Strange how Israel is always the one making genuine offers of peace, and the Palestinians are the ones who are always trying to murder children.

It is also interesting to note that the Israel does a remarkable job of protecting their children from would be murderers throwing over a thousand missiles at them armed with 600 hundred pounds warheads with ball bearings added.

The Palestinians on the other hand placed their children on top of military targets such as missile launchers in order to be able to made propaganda points over their deaths.

2 Replies

@BillRM,

As long as Israel is continuing to build illegal settlements on occupied land none of its peace overtures could be considered remotely genuine.

Far from protecting them, Israel does a remarkable job of killing children.

Quote:

Palestinian child death toll rises to 70 while 50,000 are now homeless as a result of Israel's air and ground offensive

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2698150/Exodus-40-000-civilians-forced-leave-homes-300-dead-Israel-vows-significantly-widen-ground-offensive-Gaza.html

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Noam says it as it is.

From the U.S. point of view, negotiations are, in effect, a way for Israel to continue its policies of systematically taking over whatever it wants in the West Bank, maintaining the brutal siege on Gaza, separating Gaza from the West Bank and, of course, occupying the Syrian Golan heights, all with full U.S. support.
Noam Chomsky

1 Reply

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