Foxfyre wrote:Alleged rape. Alleged beating. Alleged murder. Proof?
Alleged WMDs. Alleged democracy in the Middle East. Alleged liberation. Alleged strategy.
Left wingers! They can't answer the question so they just change it.
Mr. Hobitbob apparently has not heard of the "beheading" of the American civilian in Baghdad.
Well, we are supposed to be better than they are. It is clear that our horrible crimes in Abu Ghraib, because of the fact that we place ourselves on the moral high ground, are far worse than "beheadings" or "throat slittings" ala Mr. Pearl.
Somewhere, somehow, there will come a web site( after all of the court martials and the photos/videos are given in evidence) that will set up a series so that we can compare.
On one side:
A poor innocent Iraq made to lie on the floor and simulate homosexual sex.
On the other side:
The picture of a body which has fallen from the top of the WTC.
On one side:
The picture of an innocent Iraqi who has a dog collar around his neck.
On the other side, the picture of the journalist Pearl having his throat slit.
On one side:
The picture of a female American soldier pointing to the genitals of a group of hooded naked Iraqis.
On the other side, the picture of four bodies of Americans who were mutilated, fried and hung from a bridge.
On one side:
The picture of an innocent Iraqi cowering at the approach of an attack dog.
On the other side, a picture of an Italian worker who was brutally mangled and disfigured before being killed.
These matches can continue for a long time.
However, it will be fruitless.
It will be fruitless because we are the good guys. We never hurt people. None of our troops have any malevolence in them. We are Americans. All Americans are good. We tell the world we are good. Now we have been shown to be bad.
What is the solution?
It is easy but it probably won't happen.
The President of the United States is to personally take the responsiblity for these atrocities and offer to resign.
That is not as ridiculous as it may seem.
Why?
Because any crime committed by an American is simply unsupportable since we are the good guys.
That is not as ridiculous as it may seem.
Why?
The commander in cheif bears all of the moral responsibility for any of the acts of his underlings.
At last, we are slowly becoming a responsible country which recognizes true morality.
Any student of the Civil War knows that President Lincoln was complicit in the massive atrocities committed by the North throughout the Civil war.
He got away with it!
Any student of World War Two knows that FDR should have been impeached for his role in the massacre of thousands such as those in the firebombing of Dresden where many innocent Germans were roasted alive.
He got away with it!
Any student of World War Two knows that the abomination of the slaughter of tens of thousands of Japanese at Nagasaki and Hiroshima was decried throughout the civlized world after Truman ordered it.
He got away with it!
Any student of VietNam knows that it was the policy in VietNam ( ask Senator Kerry) to murder innocent civilians in the process of "pacification"
President Johnson presided over that slaughter.
He got away with it!
But now, the most sickening episode of them all--the physical and mental torture of poor innocent Iraqis by a president who must bear the full responsibility. He cannot push the responsibility downwards.
That is why President Bush must give a speech to the entire World- apoligize abjectly and then resign.
Sen. James Inhofe (R--Pissquick, OK)
Born a nasty moron and it's gone downhill for him ever since.
Now wait a minute, I have known Jim Inhofe for over twenty years. I knew him when he was mayor of Tulsa. I used to eat doughnuts with him in a little shop on Peoria Ave back then and we talked about all kinds of things.
I knew him when he ran for Congress and won the First District Seat. I followed his career as he became Senator and represented me and other Oklahomans in the most deliberative body of the US government and the first question that Jim would ask would be "What the heck does deliberative body mean?"
He is about as dim a man as you would ever meet. He has lucked and quirked his way through business and politics about as well as any other thick headed muddle mush could.
I don't believe he has a clue that what he says out loud will actually be listened to by other people. He is a dolt of amazingly broad dimension and will be re-elected by the term limit loving citizens of Oklahoma till he falls over.
And they deserve every minute of his leadership. They do.
Joe
Joe Nation wrote:And they deserve every minute of his leadership. They do.
Joe
As a friend of mine from Okmulgee would say if you mentioned the old boy's name:
"Who?"
I believe that Saddam Hussein's actually did all those horrible things in his (or had done on his orders) prisons because those that were there said so. By the same token I believe the Red Cross and the Taguba report of their investigations into the allegations. Saddam Hussein has yet to be put on trial, yet I already believe it, just like I already believe the current accusations.
There were some deaths involved in the abuse scandal (I forget how many, I think four) some were ruled to be natural death, some were ruled to justified and the rest were ruled to be homicide.
In any case, being stripped and humiliated and raped and mentally made to feel as if you were about to be electrocuted are against the guidelines that they "adhered" to regarding treatment of prisoners.
When Tuguba testified he said that lack of discipline, supervision and training was the fault of how the situation came about. Somebody higher up is ultimately responsible for this failure.
As for U.S. Sen. James Inhofe, his words speak loud and clear for himself for anyone with just at least a little conscience.
First, here is what some 'outraged' military types have said...
Quote:The Army Times and three sister publications, civilian-operated newspapers covering the armed forces, said in an editorial released Monday that responsibility for the scandal goes to the top of the command structure. 'This was not just a failure of leadership at the local command level,' the newspapers said. 'This was a failure that ran straight to the top. Accountability here is essential -- even if that means relieving top leaders from duty in a time of war.'"
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room//index.html
Second, here is what the family of the poor young fellow who was beheaded has said...
Quote:Michael Berg said he blamed the U.S. government for creating circumstances that led to his son's death. He said if his son hadn't been detained for so long, he might have been able to leave the country before the violence worsened.
"I think a lot of people are fed up with the lack of civil rights this thing has caused," he said. "I don't think this administration is committed to democracy."
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/103-05112004-298161.html
I wonder if now die-hard-righties will, like they are doing it on this forum, call Michael Berg and tell him that he is Saddam lover and terrorist supporter...
Maybe they can as well add that it's very interesting how he is quick in criticising US govt. but they don't see him criticising iraqi terrorists.
However, greatest odds are they will not understand single word of neither what family said nor what this post is saying....
At the very least, Mr. Berg, the father of the beheaded American, should, as a matter of balance, go onto O'Reilly's show for a dressing down regarding his lack of patriotism and his clear lack of love for America.
MyOwnUsername wrote:IHowever, greatest odds are they will not understand single word of neither what family said nor what this post is saying....
Truer words were never written . . .
Left wingers! They can't answer the question so they just change it.
Right wingers! They can't answer the question so they just change it.
"I do believe it is a violation of TOS to call another member an idiot however." foxfrye
Perhaps hobitbob has simply reached bowel tolerance with you and your right-wing agenda?
You deliberately post topics to cause controversy on this forum, you engage in bait-and-switch games, and you regularly give members backhanded insults and somehow, you have the audacity to throw TOS in hobitbob's face?
It might be interesting to learn how many times you've clicked the "Report" button when the fire is on your feet? Once? Twice? Twenty-five times? Of course, we'll never know, which is a shame.
There's a reason you travel through this forum with a vortex constantly swirling over your head. In your wake, you leave hostile feelings and bad vibes. In short, you're a troublemaker.
At this point, I don't much care if the moderators lock me out for posting this, or just lock this thread to protect you -- it needed to be said and I stand by my words and the sentiment behind them.
Quote:I do believe it is a violation of TOS to call another member an idiot however." foxfrye
Perhaps hobitbob has simply reached bowel tolerance with you and your right-wing agenda?
No, hobbit is in the wrong here, regardless of passion or frustration.
blatham:
I think your personal feelings are influencing your POV.
No, I shouldn't have called her an idiot. I must have been channeling Deanna Troi, and stating the obvious.
Nah, it isn't my personal feelings. As hobbit knows, I'm often frustrated by the same things which frustrate him. But just as we figure the US ought to abide by the Geneva Conventions, we ought not to excuse violations of our own (reasonable) codes.
