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AMERICAN CONSERVATIVES...on the wrong side of everything!

 
 
saintsfanbrian
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:15 pm
Thanks McGentrix, and might I add, that you can come to my range and shoot my guns whenever you want to. (bring your own ammo)
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:15 pm
Really Dys, "radical"?! Please.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:16 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Abortion: Take reponsibilty for your actions. If your old enough to have sex, you're old enough to raise the results. I haven't once seen a conservative try to tell someone they can't have any kids. Personally, I am for legalized abortion, except that the fifth one comes with a free tube ligation.

But for many, Abortion is the sole issue in their voting planner. I would actually add access to birth control information to the "abortion" rubric, since many of the same people who oppose abortion also oppose acess to contraception, thereby compounding the problem,.

Quote:
Homosexual Marriage: It's not solely an issue in the conservative camp. There are plenty of liberal democrats who want to keep a ban on Homosexuals marrying. Personally, I don't care what homosexuals do as long as I don't have to know about it.

The time for homopphobia has passed.

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Freedom of speech: Huh? Conservatives are against freedom of speech? Maybe hate speech or speech that can incite violence.

Ever heard of a chap named Scalia?

Quote:
Firearms: Is there something wrong with people owning guns? The only thing I see is that it is wrong to use guns in commission of a crime. I refuse to let some idiots derail my rights, or your rights.

But for much of the far right, whoever they may be, the issue is stretched to the point of insanity by opposing efforts to register and liscence firearm owners, or to make such records available to the authorities.

Quote:
If a village tries to raise my children, I may be able to use my guns :wink:
My children are MY responsibilty. I choose what school they go to, I choose the doctor they see, I decide what they can and cannot do until they are old enough to be able to make those decisions for themselves.

But if your decisons are harmful to them, your authority over them should be rescinded.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:19 pm
Quote:
Conservatives beleive that the individual has the right for themselves to decide what is best for them. They do not need the government telling them how to raise their children, what protection they are allowed to have or how to think.


Quote:
Can't one be a social liberal and an economical conservative? Yes they can but I for one am not.


saintsfanbrian - I am one of those economic conservatives, and social liberals. The problem that I find with many conservatives is that they talk about individual rights, and then favor anti-abortion laws and are against gay marriage. That does not compute for me. To me it is one issue. Individual rights are individual rights.

Some time back, I was on an interesting thread. The thread (as I remember) was about people who were pro-choice and anti-gun control. I have no difficulty with those two concepts. Again, it is all about individual rights. Funny thing though, is that one issue is a favorite of the left, the other of the right!
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:36 pm
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Some time back, I was on an interesting thread.

Yeah, that sounds about right. The last time we had an interesting thread around these parts was "some time back."
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saintsfanbrian
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:37 pm
Hobitbob - Most gun owners (the ones the bans would affect) already have the firearm licensed. It happens when you fill out the paper work at the gun dealer (or gun show) on ATF Form 4473. Also the dealer keeps a record of who they sold the gun to. As for making the list so that Authorities can have access to it, they already do with a warrent. I don't think the cops should just be able to walk in to a gun store or jump on line and find out that I own a fire arm. That is against my right to privacy. In fact, they have had rulings against this in the supreme court of Florida. http://www.palmbeachpost.com/politics/content/auto/epaper/editions/thursday/news_0426466cf02df1eb0017.html if you want the news article.

I have as much right to privacy if not more than a cop does to know that I (a law abiding citizen) have purchased a gun. You may not like them or want me to have them, but that doesn't mean you have a right to know that I do, until you do something that causes me to have reasonable fear for my families or my own safety.
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:51 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Quote:
Firearms: Is there something wrong with people owning guns? The only thing I see is that it is wrong to use guns in commission of a crime. I refuse to let some idiots derail my rights, or your rights.

But for much of the far right, whoever they may be, the issue is stretched to the point of insanity by opposing efforts to register and liscence firearm owners, or to make such records available to the authorities.

I would like to know what it is about gun ownership that causes people to haul out the term "far right" and then throw "insanity" into the same sentence. Can't there be differing viewpoints without the person on the other side being labeled as some kind of extremist?
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 12:58 pm
Tarantulas and Bryan, I am a gun owner, and I am obviously not a memebr of the far right, so you guys are wrong again.
To address Bryan's comment, if you own a weapon that may be used in commission of a crime, or that may be stolen and used in the commission of a crime, there should be a way to trace that weapon's ownership. WHile I am a firm believer in the right to privacy, I think that posession of a weapon is not information that should be unavailable to the police.
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Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 01:01 pm
Excuse me? What do you mean I'm "wrong again?"
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 01:03 pm
Quote:
I would like to know what it is about gun ownership that causes people to haul out the term "far right" and then throw "insanity" into the same sentence

You drew a conclusion that was completely unwarranted. You were wrong. It seems to be something of a hobby for you.
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saintsfanbrian
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 01:09 pm
Hobit - They can get it. With a Warrant. Why should we print out a list and give it to them every Monday? Wouldn't that make gun owners an unfair target of discrimination? The cops pull you over and automatically walk up with their guns drawn because you might[/b] have a weapon? Isn't that tantamount to profiling?

I am very happy that you are a gun owner. Again you can come here and we can go to the range together and have a good day out of it, but I think printing out a list and giving it to authorities crosses the line into invasion of privacy and is also against the 4th amendment:
Article [IV.]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 01:13 pm
saintsfanbrian wrote:
Hobit - They can get it. With a Warrant. Why should we print out a list and give it to them every Monday? Wouldn't that make gun owners an unfair target of discrimination? The cops pull you over and automatically walk up with their guns drawn because you might[/b] have a weapon? Isn't that tantamount to profiling?

I am very happy that you are a gun owner. Again you can come here and we can go to the range together and have a good day out of it, but I think printing out a list and giving it to authorities crosses the line into invasion of privacy and is also against the 4th amendment:
Article [IV.]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Are your legs not tired from jumping to all those conclusions? I never said that a list should be "printed out q monday,etc..." i said that records should be available. This means to law enforcement on some sort of database that may be accessed when neccesary. It would also allow owbership of firearms used on commision of a crime, or just plain found (I lived in Baltimre for three years, and folks find guns on the street there all the time! ) to have their ownership records traced.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 01:16 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Quote:
I would like to know what it is about gun ownership that causes people to haul out the term "far right" and then throw "insanity" into the same sentence

You drew a conclusion that was completely unwarranted. You were wrong. It seems to be something of a hobby for you.


This is what he was referring to.
Hobitbob wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Firearms: Is there something wrong with people owning guns? The only thing I see is that it is wrong to use guns in commission of a crime. I refuse to let some idiots derail my rights, or your rights.

But for much of the far right, whoever they may be, the issue is stretched to the point of insanity by opposing efforts to register and liscence firearm owners, or to make such records available to the authorities.


What exactly is he drawing a wrong conclusion about?
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Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 01:21 pm
About the assertion that a list should be made and handed out to officials on a regular basis.

There is a difference between having a database that can be accessed to trace a gun that's been found or to check the number for a suspect in custody and having a list of all gun owners sent to law enforcement officials.

Surely even you can see the difference McGentrix.
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saintsfanbrian
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 01:23 pm
When they start collecting lists of people "just in case" it bothers me. As for locating an owner when a gun is found, you must not be familiar with the fact that this can be done very easily. The authorities take the serial number and contact the manufacturer. Beleive it or not, they have a list of which gun store that gun was shipped to. Then the authorities contact the gun store and find out, low and behold, that I bought it from them 3 years ago. Then they contact me and I tell them that it was stolen from me on x day and here is the police report where you can find that I reported it. Why? Because I am a law abiding citizen. National databases are not going to protect many law abiding citizens. I am sure that some will be, but I would be willing to bet that the majority of people will be harassed because of it.

What I am saying is that the police can already trace a gun to its owner, with out some list being compiled in a national database. It might take an extra day or two but if they have the actual weapon in their possesion and it isn't still laying on the street, then they shouldn't care too much. And the likely hood that the pistol found laying on the street was actually used in a crime by the person who legally purchased it is slim. I am not saying that it won't happen, but I don't think it would happen as often as you would like for me to beleive.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 01:26 pm
You have a driving liscence, and your car is registered, is it not? A gun is almost as effective a weapon as an automobile.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 01:26 pm
I agree completely with saintsfanbrian on this. Even if he is a Saints fan...
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 01:27 pm
So, have people harrassed you because you have a car?
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saintsfanbrian
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 01:33 pm
Actually it is a more effective weapon. Many more people die each year in car crashes than are shot either accidentally or intentionally. (In 2001 42,443 poeple died by motor vehicle and 29,573 died by the use of a gun)
CDC Stats

My car is registered, and if the police want a copy of it they can get it, but there is not a list that is printed out daily, weekly, or even monthly. They use their computers and look it up. This is basically what they can do NOW to find out if I have a gun. When a law abiding citizen purchases a firearm, not only is their name put in a book but so are the thumb prints from both hands. Did you have to do that to get a car? No! If the authorities want to find out what guns are registered to me, they can come ask me, and if I want to tell them I will. If they have a warrant to search my house for a crime, I will gladly point out where I keep my pistols and rifles and shotguns. Right after I call my lawyer to make sure that everything is on the up and up.

As a matter of fact, liberals have harrassed me because I have a car. I have a jeep, and they accuse me of raping mother earth if[/b] I go off roading, or because I use gas.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2004 01:38 pm
saintsfanbrian wrote:
Actually it is a more effective weapon. Many more people die each year in car crashes than are shot either accidentally or intentionally.

My p[oint exactly.

Quote:
My car is registered, and if the police want a copy of it they can get it, but there is not a list that is printed out daily, weekly, or even monthly.

Again, you set up a straw man. No one has suggested such a thing. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Quote:
They use their computers and look it up. This is basically what they can do NOW to find out if I have a gun.

Not in every state.


Quote:
When a law abiding citizen purchases a firearm, not only is their name put in a book but so are the thumb prints from both hands.

Again, not everywhere, and not at gun shows in Colorado.


Quote:
Did you have to do that to get a car? No! If the authorities want to find out what guns are registered to me, they can come ask me, and if I want to tell them I will.

Precisely the reason the information should be in a database accessible to law enforcement.

Quote:
If they have a warrant to search my house for a crime, I will gladly point out where I keep my pistols and rifles and shotguns. Right after I call my lawyer to make sure that everything is on the up and up.

See above. I hope no one but you dies as you enact your Alamo fantasy.

Quote:
As a matter of fact, liberals have harrassed me because I have a car. I have a jeep, and they accuse me of raping mother earth if[/b] I go off roading, or because I use gas.

that's nice. Want a cookie? Rolling Eyes
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