15
   

As A Wise Man, Umm, Guy, Once Said

 
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 Jun, 2014 09:56 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
You've not addressed it, just tried to lie your way out of it as usual. Ask yourself why I'm so angry if it's all made up. You may believe your own lies, you're that type, but I certainly don't.

There's a reason you and JTT still communicate, you're both the sorts of low lives who like to attack peoples children online.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 Jun, 2014 11:38 am
@izzythepush,
Izzy the compulsive liar: There's a reason you and JTT still communicate, you're both the sorts of low lives who like to attack peoples children online.

-----------------

How have you been, you old sod? Has Frank come to fill your spare bedroom yet or are you recruiting local talent?
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 Jun, 2014 12:36 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:
It is fairly clear though that France has, to varying degrees throughout the years, seen itself as a counterpoint to US influence, and that this (French Obstructionism ) has manifested in its foreign policy.

I agree there. It is a bias, but it's also a role, a potentially useful function, almost a niche market. Given that other nations in NATO tend to be uncritical
of the US FP, and given that the US--at times and on some issues--tends to behave in grossly egregious manner, the only nation that opens its mouth represents in fact a silent minority, or even a silent majority, as in the case of W's Iraq war.

There are ways to make this 'very special' relationship work, I think, if the French don't play this role too systematically indeed, but also if the US leaders and media refrain from shooting at the messenger with propaganda thickly layered with lies such as this one:

Quote:
3) They continued to sell Saddam weapons after the UN embargo of Iraq was put in place


This lie was part of a larger propaganda campaign against France, designed to MAKE YOU and other American BELIEVE that Chirac's opposition to the war was of no importance, credibility or validity. And many of you guys swallowed these lies hook, line and sinker.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 Jun, 2014 01:43 pm
@Olivier5,
We may not completely agree about the motivation of France's niche market, but it's understandable why a Frenchman might tend to see it in the best light while an American might not.

As for the weapons sales to Iraq, the statement in my original post, which you have quoted, is not accurate or fully substantiated, but whether it is a lie is questionable.

The following articles addressed the matter and are listed in order of reported certainty. It's not surprising that the Washington Times reports it as a certainty or that the New York Times doesn't even reference allegations concerning France.

The Washington Post reports on allegations; absence of solid proof, and the reaction of the French government.

If arms were sold, it is pretty clear that they weren't sold by the French government, however that government has fairly extensive controls (by US standards at least) over business in France and especially in terms of exports. It is possible that if the arms were sold by a French business, it would have been with the knowledge of the French government, It is a fact that the French were long term suppliers of weapons to Iraq, and worked with Russia to have the sanctions diluted.

Washington Times

Washington Post

NY Times

However, it does appear to be the case that there is no clear evidence that the arms were sold by a French arms merchant, or that if they were, it was with the knowledge and approval of the French government, and therefore I should not have worded my comment as I did, and probably not included it the list, regardless of wording.

I return though to my point that the list was not intended as an outline of alleged French perfidy. As a matter of fact, if the story about the arms sales was entirely true, I wouldn't take it as something much different from what a lot of Western nations are capable of doing or have actually done (including the US) so it wasn't intended to be a stinging "J'Accuse!"

Again, it, along with the other listed items, was intended to demonstrate that France's failure to support US actions should, in particular, not be seen as proof of US perfidy.
Olivier5
 
  4  
Reply Sun 22 Jun, 2014 07:41 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Look, neocons were dead wrong. They were pissed off at the French for telling them that they were dead wrong, and they summoned the mother of all character assassination campaigns against us as a result. All American newspaper bought into it, NYT included, and dishonered tbemselves in the process. And most Americans still believe the countless lies spread around during this campaign, you included, because it fits well with your prejudice. It's as simple as that.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jun, 2014 11:27 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Look, neocons were dead wrong


so were 99% of the journalists

so were 77% of the american people

and 99% of the people who had some power to shape public opinion who thought the neocons were wrong kept their mouths shut till long after it was too late.


This disaster had a lot of hands in the making.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jun, 2014 07:16 pm
@Olivier5,
Look, you're dead wrong, but I'm not going to argue with you about what my intentions were. I know what they were, you don't and that's as far I'm going to take it.

I acknowledged that there is no evidence that the statement is true, that it was wrongly worded and should not have been used at all. If it struck some personal nerve for you, I regret that too. There's nothing more to add on this score either.

I don't blame you for being pissed off about shoddy reporting that impugned your government, or stupid political stunts like calling French Fries, Freedom Fries, and if you want to take it as an attack against the French people then you shouldn't bat an eye if Americans take criticism or lies about their government personally too. If you intend criticism of the US government to imply criticism of people of the US, that's fine too, just don't object too loudly if you see it in reverse.

Sorry Olivier, but I don't hold your government in any higher esteem than I do my own, and I don’t think the actions of any government is necessarily indicative of the will, beliefs or attitudes of the people they govern. All governments, including both yours and mine, are capable of mistakes, lies, crimes, and perfidy. Some of the allegations that are made against the French government are without merit, and some of the allegations made against the US government are too, but not all of them are. There's nothing defensible about false allegations, but it's not like were discussing throwing mud at the Virgin Mary.

Just about every French person I came across in Paris in 1971 treated me rudely or worse and particularly when they found out I was an American. I didn’t get into a fight with three French college students because they criticized the American government, but because they kept going on and on at a party about how all American soldiers in Vietnam were “baby-killers “ I didn't stick around long enough to find the decent French that, intellectually, I know had to be living there and around the rest of the country. I booked it to London with a group of British musicians who were playing in the Metro and had had enough of Paris too. It may have only been a matter of luck, but I was treated a whole lot better in London than I was in Paris. So, yes I developed a prejudice as far as France and the French go. I know it’s based on a limited experience and shouldn’t be extended to all the people I didn’t come across, but I also know it wasn't in play here. If you don't believe it, that's fine too.

It's as simple as that.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 04:51 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Oh don't worry, I' m cool about this. History proved Chirac right. But let's call a spade a spade. These were not "unsubstantiated allegations" or "shoddy reporting". They were LIES, planted in the press on purpose, and relayed by the US press with due patriotism... Just like their lies about WMDs were not just shoddy intel. They were fabricated intel.

Until that lesson sinks in, you haven't understood much of the story, and remain morally ambiguous about it.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 05:12 am
@Olivier5,
don't get me started about Parisians...
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 05:17 am
@hawkeye10,
I agree. It was like an entire nation 'under the influence'...
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 05:18 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Look, neocons were dead wrong. They were pissed off at the French
for telling them that they were dead wrong, and they summoned the mother
of all character assassination campaigns against us as a result.
(Is that because of your DIS-HONORABLE default
on the money u borrowed from us during the First World War????
How much is that, with accrued interest as of now???)

JUST TO BE CLEAR:
I supported W 's invasion to overthrow Saddam
(except that it shud have been done SOONER,
but better late than never) and I RATIFY and re-affirm it now.

I live in a state of GLEE that Saddam has been overthrown and killed.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 05:27 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I didn’t get into a fight with three French college students because they criticized
the American government, but because they kept going on and on at a party
about how all American soldiers in Vietnam were “baby-killers “
I 'd have pointed out that killing baby communists,
like killing baby rattlesnakes, was a good thing to DO.





David
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 05:29 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
To be honest, I can understand that - the French and you.

When I visited with my friend Nancy's Musée Lorrain Palais Ducal, the guide told us in German not to speak loud in German when near to a certain group of visitors .... because the were WWI-veterans and might be offended. (Afterwards, we had had some drinks with them ... and discussed a lot subjects, in German.) [Years later, in the Musée de l'Ecole de Nancy, myy wife took a audio guide in English, because she doesn't speak a lot of French and they didn't offer them in German. After a few minutes, a young lady came, explaining her/us the main features in German ...])

I've been in Paris twice before 1971 and some dozen times afterwards:
«On récolte ce qu'on a semé.» - "We reap what we sow."
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 07:28 am
Isn't France part of NATO? Haven't they lost lives in Afghanistan? It is not as though they are always against us and they were there after 9/11. Many countries/people did not agree with the Iraq nor understand the urgency of not waiting until the process of the weapons inspections and the UN vote played out. We were never in direct threat from Saddam Hussein, so it should not have been a direct US problem, so we didn't ever need to act on our own against the UN. Now it is a different story unfortunately, we created the mess going on right now or at least added to it by removing Saddam Hussein.

I just hope that we do not end up having mission creep. I hope all we do is provide support for the Iraqi army and advise for the government and security for any people we have over there in all this mess.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 09:07 am
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:

Isn't France part of NATO? Haven't they lost lives in Afghanistan? I
'Yes' to both.
In Afghanistan, they were/are part of NATO's ISAF as well as USA's "Operation Enduring Freedom". (And all fuel supplies in Kabul Airport and in Camp Warehouse are done by the France.)
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 10:54 am
@Walter Hinteler,
And indeed France was not alone in its opposition to the Iraq war. The German government was one the same wavelength. But for some reason the campaign of national character assassination focused on France only.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 11:20 am
@Olivier5,
Well, if they'd said "freedom sausage", no-one would have known if it was a Frankfurter, or a Brunswick sausage, or just an ordinary bratwurst.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 11:32 am
@Walter Hinteler,
People would have confused it with Monica Lewinsky.
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 12:29 pm
@izzythepush,
Now, that was just mean, besides, I don't think she's German.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Jun, 2014 02:00 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
But for some reason the campaign of national character assassination focused on France only.


Sadly, France has been despised and mistrusted for centuries. For example, at the beginning of the 15th century, Sir John Cornewaille, the tournament champion of Europe and soon to be one of the heroes of Azincourt, said: "We don't want to be like the French. Humping each other when a sheep is not available. So we must have women!"
 

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