22
   

America Is Becoming Ungovernable.

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2013 07:01 pm
@Lordyaswas,
Lordyaswas wrote:
The picture he paints isn't a good one, and I wonder if anyone would care to comment as to whether he has actually put it across accurately.

He misses some important nuances on the internals of the Republican Party and is wildly inaccurate on his tangential gun rant.



Quote:
The ‘madness’ is, of course, the insistence of the Republican majority in the House of Representatives that they will vote to enable the federal government to pay its bills only if the White House agrees to suspend or scrap its national health scheme, which they loathe to the point of obsession.

While I'm sure that the Republicans would all like to do away with Obamacare if they could, most of them know that they can't. The reason most Republicans voted for this shutdown is because they feared that their political careers would be destroyed by Tea Party extremists if they did not go along with the Tea Party agenda. They would never have done any of this if they didn't fear the Tea Party.

Boehner has now largely wrestled the Republican position on the shutdown away from the Tea Party however. That is why most of the political talk for awhile has not been about "stopping Obamacare", but rather about "reaching a deal on general financial issues".

Unfortunately, Obama doesn't seem in a mood to strike a bargain on finances, so instead of everyone using this as an unexpected opportunity to come together and compromise on the budget, everyone is ultimately just going to pass a bunch of empty fluff that sounds good but does nothing.


Late update: The Tea Party is now making a last effort to seize control of the Republican position again. I don't see how they have any chance to succeed in blocking Obamacare, but time will tell I guess. My guess is that the Tea Party will falter again, and everything will revert back to the plan to pass a bunch of empty fluff that sounds good but does nothing.

I suspect that the Tea Party might be beginning to piss off mainstream Republicans. (If that idiom doesn't translate, "piss off" in this context means "greatly anger".)


Late late update (just checked the news before hitting "post"): Looks like the Tea Party faltered, and the plan to resolve this by passing empty fluff is back on track.



Quote:
They could defy the intentions of the Founding Fathers of the constitution as flagrantly as the gun nuts who exploit the 1776 provision for militias to bear arms, to enable modern mass murderers to equip themselves with machine-guns. But the Republicans are seized with a self-righteousness which is impervious to reason.

The author sounds like he is speaking from the perspective of a serf.

When free Americans exercise our rights, that is not an exploit. Nor does the exercise of our rights defy the intentions of the Founding Fathers.

And no mass murderers are being equipped with machine guns.

Use of the term "gun nut" is an indication that the author is lacking in intelligence.



Quote:
Yet it is still an extraordinary step to attempt to blackmail the Democratic administration into dropping a measure that became law in 2010.
As a host of commentators point out, if Obama gave way on this issue — as assuredly he will not — the road would be open for his congressional enemies to pull the same stunt about any other law they dislike.

This is a bit inaccurate. Defunding programs is a standard Congressional tool for blocking programs.

I am sure that Obama will not allow Obamacare to be defunded, but the tactic is neither extraordinary nor precedent setting.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2013 08:25 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

You really are a libling.


To whom am I libeling? My comment on a mea culpa is just requesting that you might like to admit that the current situation, in a global economy, is based on the war that Germany started, so the U.S. then became a world power economy after the smoke cleared. You might have liked President Reagan's speech to "tear this wall down," yet as a fiscal conservative he would have been with the Republicans today.

Did you not like my comment that Germany can invade countries again, "for all I care"? That again is not libel. One can only libel a person. Possibly a corporation, but not a country.

If you claim I am libeling, when I am not, then you are libeling my character. That is what libel is - character assassination. And, we see plenty of that on this forum. The problem might be that other posters treat you with proverbial kid gloves. Why? It is today in poor taste to be truthful with Germans, in my opinion, when one doesn't agree with them. Germany is supposed to be an ally. However, in my opinion, Germany is just as self-serving as it was back in the days of WWI; just today it finally has a productive economy, so it can afford to act friendly. By the way, Germany's economic success is greatly based on not having to have spent its finances on protecting it from the Soviets. The U.S. paid that bill! I just think Germany suffers from ingratitude, as most of Europe does, when it comes to admitting that the U.S. has protected them militarily for 50 years, which saved them from a big expense.

You seemed to dismiss my comment about the U.S. losing 500,000 men in WWII. That is offensive to Americans, in my opinion. Why should the U.S. continue to be concerned with the economies of ungrateful Europe? While some posters might think that the U.S. has a responsibility to the global economy, what responsibility did EU countries have to take on debt that they now don't want to have austerity to pay back. Why the double standard?

Again, who have I libeled? Libel has to defame one's character. Have I defamed/assassinated anyone's character? The mea culpa request offended you? Just a request. You don't like my bringing up your being a Catholic?

0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2013 08:39 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Despite your endless denials Ceili, you are clearly anti-American. That's fine by me. I much prefer your raw contempt to obsequious expressions of concern, and particularly when a more polished contempt underlies the concern.



Ya know. It gets old. "She doesn't like us. She Hate us. Poor us."
Spare me.
Here, Eric Idle says it nicer than I did.

Quote:

America the Half Beautiful


Carl Reiner on Twitter last week, worried about the current government shutdown, said this was cause for great concern in the world's leading democracy. And I thought, leading? Who's following? The answer would appear to be no one.

After one of the recent school shootings, a young mother said to me, "What must you think of us? You must think we're all mad." Mad certainly, but not all of you.

Half of America seems to be entirely enviable: movies, books, TV, arts, liberal democratic institutions, great centers of learning and research, gay marriage, social freedoms, etc., etc.

The other half does seem to be, well, nuts.

Currently you appear to be almost in a state of civil war. If one party can shut down the government, then the social compact to rule is broken. In most other democracies this simply could not happen. In the UK, for example, the government would dissolve and the prime minister would call for an immediate general election, which would be held within three weeks. (Yes, that quickly.) With your fixed terms you do not have this benefit. You must limp on to the next overlong election cycle and then waste a whole year of execrable television and billions of dollars on it. This is a very expensive and not very flexible system of democracy that no one else wants to follow.

The Mad Hater's Tea Party throws everything overboard, not just the tea. The captain, the crew, the ships dog... Pirates could hardly do worse.

It seems especially perverse that people purporting to be Christian, a religion that vows to help the poor and heal the sick, should be so violently against helping the poor and healing the sick. Followers of a religion that preaches forgiveness and turning the other cheek, demand the right for the outright insane to own more and more weapons. Nuts, I'm afraid.

Now some people get very angry when a non-American like me dares to talk about America. "Well, piss off then, go somewhere else," they say. Forgetting that we who live amongst you are the ones who like you the most, and if you don't listen to what we think, then the ostrichisation of America will continue. Bend over, head in sand, hand on heart, salute flag.

The great thing about America has always been your ability to rally round in difficult times, especially under attack and create new solutions to modern problems. Of your current state the Founding Fathers would be horrified and terrified. Nobody asked the Mothers. You may need to re-evaluate. The Constitution may need updating. It's not the Bible. Then, neither is the Bible.

We need you to prosper. You can rule the world, or you can ruin it. Time to wake up. We really need you.

Pretty please.


It seems that nothing will provoke you out of this us against them, continued battle from the civil war. The south v.s. the north. Liberals v.s. Conservatives. Where is the middle ground?
I come across strongly because it appears the only way to knock some sense into some of you is with a bat.
You and Foofie think the U.S. should tell the world to **** off. Go back to your pre-WWII isolationists ways.
Good luck telling that to Apple, Microsoft, Ford, and on and on and on. And before you think you're the biggest kid on the block,
think about your debt and the competition. Think of your Walmart's, who would they get to sew your cheap clothing. Or the Samsung's who are champing at the bit for world domination rendering it's high priced opposition to an expensive homegrown niche market. Like it or not, you are citizens of the world, not the rulers.
It's like half of you are hoping for a reason to use the bunkers and end of the world food stash. They welcome the chaos.
The video below is quite illuminating. I think he may be on to something. He's one of your own. An American.


Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2013 08:54 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

You really are a libling.


If you don't like my acrimonious reply, perhaps you should not reply to a post with:
"Indeed. And if .... and if .... and if .... and if then .... then ... "

In my opinion, the above reflects a disregard for any cause and effect.

The word "Indeed" really shows sarcasm, since it is followed by your apparent mocking, "And if .... and if .... and if .... and if then .... then ..." Or, perhaps, I am wrong, and you were just agreeing with me in a most deferent manner (with a slight bow of the head, like any well mannered European from the 20th century)?

My only question, at this point, is why do you inhabit this forum, since you are so above many/most of the other posters intellectually? Are you just using the forum to practice English, as you might be building cognitive reserve in your older years? If yes, I won't reply to your posts, since I do not want to be "used" by someone that has a self-serving reason to post, other than the intellectual repartee.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2013 08:55 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Foofie wrote:

So, regardless of how intertwined the global economy is, I believe one should not interfere with the U.S


They cannot, and that is what infuriates them.

Being relegated, in The Great Game, to owning Baltic Avenue without even a motel surely grates on those who once had the Monopoly.


Bingo!
0 Replies
 
Kolyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2013 10:03 pm
Here's another comment on the state of the country by someone who, some may argue, has no business sharing his opinion:

Quote:

San Antonio Spurs coach Gregg Popovich has never been shy about giving his opinion. He doesn't like giving his opinion very often, but he's not shy about it. In the past, the Air Force Academy graduate and four-time NBA champion has said he's spoken with his team about the 2012 election and that he tries to discuss things that are outside of basketball with them.

The latest non-basketball topic? The shutdown of the United States government, which has gone on for two weeks with Republicans and Democrats divided on several fiscal issues, and which has forced thousands of workers to be furloughed due to Congress' inability to reach a compromise. When asked whether he had discussed the shutdown with his team, Popovich said no, in part because the team's international players, "think (the United States is) pretty silly."

"We talk about a lot of things with the team," Popovich said. "We haven't gotten really specific with the shutdown... Most foreigners think we're pretty silly... and they're correct. It's children fighting over their toys, so to speak. It's got nothing to do with the public or what's good for the country. It's about winning and losing, and that doesn't do any of us much good. Hopefully they're going to get to some sort of agreement in the next couple of days that might be good for the American people.

http://sports.cbsimg.net/images/visual/whatshot/popovich_government_shutdown.jpg

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24083384/spurs-coach-gregg-popovich-blasts-government-leaders-over-shutdown


I read that at cbssports.com while checking scores. Totally bizarre.

So now NBA coaches feel the need to weigh in...

Who's next, Hamid Karzai?
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2013 10:29 pm
@Kolyo,
They are citizens too, and have every right to voice an opinion. The difference is that most of us don't have a media megaphone and don't get heard.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Oct, 2013 02:40 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
They cannot, and that is what infuriates them.

Being relegated, in The Great Game, to owning Baltic Avenue without even a motel surely grates on those who once had the Monopoly.


You keep telling yourself that Finn. What makes the world incredulous is that the country that gave us the Great Depression and the Global meltdown in 2010 wants to risk a third collapse.

It's all nations that are concerned, not just 19th Century Imperial powers but emergent nations like China. If you think you can default on China's debt without consequences you're living in cloud cuckoo land. At the very least, the next round of American bonds will not be received as well as the other lot. The price will go down, interest rates will rise. At the worst China may decide to seize American owned businesses in compensation. There's an awful lot of McDonalds and KFCs in China.

The 21st Century is the Chinese century, and you're just hastening your own demise.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Oct, 2013 02:56 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
My only question, at this point, is why do you inhabit this forum, since you are so above many/most of the other posters intellectually? Are you just using the forum to practice English, as you might be building cognitive reserve in your older years? If yes, I won't reply to your posts, since I do not want to be "used" by someone that has a self-serving reason to post, other than the intellectual repartee.
I'm a member here since October 18, 2002. I don't need this forum to practise English.
Mais, je ne voudrais pas plaindre, si tu repartirais ...
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Oct, 2013 04:17 am
L'espoir, il y a toujours l'espoir . . .
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Oct, 2013 06:46 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foofie wrote:
My only question, at this point, is why do you inhabit this forum, since you are so above many/most of the other posters intellectually? Are you just using the forum to practice English, as you might be building cognitive reserve in your older years? If yes, I won't reply to your posts, since I do not want to be "used" by someone that has a self-serving reason to post, other than the intellectual repartee.
I'm a member here since October 18, 2002. I don't need this forum to practise English.
Mais, je ne voudrais pas plaindre, si tu repartirais ...


a) I do not understand French. Speak in Spanish, if you like.
b) Who did I libel, and how?
c) The U.S. is an economic superpower by default, having been unscathed in WWII; therefore, the U.S. could make consumer goods before Europe/Japan/China could. So, the U.S. only became an economic superpower SERENDIPITOUSLY, and can ethically act self-serving in a global economy, in my opinion, where other countries get into high debt, and then bellyache over austerity measures. Why should the U.S. be the only adult in the room, so to speak?
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Oct, 2013 06:48 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

I do not understand


Fixed.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Oct, 2013 07:00 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
a) I do not understand French. Speak in Spanish, if you like.
Well, since you used a French word, I thought, you would.


Foofie wrote:
b) Who did I libel, and how?
As far as I remember (and additionally, I looked it up) I didn't assume such.
You should direct that question to the person, who did so.


Foofie wrote:
c) The U.S. is an economic superpower by default, having been unscathed in WWII; therefore, the U.S. could make consumer goods before Europe/Japan/China could. So, the U.S. only became an economic superpower SERENDIPITOUSLY, and can ethically act self-serving in a global economy, in my opinion, where other countries get into high debt, and then bellyache over austerity measures. Why should the U.S. be the only adult in the room, so to speak?[
Interesting, as already Pasteur said, La chance ne sourit qu'aux esprits bien préparés.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Oct, 2013 07:08 am
@Ceili,
Ceili wrote:

You and Foofie think the U.S. should tell the world to **** off. Go back to your pre-WWII isolationists ways.
Good luck telling that to Apple, Microsoft, Ford, and on and on and on. And before you think you're the biggest kid on the block,
think about your debt and the competition. Think of your Walmart's, who would they get to sew your cheap clothing. Or the Samsung's who are champing at the bit for world domination rendering it's high priced opposition to an expensive homegrown niche market. Like it or not, you are citizens of the world, not the rulers.


I heard my name called? The concept of "citizen of the world" is really a newish concept, in my opinion. I suspect it came into usage at the dawn of the nuclear age, when many people felt that we better learn to cooperate, or the end could be near. However, if the term "citizen of the world" is a term that is to be used today, then perhaps we should also discern that some citizens are more mature than others? Meaning, if EU countries get into debt, since they wanted to fund projects for a nicer country, and now are upset that austerity measures are in place, then not all citizens reflect the same maturity.

It might be surprising to many citizens of the world that the U.S. might be acting like Betty Boop and stamping her foot down in anger, at this point in history. Well, I just think that the U.S. spent a lot of shekels protecting Europe during the Cold War, so Soviet expansion would not engult all of Europe. Europe was able to rebuild, and industrialize without the added cost of protecting itself from the Soviets. So, I would like to see Europe give the U.S. a sincere thank you for that free ride, not to mention liberating it from Naziism in WWII. It would all be a non-issue, if Europe was just more productive, and then the U.S. would not be the economic superpower that it became after WWII, due to it fortunately being unscathed after WWII.

I think part of the attitude towards the U.S., from many non U.S. citizens, stems from the fact that many people see the U.S. as one big Grand Central Station, without an authentic American national identity, the way people see Germans, Irish, Spanish, Italians, etc. So, might seem counter-intuitive for the U.S. to act as though it was acting self-serving, as though it was just part of one's self-serving national character. Just my opinion. However, there really is an American character that shows itself, perhaps in the way of example, when the younger President Bush walked down some stairs in front of the UK Queen, and had to be told to go back up the stairs, to escort the Queen. In other words, the U.S. really is somewhat an antithesis of the courtly Europeans. And, very much an identity all its own.

I'll go now. Have a nice day.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Oct, 2013 07:13 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:


Foofie wrote:
b) Who did I libel, and how?
As far as I remember (and additionally, I looked it up) I didn't assume such.
You should direct that question to the person, who did so.




I thought you were claiming that I was libeling? Can you be more specific, since you had a comment about libeling. Making oblique comments adds little to the discourse.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Oct, 2013 07:15 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Qu'on voit danser le long des golfes clairs
A des reflets d'argent
La mer
Des reflets changeants
Sous la pluie

La mer
Au ciel d'été confound
Ses blancs moutons
Avec les anges si purs
La mer bergère d'azur
Infinie

Voyez
Près des étangs
Ces grands roseaux mouillés
Voyez
Ces oiseaux blancs
Et ces maisons rouillées

La mer
Les a bercés
Le long des golfes clairs
Et d'une chanson d'amour
La mer
A bercé mon cœur pour la vie
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Oct, 2013 07:17 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foofie wrote:
a) I do not understand French. Speak in Spanish, if you like.
Well, since you used a French word, I thought, you would.


Foofie wrote:
c) The U.S. is an economic superpower by default, having been unscathed in WWII; therefore, the U.S. could make consumer goods before Europe/Japan/China could. So, the U.S. only became an economic superpower SERENDIPITOUSLY, and can ethically act self-serving in a global economy, in my opinion, where other countries get into high debt, and then bellyache over austerity measures. Why should the U.S. be the only adult in the room, so to speak?[
Interesting, as already Pasteur said, La chance ne sourit qu'aux esprits bien préparés.



Since I stated I know no French, you then reply with a French thought from Pasteur. So, I cannot gain anything from your French quotations.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Oct, 2013 07:24 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
I thought you were claiming that I was libeling? Can you be more specific, since you had a comment about libeling. Making oblique comments adds little to the discourse.
You thought wrongly.

Might be that I had had commented about libelling during the 11 years here or somewhere else. But even if, it's not your business.

The discourse here is about "America Is Becoming Ungovernable". If Lordyaswas asks me about staying on the topic, I certainly will do so. I dispute that it's your job to be his thread-police.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Oct, 2013 07:28 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
Why should the U.S. be the only adult in the room, so to speak?



That's the exact opposite of what's actually happening.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Oct, 2013 07:28 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
Since I stated I know no French, you then reply with a French thought from Pasteur. So, I cannot gain anything from your French quotations.
I'm not sure, if it's correct, but Isaac Asimov translated it to "La suerte favorece sólo a la mente preparada."
0 Replies
 
 

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