W couldn't say, "I'm sorry."

Finn
You cant have not understood my post so I assume this was ment as a putdown. Im dissapointed in you. I thought you were more intelligent than that.

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Tarantulas wrote:

See? No apology at any time would ever be good enough for some people.

a sincere and timely apology that didn't have to be pulled out of him like an infected tooth would have been more than satisfactory.

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I'm sure the Iraqi people would rather Bush stick his apology where the sun don't shine and just take his brutal occupying forces home.

That's all they want.

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Craven

I just think that a general such as Karpinski knew full well that the abuse that went on in her prison "to soften up" prisoners before interrogation was illegal. It was not in her interests for it to take place. She must at the very least have had a tacit understanding from much further up the ladder that she was to allow it to continue. In fact she said she was obeying orders. Orders from whom? Sorry Craven, I just don't buy it that this sort of systematic abuse is the result of a few wayward grunts. It was a deliberate policy sanctioned at a very high level. Just as IRA prisoners in N Ireland were subjected to "degrading and inhuman" treatment...it was for a purpose, and ordered at government level. [but denied to this day]

Of course I don't have evidence. We never have enough evidence, especially when agencies are doing their best to hide it. The best we can do is look objectively at what is known, and make intelligent guesses to join up the dots and make the picture. Sometimes I admit its the wrong conclusion, but how else can we function? we dont have the luxury of all the evidence and historical context. We are condemned to live in the present.

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Quote:

I'm sure the Iraqi people would rather Bush stick his apology where the sun don't shine and just take his brutal occupying forces home.

That's all they want.

And that Ms Deepcups, is the best comment I've read on a2k for quite some time. Very Happy

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Craven de Kere wrote:

They were not intelligence officers, they were people who were helping the intelligence officers. Not really relevant but it does show that you could probably hammer out what is known before the speculation.

Tony Snow was talking about that this morning too. He said that the soldiers who were (in effect) the prison guards were getting "suggestions" from the intelligency guys about what to do. He characterized it as "a nod and a wink" and a request to "soften this guy up for us for tomorrow, okay?" Then afterward, the intelligence guys were giving good reports to the superiors about the performance of the soldiers, saying they were doing things exactly right because the prisoners were responsive and eager to answer questions. So the soldiers were getting positive feedback for what they were doing. And they had no procedures for how to run the prison, and the "Rules of War" and the Geneva Convention information wasn't posted anywhere (I guess they have standard posters for that stuff).

Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

Tarantulas wrote:
See? No apology at any time would ever be good enough for some people.

a sincere and timely apology that didn't have to be pulled out of him like an infected tooth would have been more than satisfactory.

First people are angry because he didn't apologize. Now they're angry because he did. Make up your mind.

Deecups36 wrote:

I'm sure the Iraqi people would rather Bush stick his apology where the sun don't shine and just take his brutal occupying forces home.

That's all they want.

No, what most of them want is for the Coalition to stay in Iraq until things settle down. They don't want their protectors to go home. They want al Sadr and his goons and the foreign fighters to be out of their lives so they don't have to worry about being able to walk down the street during the daytime.

It looks like somewhere there's a sound bite after all:

Quote:

We also talked about what has been on the TV screens recently, not only in our own country, but overseas -- the images of cruelty and humiliation. I told His Majesty as plainly as I could that the wrongdoers will be brought to justice, and that the actions of those folks in Iraq do not represent the values of the United States of America.

I told him I was sorry for the humiliation suffered by the Iraqi prisoners, and the humiliation suffered by their families. I told him I was equally sorry that people who have been seeing those pictures didn't understand the true nature and heart of America. I assured him Americans, like me, didn't appreciate what we saw, that it made us sick to our stomachs. I also made it clear to His Majesty that the troops we have in Iraq, who are there for security and peace and freedom, are the finest of the fine, fantastic United States citizens, who represent the very best qualities of America: courage, love of freedom, compassion, and decency.

Link

I think that was pretty much the perfect thing to say. I wonder if the Arab TV networks will pick up on the full text or just summarize it and leave out the nuances.

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

I just think that a general such as Karpinski knew full well that the abuse that went on in her prison "to soften up" prisoners before interrogation was illegal.

Indeed, thing is, she claims she was unaware of the actual abuse. Either way she's not "high up".

Quote:

It was not in her interests for it to take place. She must at the very least have had a tacit understanding from much further up the ladder that she was to allow it to continue.

Steve, you have a knack for making a bold speculation and appending that what you allege "must" the the "only" possibility.

This is not true, and there is, in fact, the possibility that she was simply incompetent and unaware. There is also the possibility that she was aware and sanctioned it herself.

It's to nobody's interest to have this kind of thing happen. The undesireable aspect of the abuses is simply not enough to declare your hitherto baseless speculation as what "must" have happened.

Quote:

In fact she said she was obeying orders.

Actually, she claimed she was not aware of the abuse.

Quote:

Sorry Craven, I just don't buy it that this sort of systematic abuse is the result of a few wayward grunts.

Neither do I. I think it was the result of many "wayward" grunts and the military culture that mitigates concern for humanity because of the nature of their employment.

Quote:

It was a deliberate policy sanctioned at a very high level.

You forgot "must be". ;-)

Steve, lots of people have convictions about apocryphal claims. Conviction alone does not fact make.

That is your opinion of what happened. You can't claim it IS what happened or that it MUST be what happened or that it can ONLY have been what happened.

Quote:

Of course I don't have evidence. We never have enough evidence, especially when agencies are doing their best to hide it.

We very frequently have evidence. In fact there's plenty of evidence leaked right now that makes your guess look farfetched to me.

Quote:

The best we can do is look objectively at what is known, and make intelligent guesses to join up the dots and make the picture. Sometimes I admit its the wrong conclusion, but how else can we function? we dont have the luxury of all the evidence and historical context. We are condemned to live in the present.

Well Steve, if your apparent certainty is an admitted guess I can respect that. But I will note that there are currently available facts that you don't seem to have researched.

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Tarantulas wrote:

Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
Tarantulas wrote:
See? No apology at any time would ever be good enough for some people.

a sincere and timely apology that didn't have to be pulled out of him like an infected tooth would have been more than satisfactory.

First people are angry because he didn't apologize. Now they're angry because he did. Make up your mind.quote]

please note the qualifiers timely and sincere and quit backpeddling, you're going to hurt yourself.

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Tarantulas wrote:

No, what most of them want is for the Coalition to stay in Iraq until things settle down. They don't want their protectors to go home.

Tarantulas, prior to these scandals there had been some polls indicating that the majority wanted the US occupation to end. There are conflicting ones and different angles for the questions that give different stats but it's not nearly as cut and dry as you make it out to be.

There was an indication that a substantial portion of the Iraqi population was getting tired of the occupation before all of these scandals.

I am aware of no polling data on this after the scandals broke. Care to provide the evidence for your claim?

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Er - as far as I can see it WAS on television - and there will be sound-bites for opponents to use?

Sounds like a reasonable speech to me.

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I didn't see it on TV yet but from what I read he reported that he'd apologized, I'm not sure if he did so on camera.

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Craven de Kere wrote:

I am aware of no polling data on this after the scandals broke. Care to provide the evidence for your claim?

I think the most recent polls were from March. I don't know of any that have been taken within the past few days. And I will look very carefully at the questions asked on any future polls in Iraq to see if they are fair.

National Public Radio is in the process (of course) of interviewing all the Arabs who have bad things to say about the US. The major network news types seem to be doing that too. But I saw a segment on CNN (I think it was) where they interviewed an Arab family about it. None of them seemed angry at all. They were trying to provide reasonable explanations for why Arabs felt the way they did and what could possibly be done to heal the damage. The father thought that an apology would go a long way because somehow the Arab culture puts a big value on that. So now I guess we wait for the reaction when (if) news of the apology makes it to the Middle East.

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hi steve- Thanks for the props. :wink:

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I would have thought the moniker was ironic. Guess not. Finn d'Abuzz

You weren't ironic on the other forum and you aren't ironic on this forum, so one might say at very least you're consistant. :wink:

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Since Bush took the credit for the "victory" in Iraq, one year ago, he must shoulder the blame. I remember how viciously President Clinton was pumelled by the fanatic religious right for engaging in consensual sex. No one was hurt by that. Now, President Bush has further distanced the USA from the rest of the civilized world by his inattention to the brutal atrocities committed in Iraq by the soldiers under his command. I have no doubt that the disgust of the American people concerning the tortures inflicted by our soldier jailers will result in a change of administration in November.

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mporter wrote:

Since Bush took the credit for the "victory" in Iraq, one year ago, he must shoulder the blame. I remember how viciously President Clinton was pumelled by the fanatic religious right for engaging in consensual sex. No one was hurt by that. Now, President Bush has further distanced the USA from the rest of the civilized world by his inattention to the brutal atrocities committed in Iraq by the soldiers under his command. I have no doubt that the disgust of the American people concerning the tortures inflicted by our soldier jailers will result in a change of administration in November.

I fear we have turned into a nation that will let that slide and reelect him.
The longer I live and the more people I meet the better I like my dog.

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This morning on NPR a reporter for the Washington Times balamed Clinton, sigh.

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JoanneDorel wrote:

This morning on NPR a reporter for the Washington Times balamed Clinton, sigh.

and how did they arrive at this? this should be good......

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NPR is now quoting reporters from the Washinton Times? My, how the once mighty have fallen.

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The Times reporter was being interviewed by an NPR new person. The exact statment as I remember it was, "this is Clinton's Army". I wish I could remember his name of the reporter but frankly I have to admit I usually do not give much credience to anything reported in the Moonie paper.

It is just one of those things you know like the people who still insist that Nixon did not wrong simply because that is how they want to think.

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W couldn't say, "I'm sorry."

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