AMERICAN CONSERVATIVES...on the wrong side of everything!

Liberals tried to pass a bill recently that said that guns cannot be sold at gun shows to people that don't even bother to present an ID. It was shut down by conservatives.

Why?

You sound like a reasonable person. What justification do you have for not atleast bothering to find out who the person is before being able to sell the gun to them. What if he is a criminal, wanted for a double homicide? Wouldn't you feel safer knowing that after he kills someone with the gun he bought at the gun show, the government would atleast be able to trace the gun back to him and stop him from doing it again?

Off topic, I am the proud owner of SUV (mazda tribute). It actually gets decent mileage though, I couldnt afford it otherwise. I've never been harrassed for it and I've never heard of anyone else being harassed for owning an SUV.

Yes. Sadly, we can only murder setanta but one time.

I have an idea that a silent majority has allowed a minority voice to influence and erode American normalcy(what ever that is determined to be).

I agree with Husker. I also would not call those in office today "conservatives." Neo-fascist scum comes to mind, but certainly not conservative.

Hobit - do you really want to live in a police state? It certainly does seem that way. As long as I am a law abiding, the authorities have no reason to know that I have a gun. How can having that information possibly help them?

Am I being obtuse? I don't think so but maybe you can point it out to me a little better, I am having trouble seeing your point.

As for "that's nice want a cookie" I was asked if I was ever harrassed about my car and I answered the question. You try to belittle people into beleiving the way that you do. I guess that makes you feel better. You keep saying that no one has suggested printing out the list. Yet the mere fact that there would be a list only leads one to beleive that at some point in time some one would print out that list and then there is no telling who would get a hold of it.

I kill stuff with my car everyday. Damn ants anyway.

saintsfan...meet hobitbob

Again, have the police harrased you over your car?


Your insistence on debating about a list, which no one but you has suggested, seems like all the indication you should need.


No, that was another example of your obtuseness.



You are free to believe whatever you prefer, no matter how incorrect.



You don't see the fallacy inherent in this argument?

So because I don't agree with you I am incorrect? Good argumentational skills.

Okay...let's see if I can sum up the results so far.

We are all pretty much in agreement that on the major issues that have faced this nation...American conservatives have always been on the wrong side.

I figured that with all the intelligent people posting here...that's pretty much the way things would go.


I'll keep tuned, just in case someone comes up with a major issue the country has faced where the conservatives have shown any disposition to be on the correct side of the issue.

saintsfanbrian and doglover together have hit on an issue I'd like to explore.

The reality (as I see it*) is that there are some on the right and on the left who want the government to control personal behavior by limiting the choices individuals have. (For the purposes of this discussion, I'm going to refer to a government that controls personal choices as authoritarian, and those who advocate this type of government "pro-authoritarian". Feel free to suggest a better term if one comes to mind.) Pro-authoritarian liberals want the government to decide what kind of car I can drive. Pro-authoritarian conservatives want the government to decide what kinds of TV programming I can watch. Pro-authoritarian liberals want the government to prevent me from building a factory on my land. Pro-authoritarian conservatives want the government to keep me from growing pot there. Pro-authoritarian liberals want the government to ensure that anyone can get an abortion anywhere, at any time and for any reason. Pro-authoritarian conservatives want the government to ensure that no one can get an abortion anywhere, at any time or for any reason.

If you differentiate between "liberal" and "conservative" based on what things they want the government to force people either to do or to not do, then you're really just looking at two sides of the pro-authoritarian camp. The other option--the other camp (and this is where I see myself as being)--encompasses those who advocate for a non-authoritarian government; a government that exists to promote law, enable commerce, and protect the nation and its people, but otherwise leaves those people unfettered and free to choose for themselves how best to live their lives.

The philosophy of the pro-authoritarian camp ultimately is based on the belief that most people will make bad choices when left to their own devices. The philosophy of the anti-authoritarian camp ultimately discards the question of the value of the choices individuals might make if left to their own devices, because they believe that denying individual liberty is a greater wrong than misuse of that liberty.

So... have I sufficiently muddied the waters here? Frank challenged us to compare liberals with conservatives and here I've gone and culled people from both of those categories and lumped them together and told you that they are really just different faces of the same coin. Personally, I don't care for either face.

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* Please assume this where I may have neglected to write it.

No, because you keep referring to a straw man argument you have set up you are wrong. If you agreed with me would not be having this discussion, correct?

saintsfabrian said

There is no necessary correlation between gun ownership regulations and 'police states'. See Canada, Britain, and many European states. This is a notion held dear by some in the US, but it has no empirical or logical basis whatsoever.

MAJOR ISSUES THE COUNTRY HAS FACED:

Revolutionary War.

Civil War.

World War I.

World War II.

The right to vote for women and blacks.

Safety net programs for people who need it.



Try to stay focused folks.

Wasn't there a recent topic about liberals vs conservatives?? Someone listed this handful of traits?? PDog said I was a mixed bag of Dog biscuits.

"Conservatives" favoured remaining a colony


conservatives favoured retainig the union. Hmm...one right so far...


Conservatives opposed entry


Prior to Pearl harbour, conservatives opposed intervention. After Pearl Harbour, a smaller number of conservatives opposed intervention.


Conservatives still oppose these measures


Conservatives claim that the only ones who need it are large corporations, Everyone else is just a slacker.

Can you support this?

Frank - You've sort of stacked the deck in your own favor haven't you? For example, if I point out that Republicans passed equal rights legislation over the efforts of Democrats to kill it, you'll come back and tell me that those were conservative Democrats, and liberal Republicans, right? Seems to me that--for the purpose of your argument--you've defined the term "conservative" to mean "someone who took the wrong side on any issue".

Or am I wrong? How do you define "conservative" for your purposes?

Probably not. Just being sarcastic.
Ther has been oposition to affirmative action, however......

Scrat, I thought the reversal of roles undertaken by both parties in the 1960s was common knowledge?