oristarA wrote:Who said that? When?It seems that New York State complementarily [???]
and finally admitted the indissoluble and sacred nature of the United States,
Did someone say that the US was sacred?
David
oristarA wrote:Who said that? When?It seems that New York State complementarily [???]
and finally admitted the indissoluble and sacred nature of the United States,
Did someone say that the US was sacred?
David
OmSigDAVID wrote:
oristarA wrote:Who said that? When?It seems that New York State complementarily [???]
and finally admitted the indissoluble and sacred nature of the United States,
Did someone say that the US was sacred?
David
The ideas put forward by The Declaration of Independence are sacred, Dave. Thus a nation so conceived and so dedicated obtains in some ways the nature of sacredness.
Of course I would like to hear your argument that such a nation is not sacred in any ways.
In my opinion, the inverse explains the sentence better. That meaning that in America no one is an "outsider." In Europe and elsewhere certain groups have been assigned the designation as outsider. That might have precipitated genocide, or expulsion. There are no "outsiders" officially in the U.S., even though some of the less enlightened folk do like that term, and would like to bring it to our shores, so the U.S. can become a knock-off of a homeland that resides somewhere in a collective memory, perhaps.
Gettysberg Address
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate, we can not consecrate, we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
EXECUTIVE MANSTON,
WASHINGTON, Aug. 22, 1862.
Hon. Horace Greeley:
DEAR SIR: I have just read yours of the 19th, addressed to myself
through the New-York Tribune. If there be in it any statements or
assumptions of fact which I may know to be erroneous, I do not now and
here controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may
believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here argue against them.
If there be perceptible in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive
it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to
be right.
As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing," as you say,
I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.
I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the
Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored the
nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who
would not save the Union unless they could at the same time save
Slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save
the Union unless they could at the same time destroy Slavery, I do not
agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the
Union, and is not either to save or destroy Slavery. If I could save the
Union without freeing any slave, I would do it, and if I could save it
by freeing all the slaves, I would do it, and if I could save it by
freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that.
What I do about Slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to
save this Union, and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe
it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall
believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I
shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct
errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as
they shall appear to be true views. I have here stated my purpose
according to my view of official duty, and I intend no modification of
my oft-expressed personal wish that all men, everywhere, could be free.
Yours,
A. LINCOLN.
I think it's all a con. I've been doing some research, and I discovered that when Mr. Lincoln was president,
he lived in Washington DC, not Gettysburg at all.
I think it's all a con. I've been doing some research, and I discovered that when Mr. Lincoln was president, he lived in Washington DC, not Gettysburg at all.
oristarA wrote:Lincoln also wrote this, Oristar
Gettysberg Address
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate, we can not consecrate, we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
(for which I do not blame him):
Abraham Lincoln wrote:All emfasis has been added by David.EXECUTIVE MANSTON,
WASHINGTON, Aug. 22, 1862.
Hon. Horace Greeley:
DEAR SIR: I have just read yours of the 19th, addressed to myself
through the New-York Tribune. If there be in it any statements or
assumptions of fact which I may know to be erroneous, I do not now and
here controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may
believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here argue against them.
If there be perceptible in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive
it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to
be right.
As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing," as you say,
I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.
I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the
Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored the
nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who
would not save the Union unless they could at the same time save
Slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save
the Union unless they could at the same time destroy Slavery, I do not
agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the
Union, and is not either to save or destroy Slavery. If I could save the
Union without freeing any slave, I would do it, and if I could save it
by freeing all the slaves, I would do it, and if I could save it by
freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that.
What I do about Slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to
save this Union, and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe
it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall
believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I
shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct
errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as
they shall appear to be true views. I have here stated my purpose
according to my view of official duty, and I intend no modification of
my oft-expressed personal wish that all men, everywhere, could be free.
Yours,
A. LINCOLN.
The ideas put forward by The Decleration of Independence are sacred, Dave. Thus a nation so conceived and dedicated obtains in some ways the nature of sacredness.
Of course I would like to hear your argument that such a nation is not sacred in any ways.
Quote:The ideas put forward by The Decleration of Independence are sacred, Dave. Thus a nation so conceived and dedicated obtains in some ways the nature of sacredness.
Of course I would like to hear your argument that such a nation is not sacred in any ways.
That's easy, Ori. The US is not at all sacred, in fact it is the opposite. It was founded on terrorism and terrorist acts. It covered those crimes with all manner of lofty bullshit but that didn't change the fact that it was a grand set of crimes. It set the stage for how the US handled, and still handles most disputes, by force, not by diplomacy.
The ideals espoused were never followed. They were serially abused from the get go and things haven't changed some 230 years later. Serial lies and serial abuse is all the governments of the US have handed out to the peoples of the world, including China.
Well, just one thing:
Quote:Well, just one thing:
That "just one thing" is neither here nor there, Ori. The important part of all this is that the crap being put forward in this thread is all lies. The US has been nothing but a band of murderers and thieves from its origins. All of the laudatory language is fatuous lies and propagandist bullshit.
OmSigDAVID wrote:
oristarA wrote:Lincoln also wrote this, Oristar
Gettysberg Address
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate, we can not consecrate, we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
(for which I do not blame him):
Abraham Lincoln wrote:All emfasis has been added by David.EXECUTIVE MANSTON,
WASHINGTON, Aug. 22, 1862.
Hon. Horace Greeley:
DEAR SIR: I have just read yours of the 19th, addressed to myself
through the New-York Tribune. If there be in it any statements or
assumptions of fact which I may know to be erroneous, I do not now and
here controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may
believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here argue against them.
If there be perceptible in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive
it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to
be right.
As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing," as you say,
I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.
I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the
Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored the
nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who
would not save the Union unless they could at the same time save
Slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save
the Union unless they could at the same time destroy Slavery, I do not
agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the
Union, and is not either to save or destroy Slavery. If I could save the
Union without freeing any slave, I would do it, and if I could save it
by freeing all the slaves, I would do it, and if I could save it by
freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that.
What I do about Slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to
save this Union, and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe
it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall
believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I
shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct
errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as
they shall appear to be true views. I have here stated my purpose
according to my view of official duty, and I intend no modification of
my oft-expressed personal wish that all men, everywhere, could be free.
Yours,
A. LINCOLN.
That is exactly why I said that Lincoln was not a Great Emancipator. His understanding deepened over time. He's a man among us, standing above the common herd.
America is "Poor the government, rich the people," while China is "Rich the government, poor the people." Who's that greater liar, America or China, JTT?
America is "Poor the government, rich the people,"
The World's Most Generous Misers
by Ben Somberg
Extra, Oct 2005 - Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR)
In March 1997, a joint poll by the Washington Post, Harvard University and the Kaiser Family Foundation asked Americans which area of federal expenditure they thought was the largest.
Was it Social Security (which actually constituted about a quarter of the budget)? Medicare? Military spending? Sixty-four percent of respondents said it was foreign aid-when in reality foreign aid made up only about 1 percent of total outlays (Washington Post, 3/29/97).
Today, Americans think about 20 percent of the federal budget goes toward foreign aid. When told the actual figure for U.S. foreign aid giving (about 1.6 percent of the discretionary budget), most respondents said they did not believe the number was the full amount (Program on International Policy Attitudes, 3/7/05).
It's no wonder that most Americans think they live in an extremely generous nation: Media reports often quote government officials pointing out that their country is the largest overall aid donor, and the biggest donor of humanitarian aid. But what reporters too often fail to explain is how big the U.S. economy is-more than twice the size of Japan's, the second largest, and about as big as economies number 3-10 combined. Considered as a portion of the nation's economy, or of its federal expenditures, the U.S. is actually among the smallest donors of international aid among the world's developed countries.
The Development Assistance Committee of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development compiles statistics on how much Official Development Assistance the world's 22 wealthiest countries give each year. The organization's numbers show that as a portion of Gross National Income (roughly equivalent to GDP), the U.S. now ranks second-to-last in giving, at 0.16 percent. (In 2004, Italy dropped into last place below the U.S.)
The U.S. also gives much less than what the industrialized countries pledged to give at the 1992 Rio Conference, which was 0.7 percent of their GDP. U.S. development aid, at 0.16 percent of GDP, represents less than one-quarter of this promise.
While foreign aid giving is hardly the only issue, domestic or international, on which Americans hold distinctly incorrect beliefs-misperceptions around the circumstances of the Iraq War are another good recent example-the disparity between the public's perception and the truth in this case is abnormally large. A look at media coverage of U.S. foreign aid giving in the days after the Indian Ocean tsunami disaster of December 26, 2004 helps reveal why Americans might think they're more generous than they are.
"Known for generosity"
Coverage of the Bush administration's pledges of aid to Asian nations battered by the tsunami failed to give context to the amounts mentioned, painting the U.S. in a charitable light. The day after the tsunami, the U.S. pledged $15 million in aid; a day later, the total was $35 million. After widespread criticism, the administration upped its pledge three days later to $350 million. The media almost always compared these numbers to the total aid pledges of other countries, not looking at how they ranked as a fraction of the nations' economies. The $350 million pledge, therefore, was the "largest contribution" at the time (CNN.com, 1/1/05).
The administration's line regarding aid giving was exemplified by Colin Powell's words in the days after the tsunami (ABC's Nightline, 12/30/04):
"We are the most generous nation on the face of the Earth. Now, if you measure it as a percentage of GDP, you can make the case that we're not as high as others. But if you measure it as actual money going out the door to help people, we are the most generous nation on the face of the Earth."
Andrew Nations, head of the U.S. Agency for International Development, similarly said that "we've never accepted the notion" that aid comparisons by national wealth are relevant (Fox News Channel, 12/29/04): Our GNP dwarves all other countries. Our economy grows much faster. Japan's economy has basically been not growing much over the last decade. And the Europeans have not grown that much, certainly in comparison to the United States. So what some people have done is to use the one indicator that makes us look bad to argue this. And I have to say it is ridiculous.
Fox host Chris Wallace at the end of his interview thanked Nations for "giving us a perspective, a little bit of a reality check on all of this."
Establishing foreign aid giving standards based on the size of a nation's economy is no newfangled idea, though; it was in 1970, after all, that the U.N. General Assembly first supported the standard of developed nations giving 0.7 percent of their GDP towards non-military foreign aid (a percentage that the United States has never come close to reaching). Generosity that isn't measured based on ability to give would inevitably paint smaller countries as stingy-unless they gave an astronomical percentage of their incomes.
...
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Foreign_Policy/Most_Generous_Misers.html
Quote:America is "Poor the government, rich the people," while China is "Rich the government, poor the people." Who's that greater liar, America or China, JTT?
You keep going off on tangents, Ori.
Quote:America is "Poor the government, rich the people,"
An absolutely laughable notion. US governments are in power to support the rich [1%] by stealing from the poor of the world all at the expense of the American sheeple.
Quote:The World's Most Generous Misers
by Ben Somberg
Extra, Oct 2005 - Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR)
In March 1997, a joint poll by the Washington Post, Harvard University and the Kaiser Family Foundation asked Americans which area of federal expenditure they thought was the largest.
Was it Social Security (which actually constituted about a quarter of the budget)? Medicare? Military spending? Sixty-four percent of respondents said it was foreign aid-when in reality foreign aid made up only about 1 percent of total outlays (Washington Post, 3/29/97).
Today, Americans think about 20 percent of the federal budget goes toward foreign aid. When told the actual figure for U.S. foreign aid giving (about 1.6 percent of the discretionary budget), most respondents said they did not believe the number was the full amount (Program on International Policy Attitudes, 3/7/05).
It's no wonder that most Americans think they live in an extremely generous nation: Media reports often quote government officials pointing out that their country is the largest overall aid donor, and the biggest donor of humanitarian aid. But what reporters too often fail to explain is how big the U.S. economy is-more than twice the size of Japan's, the second largest, and about as big as economies number 3-10 combined. Considered as a portion of the nation's economy, or of its federal expenditures, the U.S. is actually among the smallest donors of international aid among the world's developed countries.
The Development Assistance Committee of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development compiles statistics on how much Official Development Assistance the world's 22 wealthiest countries give each year. The organization's numbers show that as a portion of Gross National Income (roughly equivalent to GDP), the U.S. now ranks second-to-last in giving, at 0.16 percent. (In 2004, Italy dropped into last place below the U.S.)
The U.S. also gives much less than what the industrialized countries pledged to give at the 1992 Rio Conference, which was 0.7 percent of their GDP. U.S. development aid, at 0.16 percent of GDP, represents less than one-quarter of this promise.
While foreign aid giving is hardly the only issue, domestic or international, on which Americans hold distinctly incorrect beliefs-misperceptions around the circumstances of the Iraq War are another good recent example-the disparity between the public's perception and the truth in this case is abnormally large. A look at media coverage of U.S. foreign aid giving in the days after the Indian Ocean tsunami disaster of December 26, 2004 helps reveal why Americans might think they're more generous than they are.
"Known for generosity"
Coverage of the Bush administration's pledges of aid to Asian nations battered by the tsunami failed to give context to the amounts mentioned, painting the U.S. in a charitable light. The day after the tsunami, the U.S. pledged $15 million in aid; a day later, the total was $35 million. After widespread criticism, the administration upped its pledge three days later to $350 million. The media almost always compared these numbers to the total aid pledges of other countries, not looking at how they ranked as a fraction of the nations' economies. The $350 million pledge, therefore, was the "largest contribution" at the time (CNN.com, 1/1/05).
The administration's line regarding aid giving was exemplified by Colin Powell's words in the days after the tsunami (ABC's Nightline, 12/30/04):
"We are the most generous nation on the face of the Earth. Now, if you measure it as a percentage of GDP, you can make the case that we're not as high as others. But if you measure it as actual money going out the door to help people, we are the most generous nation on the face of the Earth."
Andrew Nations, head of the U.S. Agency for International Development, similarly said that "we've never accepted the notion" that aid comparisons by national wealth are relevant (Fox News Channel, 12/29/04): Our GNP dwarves all other countries. Our economy grows much faster. Japan's economy has basically been not growing much over the last decade. And the Europeans have not grown that much, certainly in comparison to the United States. So what some people have done is to use the one indicator that makes us look bad to argue this. And I have to say it is ridiculous.
Fox host Chris Wallace at the end of his interview thanked Nations for "giving us a perspective, a little bit of a reality check on all of this."
Establishing foreign aid giving standards based on the size of a nation's economy is no newfangled idea, though; it was in 1970, after all, that the U.N. General Assembly first supported the standard of developed nations giving 0.7 percent of their GDP towards non-military foreign aid (a percentage that the United States has never come close to reaching). Generosity that isn't measured based on ability to give would inevitably paint smaller countries as stingy-unless they gave an astronomical percentage of their incomes.
...
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Foreign_Policy/Most_Generous_Misers.html
oristarA wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:
oristarA wrote:Lincoln also wrote this, Oristar
Gettysberg Address
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate, we can not consecrate, we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
(for which I do not blame him):
Abraham Lincoln wrote:All emfasis has been added by David.EXECUTIVE MANSTON,
WASHINGTON, Aug. 22, 1862.
Hon. Horace Greeley:
DEAR SIR: I have just read yours of the 19th, addressed to myself
through the New-York Tribune. If there be in it any statements or
assumptions of fact which I may know to be erroneous, I do not now and
here controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may
believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here argue against them.
If there be perceptible in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive
it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to
be right.
As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing," as you say,
I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.
I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the
Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored the
nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who
would not save the Union unless they could at the same time save
Slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save
the Union unless they could at the same time destroy Slavery, I do not
agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the
Union, and is not either to save or destroy Slavery. If I could save the
Union without freeing any slave, I would do it, and if I could save it
by freeing all the slaves, I would do it, and if I could save it by
freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that.
What I do about Slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to
save this Union, and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe
it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall
believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I
shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct
errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as
they shall appear to be true views. I have here stated my purpose
according to my view of official duty, and I intend no modification of
my oft-expressed personal wish that all men, everywhere, could be free.
Yours,
A. LINCOLN.
That is exactly why I said that Lincoln was not a Great Emancipator. His understanding deepened over time. He's a man among us, standing above the common herd.
WHAT did he understand, Oristar? Please explain.
David