15
   

As A Wise Man, Umm, Guy, Once Said

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2014 05:40 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
I think Finn is confused by the Austrian ancestry of King Carlos, who became the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V ...
Generally, there seems to be confusion about "Germany", the "German countries/states", and so on.

After the death of Frederick II (who was one of the most notable and intelligent kings and emperors and who stayed most of his reign in Italy/Sicily) in 1154, the German kingdom was divided between his son Conrad IV (died 1254) and the anti-king, William of Holland (died 1256).
After 1257, the crown was contested between Richard of Cornwall, who was supported by the Guelph party, and Alfonso X of Castile.

The Habsburgs came from what is now Switzerland. They got additional some land in southern Germany/Alsace by marriages/heritage.
Still being a minor earl, Rudolf I was unanimously elected as "King of the Romans". (The title used by the German king following his election by the prince-electors.)
When Rudolf I lent Austria, Carniola, Windic March, and Styria to his own sons. And with the "Treaty of Rheinfelden" he created in 1283 the fundament for the Habsburg countries in what later became the Austrian Empire, Austria-Hungary, Austria.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2014 05:43 am
I believe that Rudolph alleged that the sun shone out of his fundament.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2014 05:58 am
@Setanta,
That might well have been so.

The prince-electors, by the way, used as their herold the Burgrave of Nuremberg. The county (the Burgraviate of Nuremberg), actually just the "burg" (castle) in Nuremberg plus some fields outside Nuremberg, lost it's power completely when in 1219 Nuremberg became a Free Imperial Town - but was partitioned in twain, to form Brandenburg-Ansbach and Brandenburg-Bayreuth. And that developed later to what is known now as "Prussia".
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2014 06:01 am
I never trusted them Hohenzollerns . . . they spell things funny.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2014 06:19 am
@Setanta,
The (original) small Catholic Hohenzollern dynasty is headed by a prince (Karl Friedrich Emich Meinrad Benedikt Fidelis Maria Michael Gerold Prinz von Hohenzollern) who's an excellent (jazz) saxophone and guitar player and bandleader (Charly and the Jivemates)
0 Replies
 
lmur
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2014 06:49 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I was unanimously elected as "King of the Romans"

And well deserved if I may say so. Congratulations!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2014 06:51 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Coming back to Germany/Austria/Habsburg ...

After two Habsburg Emperors, Rudolph I and Albert, the Luxembourg dynasty supplanted that of Habsburg. For more than a century there was no third Habsburg Emperor.
In 1438 a Duke of Austria was once more chosen by the prince-electors, and from that date till 1740, when male heirs failed in the family, through all revolutions and transformations of Germany and Europe it remained a fixed rule that the German King and Roman Emperor should be a Habsburg or Austrian prince.
After the election of Frederick III in 1452, the dynasty came to enjoy such a dominant position among the German nobility that only one non-Habsburg was elected emperor in the remaining 354-year history of the Holy Roman Empire.

The Habsburgs' near monopoly of the imperial title, however, did not make the Habsburg Empire and the Holy Roman Empire synonymous.

The name "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation" (German: Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation, Latin: Imperium Romanum Sacrum Nationis Germanicæ) was used since 1474 but became only officially in 1512 (Diet of Cologne) instead of the previous Holy Roman Empire. (that was done mainly, because it had lost many of the Italian and Burgundian territories.)

In ended in 1803 resp 1806 and was followed by the German Confederation until 1866.

That was succeeded by
- in the South
the Austrian Empire, the Kingdom of Bavaria, the Kingdom of Württemberg, the Grand Duchy of Baden, the Grand Duchy of Hesse, the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg and the Principality of Liechtenstein,
- in the North
North German Confederation (the kingdoms of Prussia and Saxe; the Grand Duchies of Grand Duchies Hesse [only north of the Main River], Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Mecklenburg-Strelitz, Oldenburg, Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach; the duchies of Duchies of Anhalt, Brunswick, Saxe-Altenburg, Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Saxe-Meiningen; the principalities of Lippe, Reuss-Gera (Junior Line), Reuss-Greiz (Senior Line), Schaumburg-Lippe, Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt, Schwarzburg-Sondershausen, Waldeck-Pyrmont; the Free Hanseatic Cities Bremen, Hamburg and Lübeck.

And in 1871, we finally got "Germany".
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2014 10:32 am
@Setanta,
I readily admit to being confused by the family trees of European monarchs, and I'm sure that would include King Carlos, but I'm further confused about your reference to him. Where does he come into play in terms of the monarchs being discussed? (Not a challenge, just a question)
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jun, 2014 03:41 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Carlos, who is better known to history as the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V, is one of the most important figures in European history, a pivotal figure. He was a eligible for the office of Holy Roman Emperor because his grandfather had been the HRE. His grandmother, Mary of Burgundy, brought with her the Duchy of Burgundy, and therefore made him heir to the Low Countries, what we would think of as Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg and a wide swath of western Germany, as well as portions of northern France--France as we know it. He convened the Imperial Diet (the Diet of Worms) over which he presided and at which he hoped to arrest Martin Luther. He also subsequently waged the wars of the Reformation, attempting to extirpate Protestantism. He married his son Philip off to Mary of England. That lead Philip to decide that he had the right to the English throne, which was why he insisted that Elizabeth marry him, and launched the Armada--which was a more complex operation that one would know from reading English history.

In 1555, Charles, King Carlos, abdicated in favor of his son Philip, named for his father. (He abdicated various positions and titles piecemeal from 1554 to 1556.) However, the German electors were not going to elect some lunatic from Spain as the next HRE, no matter how many bribes were promised. Charles retired to a monastery and died three years later, although he continued to dominate his son and to correspond widely with supporters of the counter-Reformation throughout Europe. His legacy continued after his death.

Because he had inherited the Netherlands, after his death, his son Philip ruled there. To celebrate the event, they had a little friendly was with France, fighting over the city of St. Quentin. The French won, and the King, Henri, invited the "Spaniards" (we would thing Belgians and Dutch) to Paris for a big party. One of the "Spanish" heroes was William, the Count of Nassau (born in Germany, we would consider his a Dutchman). To honor him, the French king resurrected the principality of Orange in south central France, and conferred it on William, whose mother was descended from the then extinct princely family. So, he became the Prince of Orange, although he never really enjoyed his heritage. While in Paris, King Henri invited him to go hunting, and then blabbed about the plan that he and Philip had to slaughter Protestants in their respective realms. William said nothing, earning him the sobriquet of Guillaume le taciturne, William the Silent. William warned people when he got back home, and the plan was undone. It would be seven more years before the French moved against Protestants in France, and a rebellion began to fester in the Low Countries.

Philip put the rule of the Netherlands nominally under his bastard sister the Duchess of Parma, and Brussels filled up with arrogant Spanish grandees who sneered at the local nobility and lorded it over the locals, attempting to rule with a heavy hand. Philippe III of Burgundy had established the Order of he Golden Fleece, the most prestigious international order in Europe, and Charles V had, by his inheritance from Mary of Burgundy, become the leader of the Order. The Spanish grandees in Brussels included some members of this order, and they had sneered at the local nobility, and called them beggars. So they established a rival, satirical order, wo wore expensive gold chains like that used in the Order of the Golden Fleece, but with a wallet, begging bowl and foot stool suspended from the chain (the symbols of a beggar), rather than a fleece--it was mockery of Philip, and many of the Spaniards considered it to be lèse-majesté, then a capital offense. These tension and others escalated and eventually lead to the Eighty years war, which the Dutch fought to secure their independence. The rest of he Low Countries nominally remained a part of Spain, but were eventually handed over to Austria in 1714, after the War of the Spanish Succession. The Spanish Armada's principle mission was not to threaten England, but to deliver troops and artillery to the Low Countries to fight the seemingly endless rebellion. (The English have a habit common to all of mankind, of thinking themselves and their affairs to be at the center of the universe.)

The legacy of King Carlos, of the Emperor Charles V, spread widely throughout Europe, and lasted well after his death.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 30 Jun, 2014 04:09 am
I mentioned Carlos because you were asking about an Austrian connection with the Spanish monarchy--that was it. The Habsburgs were the hereditary Archdukes of Upper Austria, Lower Austria, Inner Austria and Further Austria, whether or not they got elected Holy Roman Emperor. They also ruled Carniola and Styria and the Tyrol in northern Italy. They were the hereditary kings of Hungary, and were usually the elected kings of Bohemia. Carlos didn't get to be the King of Hungary or of Bohemia, but he had a lot on his plate as it was.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jun, 2014 05:28 am
@Setanta,
Adding something about "Austria".
What became later Austria (=the various Arch-Dukedoms related to that name) was originally ... a Frankish Margraviate, which in 976, under the overlordship of the Dukes of Bavaria, was named Marcha orientalis or Bairisches Ostland or Ostmark (hence the German name 'Österreich' = Eastern empire).
http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w641/Walter_Hinteler/a_zpsd60eba4a.jpg
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Jun, 2014 05:47 am
They do, however, make good sausages and schnitzel.
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Sat 5 Jul, 2014 09:23 pm
A most enjoyable thread - thanks especially to Setanta and Walter. Fascinating historical anecdotes amidst occasional doses of pedantry; silly invective and name calling from some resentful trolls who can't keep up, and appear to bitterly resent the fact; flashes of amusing retaliattory invective and irony from ole Setanta who appears to enjoy it all.

I did enjoy the commentary about the multiple, complex (and sometimes contradictory) goals of Phillip's Armada and the narrow self-centered explanations of the English. That's the way the Jesuits explained it to us as well.

I've heard it attributed to Charles V that he spoke to god in Spanish; to men in French; to women in Italian and saved German for his horse.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Jul, 2014 09:32 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

They do, however, make good sausages and schnitzel.


Which are best served with delicious Regensburg mustard !
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 12:22 pm
@georgeob1,
The best German sausage I ever tasted was in a little hotel, restraint in Calhoun, county Illinois called Widdman's. But it still takes second place to a good Italian sausage.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 12:24 pm
@RABEL222,
Rabel the coward makes a run for it.
0 Replies
 
 

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