8
   

what is OBAMACARE'S Fatal Flaw?

 
 
Reply Fri 8 Nov, 2013 12:07 pm
I have believed it is that it makes the medical systems major problem (costs) worse, but is it that it is attempting to be yet another wealth transfer mechanism from the young to the old (the mandate that healthy youth need to be charged at least 1/3 of the highest rate even though they will not use anything close to that amount of health care )? is the scheme never going to even get off the ground because healthy youth dont buy in and pay up, thus making the risk pool much worse and rates for everyone unaffordable? I think the thinking was that youth will pay because they really want insurance, but this does not mean they are stupid enough to over pay for it, they have few assets to take so all they need to do is get care and then not pay the bill, no one can do anything to stop them from doing it under current law.
 
maxdancona
 
  6  
Reply Fri 8 Nov, 2013 12:13 pm
@hawkeye10,
If young people turned into old people somehow, then the system would be fair. In that case since the young people would know they would benefit when they needed it.

The system is only unfair because young people never get old.
Ragman
 
  3  
Reply Fri 8 Nov, 2013 12:28 pm
@hawkeye10,
What scares conservatives the most is that it might actually succeed! Got them peeing in their Depends!
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Nov, 2013 12:34 pm
@maxdancona,
Glad the young'ens are so happy with my Medicare.
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Fri 8 Nov, 2013 12:45 pm
@roger,
http://b-i.forbesimg.com/peterjreilly/files/2013/06/govoutofmedicare6.jpg
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Nov, 2013 01:37 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:

Glad the young'ens are so happy with my Medicare.

word is that almost all of the current new insurance is on Medicare, which is going to cost the government a ton of money which it does not have. however that is a very different issue from the Obamacare private insurance scheme not working due to youth not being stupid.
0 Replies
 
tsarstepan
 
  4  
Reply Fri 8 Nov, 2013 02:22 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

I have believed it is that it makes the medical systems major problem (costs) worse, but is it that it is attempting to be yet another wealth transfer mechanism from the young to the old (the mandate that healthy youth need to be charged at least 1/3 of the highest rate even though they will not use anything close to that amount of health care )? is the scheme never going to even get off the ground because healthy youth dont buy in and pay up, thus making the risk pool much worse and rates for everyone unaffordable? I think the thinking was that youth will pay because they really want insurance, but this does not mean they are stupid enough to over pay for it, they have few assets to take so all they need to do is get care and then not pay the bill, no one can do anything to stop them from doing it under current law.

Source it (the 1/3 higher rates and don't use some dubious conservative blog which actually doesn't refer to the text of the bill but spouts out the same rumor but in Fox News talking points). Or retract it. Spitting out rumors and unverified nonsense to cause fearmongering amongst the undereducated on this subject is repugnant.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Obamacare as I still don't believe at the end of the day, I'd be able to afford valid healthcare insurance with affordable deductibles and such.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Nov, 2013 03:04 pm
@tsarstepan,
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/115372/how-obamacare-changing-insurance-premiums-and-coverage

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-77972774/

http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303936904579175611438302596?mobile=y

New Republic is a liberal source that does not have the 1/3 figure but does admitt that Obamacare set out to shift costs to the young. sorry if the links are messed up, I am trying to do this on my phone.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Nov, 2013 06:46 pm
@hawkeye10,
from a non partisan foundation:

Quote:
One of the ACA’s much-discussed provisions aims to limit the
variation in health care premiums charged in the nongroup
insurance market to a maximum ratio of 3:1 for older adults
compared to their younger counterparts. Such age rating bands
would prevent insurers from charging an adult age 64 more than
three times the premium of a 21 year-old for the same coverage.
Considerable attention has been given to the potential for this
so-called “rate shock” in the nongroup insurance market once
provisions of the ACA are fully implemented in 2014. In particular,
the insurance industry has warned that the 3:1 age bands
included in the law will substantially increase premiums for young
adults. Some believe that a 3:1 ratio effectively forces younger
adults to subsidize insurance costs for older Americans. Others
warn the increases would make insurance unaffordable for many
young adults and families—pushing them out of the insurance
market altogether and leaving them uninsured. Instead, they
advocate for an alternative 5:1 variation in premium costs—which
is more closely aligned with the current premium variations by
age in today’s nongroup insurance market

http://www.rwjf.org/content/dam/farm/reports/issue_briefs/2013/rwjf404637/subassets/rwjf404637_1
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  3  
Reply Fri 8 Nov, 2013 06:53 pm
It's much better when the poor can't afford medicine except at emergency rooms for specific incidents and old people have to choose between medicine and food. Let's go back to that system. Heaven forbid that the young would help to care for their ancestors.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Nov, 2013 07:09 pm
@Brandon9000,
that Obama was the one to stick another knife in is a cosmic joke after all the youth did for him in 08. this shuck and jive "but if you cant afford it the government will pay for it" is not going to work because the young are not brain dead, they know that the government has no money and is charging huge bills to America's young people already, and is planning to add the new Obamacare expenses to the total.
0 Replies
 
Kolyo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Nov, 2013 07:38 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

It's much better when the poor can't afford medicine except at emergency rooms for specific incidents


Even then they might not be able to afford care. According to this CNN article hospitals are required the provide care, but the uninsured poor still pay...

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/07/opinion/carroll-emergency-rooms/

Quote:
That's the second and perhaps more misunderstood part of this emergency department misconception. The costs of treatment in the emergency room are not quickly dismissed or written off. You'll get that emergent care, but you'll also be charged for it.

And hospitals aren't going to let that go easily. A recent article in the New York Times detailed how Accretive Health, a medical debt collector, is using aggressive tactics such as confronting patients in their hospital beds to collect the money owed for even emergent care. The article also describes how collection agencies have long been used to go after patients after they've left the treatment facility. In some cases, patients were even confronted and stalled by debt collectors as they entered the emergency department on some later occasion so that the company could collect on old bills before more care was offered.

An even more recent story covered by Kaiser Health News and NPR reported on a family of four sued by its local nonprofit hospital. The family earned about $25,000 a year -- below the poverty line -- but the parents did not qualify for Medicaid in Ohio. It seems that the hospital had sued almost 1,600 people for unpaid medical bills from 2009 to 2011. Further, the piece reported, "[w]hile Ohio has a law that prevents foreclosures based on medical debt alone, it is legal for hospitals to garnish patient wages, attach bank accounts and get a lien on any future earnings, including from the sale of a house."
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Nov, 2013 08:38 pm
@Kolyo,
obamacare was paid for in small part by planning to cut subsidies to hospitals for treating the uninsured($11 billion/year), but there is no way in hell that washington could stand by and let hospitals close because of treating the uninsured. hospitals will treat, and they will be paid, whether the young sign up for over priced health insurance or not.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Nov, 2013 02:13 pm
@hawkeye10,
timely article today:

Quote:
Now, in a perverse twist, many of the poor people who rely on safety-net hospitals like Memorial will be doubly unlucky. A government subsidy, little known outside health policy circles but critical to the hospitals’ survival, is being sharply reduced under the new health law.

The subsidy, which for years has helped defray the cost of uncompensated and undercompensated care, was cut substantially on the assumption that the hospitals would replace much of the lost income with payments for patients newly covered by Medicaid or private insurance. But now the hospitals in states like Georgia will get neither the new Medicaid patients nor most of the old subsidies, which many say are crucial to the mission of care for the poor.

“We were so thrilled when the law passed, but it has backfired,” said Lindsay Caulfield, senior vice president for planning and marketing at Grady Health in Atlanta, the largest safety-net hospital in Georgia.

It is now facing the loss of nearly half of its roughly $100 million in annual subsidies known as disproportionate share hospital payments.
.
.
.
But experts and hospital administrators said it was unlikely that the federal government would make adjustments that would reward states that refused to expand Medicaid. And the health care landscape is changing so rapidly, they say, that the subsidies are crucial to keep going over the next few years

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/09/health/cuts-in-hospital-subsidies-threaten-safety-net-care.html?hp&_r=0

i dont agree, I think it will be politically impossible to cut this subsidy if the result is financial ruin for hospitals. this is going to be like the Feds QE programs, they keep on trying to cut funding but it is never a good time because the economy can not take the strain, if hospitals can not take the strain of Disproportionate Share Hospital program cuts then they will not happen.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Nov, 2013 11:57 am
@maxdancona,
Always gets a chuckle from me
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  2  
Reply Mon 11 Nov, 2013 10:51 pm
It is my understanding that under Obamacare, poor people will get subsidies for their insurance so that they will be able to get it. Under the present system, poor people get only emergency room care. This is a huge improvement. This is a colossal step forward. If there are things wrong with Obamacare, they can be fixed. But if it is eliminated, people without much money will be back to going to emergency rooms for single incidents or deciding between eating and medicine.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Nov, 2013 11:13 pm
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
But if it is eliminated, people without much money will be back to going to emergency rooms for single incidents or deciding between eating and medicine.
it is lunacy to make medical care a universal government funded entitlement before we figure out how to provide it in an efficient economically manageable fashion. we are a nation that is determined to eat olive garden every night when the funds available suggests that we should be eating Ramen a couple nights a week. if we dont like it we should figure out how to get a hold of more money, or how to satisfy our desires more cheaply.
RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Tue 12 Nov, 2013 10:56 am
@hawkeye10,
We could pass a law stating we have to eat at Mc Donalds twice a week. That ought to reduce the age that people live too by 10 years or so. Not only would that reduce health costs but cure the soc. sec. problem.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Nov, 2013 11:03 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
it is lunacy to make medical care a universal government funded entitlement before we figure out how to provide it in an efficient economically manageable fashion.


We did figure out how to do it in an economically manageable fashion. That's what the death panels are for.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Nov, 2013 11:55 am
@maxdancona,
end of life care needs to be rationed, if you have a better way to do it then let's hear it.
 

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