8
   

China Has an Invalid Government

 
 
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 04:36 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

It's a very recent example of clearly marked journalists being attacked by the security apparatus.

Nobody is claiming that China treats its protesters better than the West, but you can't turn a blind eye to your own country's wrongs.

Living in glass houses, stones, and all that.

America, as a matter of policy, guarantees the right to free assembly and speech. It's in the Constitution. There may be isolated examples of bad acts by local police, but, in general, we live up to it. The Chinese government does not tolerate peaceful demonstrations against the government, nor do they provide a right to free speech. This is an immense difference. Nowhere was this more evident than at Tienanmen Square.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 04:39 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

This was your sole response to my comment about what's happening in Hong Kong. It was not accompanied by a criticism of what China is doing. It sounds like you're saying, that the Chinese treatment of peaceful demonstrators is not so bad, and not different from the way America or Europe treat peaceful demonstrations, which is certainly false.
You should improve your mind-reading skill.

Besides that, I still don't get I'm an apologist for dictators.
One Eyed Mind
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 04:46 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter, you're avoiding the statement. If you truly weren't, why are you evading the statement? Prove it wrong, or prove them right.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 07:33 am
@Brandon9000,
Tiananmen Square was just over 25 years ago. The violence in Hong Kong was not as extreme as that against black protesters in America, and the press wasn't shot at.

Your constitution did not stop that happening.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  5  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 07:40 am
@Brandon9000,
Isn't this supposed to be a thread about China? Not a thread about China compared to America. Why do people like you have to turn it into a debate about America all the time instead of looking at something objectively.
One Eyed Mind
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 07:59 am
@izzythepush,
Why do you have to turn every topic into anger and fear mongering?

Izzythepushover.
Lordyaswas
 
  5  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 08:05 am
@One Eyed Mind,
Why do you attempt to derail every single thread you enter?

So very tiresome.

It's almost as if we have a spoilt child in our midst, or a hungry cat.
Always there, whining away in the background.

Maybe we should call you Tiddles or Junior.
One Eyed Mind
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 08:14 am
@Lordyaswas,
As I said before. I have thoughts for every topic - I am not like you who has only a few scopes. I can talk about anything from the subatomic scale to the cosmic scale. You can see it in my poetry and my masterful control over contrasts. This is truly the marksmanship of a genius that can see a target nobody else can see, and hit it. I put time and effort into my thoughts and my posts.

Though, I'd be more concerned with you being concerned about my honesty and integrity. I have contributed to this site in more ways than you'd care to admit. I have called everyone out on their facetious demeanor as well as their hypocrisy, and I have scientific breakthroughs under my belt, while all you have is over-used insults with zero contrasts, zero distinctions, zero dimension and zero correlation to the actuality that is life. People on here speak with their ego - I speak with my ethos. All great men speak poetically.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 08:21 am
@Lordyaswas,
Lordyaswas wrote:
Maybe we should call you Tiddles or Junior.


Or this.
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 10:39 am
@izzythepush,
Loveliest man in the world? he he he .....
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Oct, 2014 11:40 am
@Brandon9000,
That is your interpretation of 'govt', not theirs or mine.
Thus - Invalid premise.
xi jingping is a good leader imo.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2014 08:26 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Isn't this supposed to be a thread about China? Not a thread about China compared to America. Why do people like you have to turn it into a debate about America all the time instead of looking at something objectively.

I had no intention whatever of turning it into a thread about America, but Walter replied to my only recent post about Chinese actions in Hong King with an attempt to say that China was no worse than western governments, apparently including America:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, the Hongkong Government uses the same tactics as others used against the Occupy movement.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2014 01:30 am
@Brandon9000,
He has a point. The Hong Kong protests seem to be fizzling out without film crews being shot at.
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2014 03:39 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

He has a point. The Hong Kong protests seem to be fizzling out without film crews being shot at.

He doesn't have a point, at least as far as America is concerned. In America, there is an absolute right to protest peacefully. It's in the 1st Amendment to the Constitution. In China, or apparently Hong Kong, you are simply not allowed to hold protests against the government and are asked to disperse, if not arrested.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2014 03:43 am
@Brandon9000,
Rights to protest peacefully on paper don't amount to much when in reality film crews are deliberately shot at.
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2014 03:47 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
Rights to protest peacefully on paper don't amount to much when in reality film crews are deliberately shot at.

There have been thousands and thousand and thousands of protests in America in which the police did not intervene. China does not permit even peaceful protests against the government, nor do they permit free speech.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2014 04:23 am
@Brandon9000,
The protests in Hong Kong happened with very little fall out. In America a TV crew was deliberately targeted by the police.

That's what really happened.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2014 05:54 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

izzythepush wrote:

Isn't this supposed to be a thread about China? Not a thread about China compared to America. Why do people like you have to turn it into a debate about America all the time instead of looking at something objectively.

I had no intention whatever of turning it into a thread about America, but Walter replied to my only recent post about Chinese actions in Hong King with an attempt to say that China was no worse than western governments, apparently including America:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, the Hongkong Government uses the same tactics as others used against the Occupy movement.



Allow me to take the opportunity to agree with you...since there are so many areas where we disagree, Brandon.

I agree with you completely on this one.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2014 05:58 am
The "occupy movement" in America was not squashed by the police...or the government. It fizzled out because it has almost no leadership...such leadership as it had was almost absurdly incompetent...and nobody in the world could figure out what its intentions were.

The notion was fine...stick up for the many over the domination of the few.

But LEADERSHIP and DEFINITION are very, very, very important ingredients in a successful movement of that sort..and it was fatally deficient in both areas.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2014 06:11 am
Quote:
An investigation undertaken by law clinics at NYU, Fordham, Harvard, and Stanford has concluded, after eight months of study, that the NYPD abused Occupy Wall Street protesters and violated their rights on numerous occasions during the 2011 protests that radiated out from Zuccotti Park. Their report, Suppressing Protest: Human Rights Violations in the U.S. Response to Occupy Wall Street, was released today. It focuses on transgressions against international law.

What I found most arresting were its specific descriptions of alleged police misconduct. Scores of examples were offered. I've highlighted a selection of the ones that struck me as most credible, whether due to video footage of the incident or eyewitness testimony from a credentialed journalist, a designated legal observer, or a member of the legal team that put together the report (the report, linked above features links).

All of the following vignettes are quoted verbatim from its pages:

•A café employee at work near Union Square heard a passing Occupy march, went outside, and decided to begin filming after seeing police using what he felt was excessive force on protesters. Video evidence shows a white-shirted police officer pushing the café employee, camera in hand. It appears that the employee then began speaking to the officer while holding both hands in the air as the officer approached him. In an interview, the employee stated that he asked the officer why he was pushing and told the officer, "I'm just taking pictures." Video then shows the officer grabbing the employee by the wrist, and flipping him hard to the ground face-first, in what was described as a "judo-flip." The employee stated that he was subsequently charged with "blocking traffic" and "obstructing justice."
•Video shows that an officer drove a scooter at a crowd of people, including journalists and legal observers. The video then shows a legal observer lying on the ground screaming, his foot under the scooter. A second video shows the observer on the ground with his foot under the scooter. A third video shows that the observer kicked the scooter off or away from his leg, at which point officers dragged the observer several feet and began to cuff him. While he was being cuffed, an officer pushed the observer's face into the pavement by pressing his baton across the back of the observer's neck.
•A member of the Research Team observed an officer push and then throw a male protester into the air for no apparent reason as he walked, with many other protesters, near parked police scooters. The protester fell hard to the ground and was not arrested.
•A journalist stated that when he asked a non-uniformed officer for his name at a march, the officer pushed the journalist against a wall and held him there, threatening him that if he kept asking questions, he would get "his ******* ass beat." The journalist recorded interviews with two bystanders immediately after the incident. One bystander stated that he witnessed the officer using abusive language toward the journalist. He then told the journalist that the officer "put his chest in your face and pushed you around." The other bystander told the journalist that the officer "[got] up in your face and [shouted] at you. He pressed you against the wall of the supermarket."
•A journalist reported that an officer shoved a legal observer, also a retired judge, against a wall after she demanded that the officer stop beating a protester. The legal observer described the incident in an interview: "the officer said, 'Lady, do you want to get arrested?' And I said, 'Do you see my hat? I'm here as a legal observer.' He said, 'Do you want to get arrested?' And he pushed me up against the wall."
•Video shows that an officer approached a woman from behind and grabbed her by the strap of her backpack and her scarf for no apparent reason. The officer began to pull the woman towards him, and other protesters began pulling the woman away from him. The officer pulled at the woman by the strap of her backpack for approximately fifteen seconds, and appeared to possibly be choking her via the strap or her scarf. The protesters eventually pulled the woman away from the officer, and police appeared not to take any further action.
•Video shows that an officer punched a protester three times in the head and shoulder. At the time, the protester was in a soft lock, in which he linked arms with other protesters and sat in the street, and police were attempting to pull him away. The video shows that the officer tried to separate the protester several times by pulling him, but did not attempt any other methods before punching the protester.
•Video appears to show that police pushed a woman onto the hood of a car. The woman then fell to the ground and did not get up for several seconds. When she got up, the woman was holding a microphone; the video's caption states that the woman is a "news reporter." A news report provides a video of the same incident from another angle and identifies the individual who was pushed as a reporter for the Daily Caller.
•Lawyers representing a legal observer stated that eight officers "charged toward the legal observer, forcing his upper body onto the hood of a parked car, where they roughly grabbed his arms and forced them high behind his back ..." Before the incident, the legal observer had been recording the names of arrestees as they were led to a police van. At the time when he was arrested, the legal observer was speaking on his cell phone. The district attorney declined to prosecute the legal observer (who had been charged with disorderly conduct). Video confirms that the legal observer was speaking on the phone when an officer approached him. The legal observer walked toward the sidewalk, but the officer grabbed him and pushed him onto the hood of a parked car. Three other officers then came over and helped the officer cuff the legal observer. At one point, eight officers surrounded the legal observer.
•A journalist reported that an officer grabbed a protester "by the bottom of her throat and shoved her head against the hood of a car," and that another officer then "forcefully pressed her head against the car."
•A journalist reported that officers threw down and beat a photographer with batons, even after he had shown his press pass. The journalist reported that the photographer "yelled several times, 'I'm PRESS! PRESS!' yet was slammed on the head [with a baton] twice after he'd been thrown to the ground when the police shoved back the protesters." In the same report, the photographer stated: "there was another push from the police -- they saw me fall .... Just didn't care .... Then came the batons. I couldn't see if the people that were on top of me previously got hit at all but I certainly did, twice to the back and once on the head."
•A member of the Research Team witnessed a particularly violent arrest. A protester was observed lying on the ground, with a number of officers standing near. The protester stated that his shoulder had just been dislocated; the officers stated that they had called an ambulance, and were not going to handcuff the protester because of his injury. However, moments later, a second group of officers rushed in and aggressively handcuffed the protester. He screamed out in pain repeatedly and told the officers about his injury, asking them to be gentle. The officers responded by stating the he was "a liar," and they repeatedly intentionally pushed and pulled his injured shoulder. When EMTs did subsequently arrive, they inspected his shoulder, immediately removed the handcuffs, and put him in an ambulance for treatment. The individual's lawyer later stated that the protester in fact had suffered a broken clavicle, an extremely painful and serious injury.
•A member of the Research Team witnessed officers arresting a protester. A number of officers took the protester to the ground, and restrained him as he lay face-first on the street. The Research Team member heard the protester cry out, and knelt down to observe the arrest. She then witnessed an officer pull back his leg and kick the protester hard in the face. Another witness also saw the incident. Efforts to obtain the badge number of the responsible officer were thwarted by police, who refused to identify the officer and then took him away in a police van.
•Karen Smith, a retired New York Supreme Court judge, was working as a legal observer during the eviction of Zuccotti Park. She allegedly witnessed an officer throw a woman to the ground "out of nowhere" and hit her in the head. Smith stated that she then told the officer, "cuff her if she's done something, but you don't need to do that." The officer then, Smith said, asked her if she wanted to get arrested, at which point she stated that she was a legal observer. The officer again asked if she wanted to "get arrested," and pushed Smith up against a wall.


The report concludes that "In U.S. cities with significant abuse allegations and no major reviews of police practice, including New York City, independent official reviews are urgently needed to assess past practice ...." It's difficult to disagree with that conclusion, especially given all the video footage available to adjudicate some of the incidents at issue. More detailed reports about police misconduct during Occupy protests in other cities are on the way. Stay tuned.


http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/07/14-specific-allegations-of-nypd-brutality-during-occupy-wall-street/260295/
0 Replies
 
 

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