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Poll: 73% of Americans Say Iraqi Abuse "Unjustified"

 
 
Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 05:49 pm
hobitbob,

I can only be 7/8ths unamerican, the final 1/8 is Lakota. As a Lakota I want the facts. after all those worthless treaties how can I belive The Great White Father in Washington without unimpeachable corroboration? You know unretouched photos, handwriting analysis, polygraph testing, tape recordings, videos and every-last-damn-document before it's shredded. If I can have all that I'll do two things, share it with the world and consider the thought of the possibility of maybe thinking about it being factual. I have a low trust quotient for many reasons.

Sam
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 05:52 pm
Sam1951 wrote:
hobitbob,

I can only be 7/8ths unamerican, the final 1/8 is Lakota. As a Lakota I want the facts. after all those worthless treaties how can I belive The Great White Father in Washington without unimpeachable corroboration? You know unretouched photos, handwriting analysis, polygraph testing, tape recordings, videos and every-last-damn-document before it's shredded. If I can have all that I'll do two things, share it with the world and consider the thought of the possibility of maybe thinking about it being factual. I have a low trust quotient for many reasons.

Sam

Now now, Sam, we must all believe in the words of our God-appointed president or swim in the lake'o'fire (maintained by Bechtel). Wink
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 05:56 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Wiyaka wrote:
Quote:
I've shared my military experiences. Tag! You're it! Or are there none, simply armchair quarterbacking, to use an old chesnut?
The question still stands. You aren't afraid of a sweet, dumb Indian womanareyou?


Let's see...in 1990 my buddy and I went to the Army recruiter to join up and become tankers. But, when I was 11 I had surgery on both of my hips which left 3 titanium spikes in each hip which disqualified me from active duty. I tried to join up, but Uncle Sam had enough young men at the time. My father is a retired CMSGT, bith brothers served in the AF. One as an MP, the other as a medic. My grandfather was a Marine in WW2. My great grandfather was in the army. So, I have an extensive familial connection to the armed services.

I see no great dishonor in not serving in the military, there are plenty of great people who have never served just as there are that have. Bi-Polar bear and Hobitbob like to take glee in the fact that I haven't served because they are jerks. It does bother me a bit that I wasn't able to, but I became a teacher instead and I bet that my impact on civilization will be greater than either of theirs as I had influence on the young minds of tomorrow.

My actual experience? I spent 5 years in Weisbaden Air Base Germany, 2 Years at Offutt AFB, 3 years at Loring AFB, 4 years at Ramstein Air Base, and 5 years at Griffiss AFB.

I have many friends in the armed forces and I have had many fun and educational experiences.


Sticks and Stones Sgt. Rock....maybe if you didn't act like an armchair general, people would cut you some slack, but you have never been in combat and don't have a goddamn idea what it's like except for what you've been told, just like me and the other jerks. and we're not impressed with your rhetoric. So you hung around on base for a bunch of years, good for you I suppose.

As far as being a teacher and influencing young minds, the current state of literacy and EOG grades in this country, where most kids don't know how a bill passes congress, can't spell, and couldn't pick out your avatar in a line up, I woudln't brag too much if I were you. :wink:

You know the old saying, "those who can do....those who can't teach".
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 06:08 pm
I've only browsed the posts, but I am pretty sure that 27% would drop appreciably if the question was made more clear.

Many people, at the outset of this scandal, thought the naked pyramids were the worst thing. They didn't see anal probing and beatings.

Still bad, but the 'humiliation' wasn't as horrid as the sexual abuse.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 06:12 pm
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
You know the old saying, "those who can do....those who can't teach".


...and those that can't teach, complain.
0 Replies
 
Wiyaka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 06:34 pm
Quote:
Let's see...in 1990 my buddy and I went to the Army recruiter to join up and become tankers.


Let's see that would put you in your midtwenties or so, if my guess is correct, nothing like the picture on your avatar. :wink:

Quote:
But, when I was 11 I had surgery on both of my hips which left 3 titanium spikes in each hip which disqualified me from active duty. I tried to join up, but Uncle Sam had enough young men at the time.


Two points. A. The hip pins may have disqualified you. Not an issue.
B. If a recruiter told you that, he was trying to help you feel better about the hip pins OR didn't like something about you. They were recruiting.


Quote:
My father is a retired CMSGT, bith brothers served in the AF. One as an MP, the other as a medic. My grandfather was a Marine in WW2. My great grandfather was in the army. So, I have an extensive familial connection to the armed services.


To use the proper terminology, you were an "Air Force Brat" (AFB), not to be mistaken for an "Air Force Base." Being connected by family doesn't make you a member of the military.

Quote:
I see no great dishonor in not serving in the military, there are plenty of great people who have never served just as there are that have.


I won't argue that. Actually, I don't begrudge others that didn't go or get in, all they missed were the actual experiences we've spoken of. However, your experiences are second-hand, unlike those that have experienced it. Until you've actually lived through a war, you can't really say that you understand war.

Quote:
Bi-Polar bear and Hobitbob like to take glee in the fact that I haven't served because they are jerks.


No name calling. They disagree with you, but do it differently than I do.

Quote:
It does bother me a bit that I wasn't able to


I think you feel that for some reason you may feel that you haven't lived up to family or personal expectations, but that's only my opinion. Remember, I didn't live up to family or society's expectations. either, but I'm happy about that.

Quote:
but I became a teacher instead and I bet that my impact on civilization will be greater than either of theirs as I had influence on the young minds of tomorrow.


As a person that speaks before of thousands of people a year, I understand the impact a teacher can have, good or bad. All we can do is to give them the tools (knowledge) and they will do what they will as adults. I've had good and bad teachers. The ones that taught me things that I remembered were humorous, knowledgable, and undertanding.

One of my junior high English teachers watched what his students read in a study hall that he supervised. Those he observed reading various periodicals were noted. Those reading actually textbooks and doing homework were noted. He asked each of his English students to report on items read: a book chapter or article in their own interest areas. Amazingly, several gave wonderful oral reports on livestock breeding, horticulture, auto mechanics and the like. Mine? It was a boring report on a wonderful love story by Alexander Dumas called The Hunchback of Notre Dame." God,Quasimodo loved Esmerelda! It's only been 40 years, but I still remember that remarkable Creole teacher.

This was in a small, rural community in MN and being "mulatto" as he was referred to by the community, must have been hard for him. He was unique. Mr. Bundy influenced in the areas of toleration and respect with his knowledge and understanding. He was a single man and living in a predominatingly scandinavian community couldn't have been easy for him. However, his students adored him. He taught civil rights by practicing them.

Teachers like him are rare jewels. I think of him when teaching or speaking publicly in meetings, councils, etc. Like most Native American Elders, he'd pause before speaking. This allowed him and them to think of what and how to speak, clearly and precisely. I even try to copy this. It allows for clarity of thought and words. It also allows me to temper my words.


Quote:
My actual experience? I spent 5 years in Weisbaden Air Base Germany, 2 Years at Offutt AFB, 3 years at Loring AFB, 4 years at Ramstein Air Base, and 5 years at Griffiss AFB.


Were these years spent as a child or as a teacher? I'm just curious. it will help me understand you better.

Quote:
I have many friends in the armed forces and I have had many fun and educational experiences.
[/QUOTE]

Being raised as you were, that's fairly obvious. Most military children experience travel that many adults only dream of.

Now, I hope you understand that I'm not here to attack you personally. How can I? I don't know you personally, besides I prefer deal with people in a quieter, unlike some. Ask Husker. :wink:

To paraphrase an old saying, I may disagree with what you say or have said, but I've fought nearly to my death for your right to say it.
0 Replies
 
Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 07:06 pm
I have read all of the posts on this thread from the start. What have I learned? Most people are shocked, horrified and angered by the things our troops appear to have done. Some people stray from the issue and get into verbal sparing. (too bad) All of the people posting on this thread are intelligent and articulate.

Now I would like to make a statement. I did my 7 years in the Army National Guard, all good time. Unlike most women service members in the 80s and 90s I had the opportunity to train with infantry, in the field. During a night exercise a sixty began firing directly in front of me at a distance of about 3 ft. If it had been the real thing I would have been ground people. I was leading the patrol. When the Sgt. in charge told me the patrol was all KIA he also asked me who was to blame for this. My response surprised him. "My fault, I was in charge. No excuse" (Oh, I had no desire to get back at those who had theoretically wiped out my patrol.)

What does this all mean? To me it means that the Officer or NCO in charge is responsible for those under him/her. When they do something wrong it is my fault not theirs. For a grunt given a questionable order there are ways to avoid carrying out that order. Example: Sir, I don't quite understand what you want me to do. Would you please give that to me in writing. Here I have a pen and paper you can use. No excuse
No mater what "they" have done to our troops we are soldiers, we obey the rules. When you have the enemy at your mercy you do not seek revenge.

In another post I said that this whole fiasco made me ashamed to have been in uniform. Someone posted that this should have no effect on me as it was just a few bad apples. They just don't understand. Once you enlist you will always be a soldier in your heart. I am a soldier, they are soldiers, they did wrong. No excuse, not now not ever.

Sam
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 07:10 pm
Wiyaka wrote:
I won't argue that. Actually, I don't begrudge others that didn't go or get in, all they missed were the actual experiences we've spoken of. However, your experiences are second-hand, unlike those that have experienced it. Until you've actually lived through a war, you can't really say that you understand war.


Would you say Tom Clancy understands war? Bill Clinton? Dr. Chester W. Richards? A slew of historians and authors and experts on war would disagree with you. Personal experience is not necessary in understanding war.
0 Replies
 
Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 07:23 pm
McG

I'm not so sure about that. Books, movies, war stories told by combat vets provide vicarious knowledge, purely intellectual not experience. Until you see, first hand what enemy fire can do to people, your buddies. Until you smell it, touch it, taste it, feel it, and know what you want to do to every last one of those... but will not do because it is wrong, because you are a soldier not a common thug. Those people you mentioned may know warfare but not war.

Sam
0 Replies
 
Wiyaka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 07:45 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Wiyaka wrote:
I won't argue that. Actually, I don't begrudge others that didn't go or get in, all they missed were the actual experiences we've spoken of. However, your experiences are second-hand, unlike those that have experienced it. Until you've actually lived through a war, you can't really say that you understand war.


Quote:
Would you say Tom Clancy understands war? Bill Clinton? Dr. Chester W. Richards?
Quote:


Only in a second-hand way,like you, can they understand war. They haven't actually been under fire andexcept by critics, so they don't fully understand. They may understand it intellectually, however. Unless you live with the real fear of death 24 hours a day, understand the true meaning of the expression "the quick and the dead.", smell the stench of corditite in the air from explosions or your own weapon, have a friend die slowly in your arms, watch people (friends and enemies alike) be blown up in front of you or next to you and your thoughts are, "God! That was close. Too bad about them, but I'm still alive." and finally spend years living and reliving specific instances while awake and in your sleep, wondering why you lived and others you knew didn't...kid, you ain't been there.

Personal experience is not necessary in understanding war.
Quote:
Like I said, if you ain't been there, you don't know. Let's drop this depressing line of trying to defend yor views on this. Tell it to the survivors of those who have their names etched into "the Wall" in Washington. Maybe, just maybe you'll find some poor person that would put up with innane rhetoric.

Please remember my definitions of ignorant and stupid that I've used in other posts and may need to add to my profile. Please think about them seriously before responding to me in the future. Hopefully, I won't need to use them again.
0 Replies
 
infowarrior
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 07:11 am
Wiyaka:

I like your style.
0 Replies
 
Wiyaka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 11:30 am
infowarrior wrote:
Wiyaka:

Quote:
I like your style.


Aw gee! (blushing)Embarrassed Wait until you see me really unleash my tongue. Laughing As the saying goes, "You ain't seen nothin' yet." Just remember, I 'm a dumb Indian woman, dunno nuthin." Ask Husker. Lalalala.

Oh, by the way, when I calculated McG's age, it was for that ime in 1990. He must be in his mid 30's. How he never out grew the period of having all of the answers is beyond me. Shocked

Now, I have all of the right answers. Just ask the right questions!!
0 Replies
 
Wiyaka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 11:31 am
infowarrior wrote:
Wiyaka:

Quote:
I like your style.


Aw gee! (blushing)Embarrassed Wait until you see me really unleash my tongue. Laughing As the saying goes, "You ain't seen nothin' yet." Just remember, I 'm a dumb Indian woman, dunno nuthin." Ask Husker. Lalalala.

Oh, by the way, when I calculated McG's age, it was for that time in 1990. He must be in his mid 30's now. How he never out grew the period of having all of the answers is beyond me. Shocked

Now, I have all of the right answers. Just ask the right questions!!
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 11:41 am
Let's keep the talking about me to your PM's. If you want to talk to me, feel free to do so in the public forums, but, I would humbly ask you to refrain talking about me.
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 11:49 am
sort of like you calling me and hobitbob jerks, right buddy?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 12:00 pm
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
sort of like you calling me and hobitbob jerks, right buddy?


Precisely. Context is everything. You know that.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 12:12 pm
McGentrix wrote:
I spent 5 years in Weisbaden Air Base Germany,


I've served ... unvoluntarily (conscript, later twelve years naval alarm reserve) and I'm no teacher.

It's Wiesbaden, btw, McG.
(Wiesbaden Military Post, Germany, was created, btw, as the only post in Europe not under Headquarters U.S. European Command. The post included Wiesbaden Air Base, Lindsey Air Station and Camp Pieri.

Since more than a dozen years, it's Wiesbaden Army Airfield now.)
0 Replies
 
Wiyaka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 12:13 pm
Quote:
McGentrix wrote:
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
sort of like you calling me and hobitbob jerks, right buddy?


Precisely. Context is everything. You know that.


To quote an old aspirin tv commercial "Children,please! I have a headache!"

Youdon't want me upset, now do you. Evil or Very Mad
0 Replies
 
infowarrior
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 12:39 pm
Wiyaka:

Where abouts is Turtle Island? Sounds like the Alluetians.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 May, 2004 01:06 pm
In Ontario, at the head of Lake Superior, near Thunder Bay, I think.
0 Replies
 
 

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