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AMERICAN CONSERVATIVES...on the wrong side of everything!

 
 
Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 01:52 pm
Is there any possibilty that a moderator could split up the parts of this thread dedicated to gun control legislation and make them into a seperate thread. Thanks
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 01:52 pm
El-Diablo wrote:
Why would you need an AK-47? If a normal person bought it, the only reason would be for killing sprees. I could defend myself just fine with a 9mm. No one needs an Ak-47 unless you truly are just using as a "sport".

One possible reason would be to overthrow the government if it starts to stink too much. Check out the opening paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence.
0 Replies
 
Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 01:58 pm
Yeah, this way, they wouldn't have to send bombs over the mail or blow up a building in Oklahoma to overthrow the government. They could just buy a machine gun and go on a shooting spree.

I wonder how many extremist liberals are considering doing just that if Bush somehow get's reelected.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 02:02 pm
Centroles wrote:
Yeah, this way, they wouldn't have to send bombs over the mail or blow up a building in Oklahoma to overthrow the government. They could just buy a machine gun and go on a shooting spree.

I wonder how many extremist liberals are considering doing just that if Bush somehow get's reelected.

You asked for a rationale for owning an AK-47, and I gave you one.

Now, forgive me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be implying that only a kook would have this intention. If you believe this, then you disagree with the Founding Fathers who stated, when founding the US, that it is the right and duty of the people to alter or abolish governments which are irretrievably despotic. By the way, I do not believe that our present government fits that description in any way, shape, or form, but you never know about the future.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 02:03 pm
I think the main "theme" of the thread has been fairly well killed off Centroles--you boys just go ahead and have yer fun . . .

Thread diversion is an ancient and honorable on-line activity . . .
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 02:06 pm
Setanta wrote:
I think the main "theme" of the thread has been fairly well killed off Centroles--you boys just go ahead and have yer fun . . .

Thread diversion is an ancient and honorable on-line activity . . .

Well, back to the thread topic. What sort of person was it who didn't want the US to enter WW2. How did this break down among people on the right and the left?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 02:09 pm
I believe a single woman in the Congress voted against the declaration of war in 1941. She had also been among the few who had voted against the declaration of war in 1917. In time of war, "National" governments are habitually formed in England and the United States, with partisan politics left to the side. This, by the way, explains a good deal the support of Democrats for the Iraq invasion, which so many of them now seem to regret--they feel they were tricked.
0 Replies
 
Tarantulas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 02:19 pm
El-Diablo wrote:
Why would you need an AK-47? If a normal person bought it, the only reason would be for killing sprees. I could defend myself just fine with a 9mm. No one needs an Ak-47 unless you truly are just using as a "sport".

Why do you need a 9mm pistol? A .22 shoots bullets too and doesn't pollute the atmosphere with so much lead. In fact, let's ban all pistol calibers higher than .22. You don't actually NEED large caliber pistols.

I start getting nervous when I hear people telling other people what they don't NEED, especially when they don't know the other people or their circumstances. An AK-47 would work just fine for home defense. And any gun could be used for a "killing spree."

Here's a gun registration article for a little light reading until I can find what I was looking for:

Quote:
The Fifth Amendment, Self-Incrimination, and Gun Registration

by Clayton Cramer

A recurring question that we are asked, not only by gun control advocates, but even by a number of gun owners is, "What's wrong with mandatory gun registration?" Usually by the time we finish telling them about the Supreme Court decision U.S. v. Haynes (1968), they are laughing -- and they understand our objection to registration.

In Haynes v. U.S. (1968), a Miles Edward Haynes appealed his conviction for unlawful possession of an unregistered short-barreled shotgun. [1] His argument was ingenious: since he was a convicted felon at the time he was arrested on the shotgun charge, he could not legally possess a firearm. Haynes further argued that for a convicted felon to register a gun, especially a short-barreled shotgun, was effectively an announcement to the government that he was breaking the law. If he did register it, as 26 U.S.C. sec.5841 required, he was incriminating himself; but if he did not register it, the government would punish him for possessing an unregistered firearm -- a violation of 26 U.S.C. sec.5851. Consequently, his Fifth Amendment protection against self- incrimination ("No person... shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself") was being violated -- he would be punished if he registered it, and punished if he did not register it. While the Court acknowledged that there were circumstances where a person might register such a weapon without having violated the prohibition on illegal possession or transfer, both the prosecution and the Court acknowledged such circumstances were "uncommon." [2] The Court concluded:


We hold that a proper claim of the constitutional privilege against self-incrimination provides a full defense to prosecutions either for failure to register a firearm under sec.5841 or for possession of an unregistered firearm under sec.5851. [3]
This 8-1 decision (with only Chief Justice Earl Warren dissenting) is, depending on your view of Fifth Amendment, either a courageous application of the intent of the self-incrimination clause, or evidence that the Supreme Court had engaged in reductio ad absurdum of the Fifth Amendment. Under this ruling, a person illegally possessing a firearm, under either federal or state law, could not be punished for failing to register it. [4]

Consider a law that requires registration of firearms: a convicted felon can not be convicted for failing to register a gun, because it is illegal under Federal law for a felon to possess a firearm; but a person who can legally own a gun, and fails to register it, can be punished. In short, the person at whom, one presumes, such a registration law is aimed, is the one who cannot be punished, and yet, the person at whom such a registration law is not principally aimed (i.e., the law-abiding person), can be punished.

This is especially absurd for the statute under which Haynes was tried -- the National Firearms Act of 1934. This law was originally passed during the Depression, when heavily armed desperadoes roamed the nation, robbing banks and engaging in kidnap for ransom. The original intent of the National Firearms Act was to provide a method for locking up ex-cons that the government was unable to convict for breaking any other law. As Attorney General Homer Cummings described the purpose of the law, when testifying before Congress:


Now, you say that it is easy for criminals to get weapons. I know it, but I want to make it easy to convict them when they have the weapons. That is the point of it. I do not expect criminals to comply with this law; I do not expect the underworld to be going around giving their fingerprints and getting permits to carry these weapons, but I want them to be in a position, when I find such a person, to convict him because he has not complied.
During the same questioning, Cummings expressed his belief that, "I have no fear of the law-abiding citizen getting into trouble." Rep. Fred Vinson of Kentucky, while agreeing with Cummings' desire to have an additional tool for locking up gangsters, pointed out that many laws that sounded like good ideas when passed, were sometimes found "in the coolness and calmness of retrospect" to be somewhat different in their consequences. [5]

Unfortunately, Rep. Vinson's concern about law-abiding people running afoul of registration laws, while criminals run free, turned out to be prophetic. The same year as the Haynes decision, the New York City Gun Control Law was challenged in the courts. The statute sought to bring shotguns and rifles under the same sort of licensing restrictions as handguns. Edward Grimm and a number of others filed suit against the City of New York, seeking to overturn the city ordinance. Grimm, et. al., raised a number of objections to the law during the trial, most of which were based on the Second Amendment. After the trial but before the decision had been completed, the Haynes decision appeared. Grimm's attorneys pointed out the implications for New York City's gun registration requirement. The trial court held that the legislative intent of the law was:


that there existed an evil in the misuse of rifles and shotguns by criminals and persons not qualified to use these weapons and that the ease with which the weapons could be obtained was of concern... [6]
Yet on the subject of the Haynes decision:


In this court's reading of the Haynes decision, it is inapposite to the statute under consideration here. The registration requirement in Haynes was "...directed principally at those persons who have obtained possession of a firearm without complying with the Act's other requirements, and who therefore are immediately threatened by criminal prosecutions... They are unmistakably persons 'inherently suspect of criminal activities.'"... The City of New York's Gun Control Law is not aimed at persons inherently suspect of criminal activities. It is regulatory in nature. Accordingly, Haynes does not stand as authority for plaintiffs' position. [7]
In three pages, the court went from claiming that the registration law was intended to stop "an evil in the misuse of rifles and shotguns by criminals" to admitting that it was "not aimed at persons inherently suspect of criminal activities."

Nor is Grimm an exceptional case. A number of other judicial decisions have upheld gun registration laws, specifically because they did not apply to criminals, but only to law-abiding citizens. During the turbulent late 1960s, Toledo, Ohio, passed an ordinance that required handgun owners to obtain an identification card. [8] The plaintiffs attacked the law on a number of points, [9] including the issue of self-incrimination. Regarding the Fifth Amendment, the Court of Common Pleas asserted that application for a handgun owner's identification card (effectively, registration of gun owners) did not make a person "inherently suspect of criminal activities." (This quotation suggests the judge writing this opinion was aware of the Haynes decision, although not cited.) The court pointed out that unless the plaintiffs had been prohibited persons within the Toledo ordinance, the Fifth Amendment would have provided them no protection. Only criminals were protected from a mandatory registration law -- not law-abiding people.

Later that same year, in the Ohio case State v. Schutzler (1969), Gale Leroy Schutzler attempted to quash an indictment for failure to register a submachine gun in accordance with O.R.C. sec.2923.04, which required registration of automatic weapons. [10] At the original trial, Schutzler argued that the registration requirement violated his Fifth Amendment rights, based on Haynes. On appeal, the Court of Common Pleas did not agree with any of Schutzler's arguments, including his citation of the Fifth Amendment. Where the Haynes decision was based on the fact that Haynes was an ex-felon, and therefore his possession of a sawed-off shotgun was illegal, Schutzler was not breaking the law by possession; his only violation of the law was his failure to register the submachine gun and post a $5000 bond. [11] Had he been an ex-felon, the Haynes decision would have protected him. Because he was not a convicted criminal, he did not receive the benefit of the Fifth Amendment's protection.

In State v. Hamlin (1986), a case involving an unregistered short-barreled shotgun, the Louisiana Supreme Court refused to apply the Haynes precedent, because the Louisiana statute specifically prohibited the government from using registration information to prosecute convicted felons in possession of a firearm. The Louisiana registration law had been "sanitized" in a manner similar to the 1968 revision to the National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. sec.5801, which required that no information obtained from gun registration could be used against a person who could not legally possess a gun -- convicted felons could register their machine guns or short-barreled shotguns with complete confidence that they would not be prosecuted for illegal possession. [12]

If mandatory gun registration can't be used to punish ex-felons in possession of a firearm, what purpose does such a law serve? If mandatory gun registration can only be used to punish people that can legally possess a gun, why bother? Because of the Haynes decision, if we want to punish ex-felons who are caught in possession of a gun, there are only two choices available: We must either skip registration, so that we can severely punish gun possession by those who aren't allowed to own guns; or use the "sanitized" form of registration law -- where the criminal is guaranteed that gun registration can't hurt him, while the rest of us can be punished for failure to comply.

It sounds paranoid to suggest that gun registration records might be used in the future to confiscate guns -- although the second director of Handgun Control, Inc. has stated explicitly that mandatory registration is one of the steps towards prohibition of handgun ownership [13] -- but when we examine how the courts have crippled gun registration laws so that felons are effectively exempt, and only law-abiding citizens need to fear such laws, what other explanation can there be for the continuing plea for mandatory gun registration?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Clayton E. Cramer is a software engineer with a telecommunications manufacturer in Northern California. His first book, By The Dim And Flaring Lamps: The Civil War Diary of Samuel McIlvaine, was published in 1990. Rhonda L. Cramer is completing her B.A. in English.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Haynes v. U.S., 390 U.S. 85, 88, 88 S.Ct. 722, 725 (1968).

2. Haynes v. U.S., 390 U.S. 85, 96, 88 S.Ct. 722, 730 (1968).

3. Haynes v. U.S., 390 U.S. 85, 100, 88 S.Ct. 722, 732 (1968).

4. Haynes v. U.S., 390 U.S. 85, 98, 88 S.Ct. 722, 730 (1968).

5. National Firearms Act: Hearings Before the Committee on Ways and Means, 73rd Cong., 2nd sess., (Washington, DC, Government Printing Office: 1934), 21-22.

6. Grimm v. City of New York, 56 Misc.2d 525, 289 N.Y.S.2d 358, 361 (1968)

7. Grimm v. City of New York, 56 Misc.2d 525, 289 N.Y.S.2d 358, 364 (1968)

8. Photos v. City of Toledo, 19 Ohio Misc. 147, 250 N.E.2d 916 (Ct.Comm.Pleas 1969).

9. Photos v. City of Toledo, 19 Ohio Misc. 147, 250 N.E.2d 916, 923 (Ct.Comm.Pleas 1969).

10. State v. Schutzler, 249 N.E.2d 549 (Ohio Ct.Comm.Pleas 1969).

11. State v. Schutzler, 249 N.E.2d 549, 552 (Ohio Ct.Comm.Pleas 1969).

12. State v. Hamlin, 497 So.2d 1369, 1372 (La. 1986).

13. Richard Harris, "A Reporter At Large: Handguns", The New Yorker, July, 26, 1976, 57-58. A fascinating interview, Shields also describes the founder of Handgun Control, Inc., as a "retired CIA official" who was its first director -- without pay. For those people who regard the CIA as a secret government with nefarious motives, this will doubtless make them wonder about the origins of Handgun Control's current policies in support of prohibition of those rifles which are most necessary to restrain domestic tyranny.


Link
0 Replies
 
Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 02:20 pm
Perhaps history will show conservatives to be on the wrong side of certain gun legislations as well. Very Happy

Tarantulus, I heard about that case. That specific law was poorly formulated. The charge shouldn't have been failure to register a gun. The charge on which he should've been tried should be possessing a hang gun when not authorized to do so.

The example is outdated and moot. There are many instances of criminals being convicted of possessing a hand gun when they were not legally authorized to do so.

The second amendment is also moot for this proposal. The proposal doesn't in any way, shape or from limit a legal resident's ability to own a handgun.

Correction, history WILL show conservatives to be on the wrong side of certain perfectly reasonable gun legislations.
0 Replies
 
saintsfanbrian
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 02:25 pm
El-Diablo wrote:
Why would you need an AK-47? If a normal person bought it, the only reason would be for killing sprees. I could defend myself just fine with a 9mm. No one needs an Ak-47 unless you truly are just using as a "sport".


Yes, I enjoy sport shooting. Going out to a range and shooting at targets, or cans or pieces of wood or, like R. Lee Ermey, watermelons (I can't stand that fruit.) I also like reading about previous military history and the arms used in conflict and maintaining freedom or tyranny what ever the case may be. I am contemplating building a trebuchet in my back yard but I don't think the wife would like that too much.

Going on a "killing spree" as you like to call it has never entered my mind.

By the way. A normal person could fire almost as many shots out of a magazine fed pistol as they could from the modern AK47 that can be purchased legally in roughly the same amount of time. The time it takes to drop and reload a new magazine in to the gun is negligible if you know what you are doing.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 02:27 pm
If you build a trebuchet I will become your best friend in the whole wide world (I need a delivery system for the nukes I plan to aquire, we'll work out the range vs. blast zone discrepancies later).
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Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 02:40 pm
The key phrase being "the modern AK47 that can be purchased legally" saints. A normal person can only legally purchase semiautomatic weapons including semiautomatic versions of the AK47.

You're argueing that anyone should be able to purchase automatic weapons aka. machine guns.

The whole argument that having a national database is the first step to taking away our guns is absolutely idiotic. The supreme court would be legally bound to throw away any such attempt as it is blatant violation of the second amendment.

No antigun legislation can take away the right of a LEGAL resident to purchase or own a firearm without being thrown out almost instantly. No such legislations are being proposed or advocated by anyone in congress.


I reiterate.

Centroles wrote:
Saints and the others here, I have nothing against owning a gun. I've under supervision shot a shotgun, a rifle and various pistols. I am even considering purchasing a license and recieving training after starting medical school.

All I am argueing is that there is a lot of merit to many of the gun legislation that congress proposes. The NRA and republicans by instinctively opposing any resolution that has anything to do with guns, instead of considering the merits of it, are making this country less safe. They are giving a bad name to gun owners everywhere by doing so.

I've already shown you why many of the laws being proposed wouldn't restrict gun owners rights but would make this country safer. And all of you have failed to contradict any of my assertions. So please, just don't go along with the NRA on everything. Consider the legislation on it's own merits and if you agree with it, let the NRA know your perspective. They would certainly appreciate input from loyal members. Perhaps they as an organization would start to think more reasonably as well.

If we actually got some of these laws passed, they wouldn't restrict gun owners rights in any way. But they would make it harder for criminals to get guns and easier for law enforcement to find criminals. Gun crimes would go down as a result. And then many of these anti gun groups would go away too. There wouldn't even be a need for an NRA.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 02:41 pm
Trebuchets can heave big load a long distance, but if you plan to use one to launch even just a small, tactical nuke, in the misguided belief that you will be out of the blast zone . . . i think i shall not be there to hold your hand . . .
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 02:45 pm
Yes yes, we can work out the details later. But for now trebuchet buolding awaits.

My matricidal efforts shall be realized. Victory is mine!
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 02:45 pm
Look here...

http://www.eskimo.com/~verne/treb.htm
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 02:52 pm
Who does a nationwide database target?

How many criminals will register their weapon in this database?
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 02:52 pm
Setanta wrote:
I believe a single woman in the Congress voted against the declaration of war in 1941. She had also been among the few who had voted against the declaration of war in 1917.

You speak of Jeanette Rankin.
0 Replies
 
saintsfanbrian
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 02:55 pm
Wasn't it the supreme court that passed (said legal and constitutional) the prohibition of alcohol? And then later the repeal of prohibition. The government can - and does take away personal freedoms every day.

It is now illegal for me to ride in my car with out my seat belt. Who am I hurting if I get in a wreck when I am not wearing my seatbelt - or if I don't get in a wreck and I am just riding around minding my business.

Who would it hurt for me not to wear a helmet while riding on a motorcycle? Only if I get in a wreck but it wouldn't hurt the person that hit me.

The government is constantly taking away personal freedoms. We let them go little by little with out complaining. Eventually they will take away the big freedoms and then we will have a mutiny on our hands.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 03:03 pm
saintsfanbrian wrote:

It is now illegal for me to ride in my car with out my seat belt. Who am I hurting if I get in a wreck when I am not wearing my seatbelt - or if I don't get in a wreck and I am just riding around minding my business.

Who would it hurt for me not to wear a helmet while riding on a motorcycle? Only if I get in a wreck but it wouldn't hurt the person that hit me.


Do you mean othe than the taxpayers who would have to pay for your vent dependent carcass after your insurance had runout?
0 Replies
 
saintsfanbrian
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2004 03:08 pm
Um actually no one has to pay for crap if it happened to me. I have insurance and a DNR. I also think that insurance companies shouldn't have to pay if I don't wear my seatbelt for injuries that could have been prevented had I worn one. But again that is only good common sense. Something that is severly lacking in our country today.


I say we take the warning labels off of everything and let God weed out the weaker of the herd. Survival of the fitist and all.
0 Replies
 
 

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