26
   

Iran nuclear deal signed in Geneva

 
 
McGentrix
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2015 07:04 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

It's still usefull to state the truth, even if nobody listens... Israel started the 6-day war, and that's a fact.


I had to read back through this gibberish to see what you guys were talking about.

I am surprised Setanta hasn't come through and corrected all the misinformation in this thread.

Six-Day War ends

The Six-Day War between Israel and its Arab neighbors ends with a United Nations-brokered cease-fire. The outnumbered Israel Defense Forces achieved a swift and decisive victory in the brief war, rolling over the Arab coalition that threatened the Jewish state and more than doubling the amount of territory under Israel’s control. The greatest fruit of victory lay in seizing the Old City of Jerusalem from Jordan; thousands of Jews wept while bent in prayer at the Second Temple’s Western Wall.

Increased tensions and skirmishes along Israel’s northern border with Syria were the immediate cause of the third Arab-Israeli war. In 1967, Syria intensified its bombardment of Israeli settlements across the border, and Israel struck back by shooting down six Syrian MiG fighters. After Syria alleged in May 1967 that Israel was massing troops along the border, Egypt mobilized its forces and demanded the withdrawal of the U.N. Emergency Force from the Israel-Egypt cease-fire lines of the 1956 conflict. The U.N. peacekeepers left on May 19, and three days later Egypt closed the Strait of Tiran to Israeli shipping. On May 30, Jordan signed a mutual-defense treaty with Egypt and Syria, and other Arab states, including Iraq, Kuwait, and Algeria, sent troop contingents to join the Arab coalition against Israel.

With every sign of a pan-Arab attack in the works, Israel’s government on June 4 authorized its armed forces to launch a surprise preemptive strike. On June 5, the Six-Day War began with an Israeli assault against Arab air power. In a brilliant attack, the Israeli air force caught the formidable Egyptian air force on the ground and largely destroyed the Arabs’ most powerful weapon. The Israeli air force then turned against the lesser air forces of Jordan, Syria, and Iraq, and by the end of the day had decisively won air superiority.

Beginning on June 5, Israel focused the main effort of its ground forces against Egypt’s Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula. In a lightning attack, the Israelis burst through the Egyptian lines and across the Sinai. The Egyptians fought resolutely but were outflanked by the Israelis and decimated in lethal air attacks. By June 8, the Egyptian forces were defeated, and Israel held the Gaza Strip and the Sinai to the Suez Canal.

Meanwhile, to the east of Israel, Jordan began shelling its Jewish neighbor on June 5, provoking a rapid and overwhelming response from Israeli forces. Israel overran the West Bank and on June 7 captured the Old City of East Jerusalem. The chief chaplain of the Israel Defense Forces blew a ram’s horn at the Western Wall to announce the reunification of East Jerusalem with the Israeli-administered western sector.

To the north, Israel bombarded Syria’s fortified Golan Heights for two days before launching a tank and infantry assault on June 9. After a day of fierce fighting, the Syrians began a retreat from the Golan Heights on June 10. On June 11, a U.N.-brokered cease-fire took effect throughout the three combat zones, and the Six-Day War was at an end. Israel had more than doubled its size in the six days of fighting.

The U.N. Security Council called for a withdrawal from all the occupied regions, but Israel declined, permanently annexing East Jerusalem and setting up military administrations in the occupied territories. Israel let it be known that Gaza, the West Bank, the Golan Heights, and the Sinai would be returned in exchange for Arab recognition of the right of Israel to exist and guarantees against future attack. Arab leaders, stinging from their defeat, met in August to discuss the future of the Middle East. They decided upon a policy of no peace, no negotiations, and no recognition of Israel, and made plans to zealously defend the rights of Palestinian Arabs in the occupied territories.

Egypt, however, would eventually negotiate and make peace with Israel, and in 1982 the Sinai Peninsula was returned to Egypt in exchange for full diplomatic recognition of Israel. Egypt and Jordan later gave up their respective claims to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank to the Palestinians, who beginning in the 1990s opened “land for peace” talks with Israel. The East Bank territory has since been returned to Jordan. In 2005, Israel left the Gaza Strip. Still, a permanent Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement remains elusive, as does an agreement with Syria to return the Golan Heights.
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2015 10:00 am
@McGentrix,
From your own quote:

Quote:
n June 5, the Six-Day War began with an Israeli assault against Arab air power.
McGentrix
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2015 11:13 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

From your own quote:

Quote:
n June 5, the Six-Day War began with an Israeli assault against Arab air power.



Did you miss the entire preceding paragraph?

Quote:
Increased tensions and skirmishes along Israel’s northern border with Syria were the immediate cause of the third Arab-Israeli war. In 1967, Syria intensified its bombardment of Israeli settlements across the border, and Israel struck back by shooting down six Syrian MiG fighters. After Syria alleged in May 1967 that Israel was massing troops along the border, Egypt mobilized its forces and demanded the withdrawal of the U.N. Emergency Force from the Israel-Egypt cease-fire lines of the 1956 conflict. The U.N. peacekeepers left on May 19, and three days later Egypt closed the Strait of Tiran to Israeli shipping. On May 30, Jordan signed a mutual-defense treaty with Egypt and Syria, and other Arab states, including Iraq, Kuwait, and Algeria, sent troop contingents to join the Arab coalition against Israel.


oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2015 12:07 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
That's a lie.

No. Preemptive self defense is still self defense.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2015 01:09 pm
@oralloy,
Defense Minister Moshe Dayan described it as a "pre-emption war" (quoted in Oren, Six Days of War, p. 158).

Perhaps that's the same what you call "preemptive self defense".

Now, what is a pre-emptive war and on what basis or criteria can it be differentiated from other types of first strikes, such as surprise attack, preventive strike, or unintentional war?

And if it both aren't the same, what is a "preemptive self defense"?
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2015 01:33 pm
@McGentrix,
That talks about the cause of the war not the start of the war.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2015 01:58 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Defense Minister Moshe Dayan described it as a "pre-emption war" (quoted in Oren, Six Days of War, p. 158).

Perhaps that's the same what you call "preemptive self defense".

That's very likely.


Walter Hinteler wrote:
Now, what is a pre-emptive war and on what basis or criteria can it be differentiated from other types of first strikes, such as surprise attack, preventive strike, or unintentional war?

A preemptive attack is when someone is on the verge of attacking you, and you strike first.

A preventive strike is when someone is NOT on the verge of attacking you, but they might become a threat sometime in the future, and you attack them in order to prevent that future from coming to pass.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2015 02:49 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
Defense Minister Moshe Dayan described it as a "pre-emption war" (quoted in Oren, Six Days of War, p. 158).

Perhaps that's the same what you call "preemptive self defense".

That's very likely.
Since Israel officially called it differently - any idea, why they didn't (and still don't) use your invention?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2015 02:53 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
Now, what is a pre-emptive war and on what basis or criteria can it be differentiated from other types of first strikes, such as surprise attack, preventive strike, or unintentional war?

A preemptive attack is when someone is on the verge of attacking you, and you strike first.

A preventive strike is when someone is NOT on the verge of attacking you, but they might become a threat sometime in the future, and you attack them in order to prevent that future from coming to pass.
Thanks for adding that other expression and explaining it.
And how does that differ from the said pre-emptive war?
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2015 08:08 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
And how does that differ from the said pre-emptive war?


What will never differ is who won.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2015 11:14 pm
@McGentrix,
It doesn't change the fact that Israel started the war.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2015 11:46 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Defense Minister Moshe Dayan described it as a "pre-emption war" (quoted in Oren, Six Days of War, p. 158).
Perhaps that's the same what you call "preemptive self defense".

That's very likely.

Since Israel officially called it differently - any idea, why they didn't (and still don't) use your invention?

I'm flattered that you think that I invented international law. It is surely something that I'd be capable of doing, but actually international law has been around for some centuries now. I'm not that old (and frankly I'd have done a better job if I'd been the one to invent it).

Israel is very much using international law to justify their preemptive self defense.


Walter Hinteler wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Now, what is a pre-emptive war and on what basis or criteria can it be differentiated from other types of first strikes, such as surprise attack, preventive strike, or unintentional war?

A preemptive attack is when someone is on the verge of attacking you, and you strike first.

A preventive strike is when someone is NOT on the verge of attacking you, but they might become a threat sometime in the future, and you attack them in order to prevent that future from coming to pass.

Thanks for adding that other expression and explaining it.

Technically you added the expression, when you asked me to explain it. But you're welcome.


Walter Hinteler wrote:
And how does that differ from the said pre-emptive war?

Didn't I just explain that?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2015 11:48 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
It doesn't change the fact that Israel started the war.

Engaging in preemptive self defense does not make someone responsible for starting the fight.
snood
 
  4  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2015 11:56 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Engaging in preemptive self defense does not make someone responsible for starting the fight.


Goddamn, where have I heard that kind of sick insanity before...? Oh yeah, now I remember.... George Bush lying about Saddam Hussein's intentions so he could take this country to a useless, disastrous fiasco of a war that is still causing international pain.

Sick bastards talking about "I have to kill them because I know they're PLANNING on killing me". It's like Foreign Policy a la George Zimmerman.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 12:05 am
@snood,
snood wrote:
Goddamn, where have I heard that kind of sick insanity before...? Oh yeah, now I remember.... George Bush lying about Saddam Hussein's intentions so he could take this country to a useless, disastrous fiasco of a war that is still causing international pain.

Being mistaken about WMDs does not make someone a liar.

The Iraq war was not preemptive. That was a preventive war.

For the war to have been preemptive, Iraq would have had to be on the verge of launching a major attack against the US (as Syria and Egypt were on the verge of launching a major attack against Israel).


snood wrote:
Sick bastards talking about "I have to kill them because I know they're PLANNING on killing me". It's like Foreign Policy a la George Zimmerman.

Mr. Zimmerman shot someone who was on top of him and pummeling his head against the concrete.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  3  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 12:31 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Engaging in preemptive self defense does not make someone responsible for starting the fight.

Of course it does.

For you, Israel is always irresponsible, whatever it does, but for me it's just like any other country, with the same rights and the same duties. You start a fight, you bear responsibility for starting it. Simple.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 12:59 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Engaging in preemptive self defense does not make someone responsible for starting the fight.

Of course it does.

International law says otherwise.


Olivier5 wrote:
For you, Israel is always irresponsible, whatever it does, but for me it's just like any other country, with the same rights and the same duties.

"Irresponsible" doesn't mean "not culpable". It means "cannot be relied upon".

The term irresponsible is a modification of this specific definition of responsible:

1.4 Capable of being trusted
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/responsible#responsible__7

Anyway, the reason that for me Israel is never responsible for any wrongdoing, is because it is always very clear that Israel has committed no wrongdoing.


Olivier5 wrote:
You start a fight, you bear responsibility for starting it. Simple.

People who engage in preemptive self defense are not responsible for the fight that occurs.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 01:29 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Anyway, the reason that for me Israel is never responsible for any wrongdoing, is because it is always very clear that Israel has committed no wrongdoing.
Just re-posting this for not getting lost.

And I remember that after Israel's attack with white phosphor on the UN building in Gaza during the Israel-Gaza conflict at the start of 2009 ... we witnessed a rare and official admission by Israel of potentialy lethal wrongdoing.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 02:10 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I remember that after Israel's attack with white phosphor on the UN building in Gaza during the Israel-Gaza conflict at the start of 2009 ... we witnessed a rare and official admission by Israel of potentialy lethal wrongdoing.

No wrongdoing there. Sorry.

At least, no wrongdoing on Israel's part.
Walter Hinteler
 
  5  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 02:20 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

No wrongdoing there. Sorry.

At least, no wrongdoing on Israel's part.
And why did they say so? (Additionally, Israel has given the UN $10.5m to the UN to repair its Gaza complex.)
 

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