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Obamacare... 'Affordable'???

 
 
JPB
 
  3  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 01:51 pm
I was going to wait to see if glitch returned before posting this but Occom Bill just posted a VERY LONG, but very good, post on Facebook. I have his permission to grab it and post it here for glitch's benefit.

Glitch -- if you see this. O'Bill is a former regular member (also libertarian leaning independent) here. He lives in WI so his numbers specify someone who lives in Milwaukee. His research is his own, but includes references to his sources.

Quote:
Ran my mouth too long to post on someone else’s page, so I’m posting a collection of my thoughts here for present and future reference. Someone had re-posted some nonsense about the ACA and some crazy-false assumptions about the costs of same:

$12,700 is the out of pocket expense cap for families, NOT the deductible (half that for singles.) The moderately priced "Silver Plan" is expected to cover 70% of expenses and for example a Silver plan A may have a $2,000 deductible with a 15% coinsurance payment, or you may choose Silver plan B for a $250 deductible with a 30% coinsurance payment. Either way your insurance kicks in long before your $12,700 cap, but that is the maximum out of pocket not including your premium. (Source= Forbes) Using the Kaiser calculator for examples (Source=Kaiser):

1) a family of 4 living in Milwaukee earning income of $47,000 a year (X2 Poverty level) can have Silver policy valued at $10,988 for $2,952 ($246 per month) after subsidy.
2) Same family at poverty level of $23,500= No Premium at all.
3) Same family earning $35,250 (X1.5 Poverty level)=$1,404 ($117 per month)
4) Same family earning $58,750 (X2.5 Poverty level)=$4,718 ($393 per month)
5) Same family earning $70,500 (X3 Poverty level)=$6,684 ($557 per month)
6) Same family earning $82,250 (X3.5 Poverty level)= $7,814 ($651 per month)
7) Same family earning $94,000 (X4 Poverty level)= $8,930 ($744 per month)
8 )Same family earning $95,000 or more = $10,988 ($916 per month)

Take away Obamacare and All of these families would pay $10,988 ($916 per month) for this level of coverage. Obamacare doesn't set the price; it helps poorer people pay for it, while mandating that people who can afford to contribute to their own needs do so. There is a wealth of other benefits, including but not limited to capping out of pocket expenses at $12,700 in the event of catastrophic healthcare needs.

Now those with insurance already need not do anything, unless this would benefit them and they'd like that benefit. Those without insurance will obviously benefit greatly, and though they may not want to pay their share during the healthy years of their lives, a guy would be hard pressed to say he legitimately still can't afford to do so. For a legitimate comparison point; talk to anyone who's dealt with Cobra as an alternative, and you'll see this is wonderful legislation for anyone who's lost their job, or would like to quit it to try and start his own thing. How many people have been locked into jobs they hate, simply because they couldn't afford to lose their insurance? Even in this "no public option" form, this is good for America.

MORE: A quick search reveals $8,608 (roughly $2.5 Trillion total, or $717 per month, per head) is the per capita cost of healthcare in these United States. Like it or not, this has to be paid somehow, because this is what we ALREADY pay. As a whole, we are buying healthcare at mini-bar prices and are the only Country on Earth that does so. Life expectancy in these United States is about 79, so in today’s money, the lifetime cost of healthcare is about $680,000 per person, or $1,360,000 per married couple. That sounds extraordinary because it is. No other country even comes close, and all but 8 countries pay less than half that much, and all but 24 pay less than a quarter as much. Meanwhile, we are tied for 33rd place for average life expectancy, so as a whole, we are certainly NOT getting what we pay for. For some perspective, know that in 2010 Cubans paid less than $500 per capita, and had a life expectancy essentially equal to our own (78.) Given the choice, what percentage of Americans do you suppose would choose not to buy “the best healthcare money can buy”, if they had a Cuba-like alternative for 6 cents on the dollar? (All these numbers grabbed from wiki)

Young people obviously cost less than old people on the average, but left to their own devices, what percentage of Americans will sock enough money away while they’re young, to be able to cover those enormous costs when they’re older? Not too many, but since we’re not heartless barbarians, we will continue to take care of people as needed in the hospital emergency rooms if need be (at mini-bar prices, to which we all contribute anyway.)

The criticism that an Insurance mandate unfairly orders citizens to enrich insurance companies is a legitimate criticism. PricewaterhouseCoopers concluded that the law’s state-based health care exchanges provide private insurers with a lucrative new market in which they stand to gain up to $200 billion in revenue by 2019. I don’t know how they arrived at that figure, but the ACA does require 80% of insurance dollars to be spent on actual care, so administrative costs+ profits using today’s numbers will be limited to a Half a Trillion dollars per year in today’s money, based on the 2.5 Trillion we collectively already spend.

Medicaid by contrast operates with an administrative cost of 7% and obviously doesn’t make a profit, so for comparison purposes: that’s 93% efficiency for 60 million Americans, compared to 80% efficiency from the private sector covering roughly 200 million (that 80% would need some adjustment, since the insurance parasites don’t get to squander 20% of co-pays or cash transactions.) It should be noted this 80% is itself an improvement brought to you by the ACA. The question begged is, why can’t Americans purchase a “Public Option” and take advantage of Medicaid’s more efficient public model for themselves? Without correcting for an even greater economy of scale, that option would save Americans per capita over $1,000 dollars per year. (Collectively, that could save of a couple hundred Billion dollars a year if everyone chose that option, by eliminating countless billions in parasitical profit.) Sadly, this option was part of President Obama’s original plan, but it was blocked by Republicans despite approval from the majority of the American people.

So why did Republicans block the Public Option? That’s simple. It would hurt their puppet-master campaign financiers (Billionaire insurance special interests), while allowing Democrats to take credit for improving Healthcare for the vast majority of Americans via “bigger government.” It is imminently predictable that the vast majority of Americans would eventually choose the more cost effective Public Option, and thereby drive a death nail into the canard that the “free market” is always more efficient than the government. This simply isn’t ‘always’ so.

Apart from Medicaid, see the United States Postal Service for another example of a publicly administered enterprise that dominates the private sector in a fair competition. While it’s true that Congress is holding the price of postage down artificially at current, causing the USPS to operate at a loss, the efficiency of the model remains obvious to anyone who bothers to look. The cost of postage has under-paced inflation over the last several decades at roughly the same rate the cost of Healthcare has outpaced it. While FedEx and UPS have carved out some niche markets for profitability; neither would dare try to capture the USPS’s primary function of delivering mail. It should be noted that not only does the USPS offer delivery of same for substantially less than any unfettered private enterprise, they are the only entity that delivers to every address in the United States… and in fact have partnered with FedEx and UPS to make the final deliveries to many addresses. Meanwhile, those carriers reciprocate (for a profit) in areas where they are in fact more efficient. What do you know; a cooperative effort in which the government insures service to every household in the United States, while private enterprise is allowed to compete in any way they wish, effectively insuring coverage for all, with no limitation on choice whatsoever. What could be wrong with that?

The simple truth is that Medicaid already demonstrates that government administers healthcare to 20% of Americans, 2 to 3 times more efficiently than private enterprise otherwise would, if they would at all, which they wouldn’t, as demonstrated by the fact they haven’t. And no private insurer is more efficient than Medicaid. Not a single one.

So, the most legitimate knock on “Obamacare” is that it doesn’t come with a “Public Option”, but this can’t be blamed on Obama. The mandate itself is something Conservative Republicans should jump for joy about, because it is designed to force people who can afford to pay their own way to do so. This hurts only the guy who would otherwise choose not to set aside the average of $717 per head, per month, that his own household will eventually need to cover their own costs on the average. Yes, I realize a sizeable portion of that is already confiscated by government to that end, whether he likes it or not, but do you? Arguments against all manner of government subsidized healthcare are always heavily laden in terms of “government takeover” and “increased taxes”, etc. But how many Americans stop to consider the actual costs of Healthcare in that assessment?

Now that Americans are becoming mandated to contribute to their own healthcare costs in a fashion roughly commiserate with their ability, how long will it be before they insist on a right to take advantage of their government’s already proven ability to administer it more efficiently via a Public Option? All else being equal, how many wouldn’t prefer to pay a $624 in tax, instead of $717 to a private insurer, if they received an identical benefit for doing so? Keep in mind, these numbers apply only to the “average” person, and the average income earner qualifies for very little subsidy under the ACA subsidies, if any.

This first step is as good as it’s ever going to get for the billionaires who finance the Republican Party for the sole benefit of the billionaires who finance the Republican Party. The public option will no doubt be the next step, because it is good for pretty much everyone except the parasitical for-profit insurance companies. Even the Republicans in the House will eventually abandon these campaign-finance rainmakers, when the American public realizes how utterly wasteful these private insurers really are. While we do need to pool our resources for things like education, police, putting out fires, and healthcare; there is no compelling need to buy yachts for millionaires and billionaires out of those pooled funds.

Unless Republicans adapt to this pending realization; they will continue to find themselves digging into battle against the vast majority of their own constituents’ best interests. That paradox cannot remain tenable for long, regardless of how much disinformation they put out. Their true nightmares will be realized when Americans, like the rest of the civilized world, begin thinking about healthcare as a Human Right that all should be entitled to access to at an affordable price. Once this happens, they will no doubt vote for a progressive rather than a regressive taxing scheme to provide it. And a majority of Americans taking advantage of a “Public Option” provides the vehicle to effectively having single payer healthcare. Though that may sound like “dirty words” to some, it is precisely what we SHOULD be evolving towards.

A for-profit healthcare system will forever profit more when people are sick, and maintaining ailments forever will forever be more profitable that curing them. This inherent conflict of interest is the plague of the American healthcare system. Unlike the free-market for-profit free-for-all we have now; a single payer type entity realizes economic gains when people are NOT sick. Cures become more valuable than maintenance treatments, and a single payer type entity can set rewards accordingly, thereby driving private interests to work on healthcare breakthroughs that reduce the need for healthcare expenditure, rather than continuing to make it ever more expensive (profitable.) This isn’t good for the Republican financiers’ bottom line, but it is indeed good for the American people.

I should qualify my criticisms of the Republican Representatives in that they are only somewhat more culpable, but, both sides have their hands out to these parasites, and both sides’ votes have been altered by them. I only single out the Republicans because they are more culpable; not because I entertain any fantasies that politicians in general don’t pander to the guy with the biggest wallet. On this particular issue, the majority of Democrats just happen be on the right side of right. Universal Healthcare is a cause worthy of support, and “Obamacare” is a step in the right direction. Forbes Source and the Kaiser calculator
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 02:09 pm
@JPB,
Quote:
A quick search reveals $8,608 (roughly $2.5 Trillion total, or $717 per month, per head) is the per capita cost of healthcare in these United States.
next year is expected to be 8.900k not including the increase in consumption caused by ObamaCare, which is very difficult to predict but is likey to be substantial, in fact the healthcare providers are depending upon it. I think it is safe to say that our healthcare costs will be over $800 a month per person within two years for sure. look at wages. this is not doable, we must get the costs down before we are completely swamped with debt, which i think I remember is currently about $100k per head not including unfunded future liabilities such as pensions.
0 Replies
 
glitchgov
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 05:58 pm
@chai2,
Chai2... thanks for trying to explain some of the numbers. I really don't like when people come on here and assume stuff and say things like... What family of four expects to pay $1,000 a month in food? You're living high on the hog aren't you... in a nut shell anyway. Like you pointed out... I was putting that as a total for food and household expenses... like clothes... shoes... plants for the garden... gardening stuff... yards stuff... bug spray... carpet cleaner... cat food (or do I need to kill my cat?). I don't think $1,000 a month average for a family of four is out there at all. NOT to mention I didn't even include other costs.. like haircuts for four people... any medications we might have to buy... stuff for colds... flu. There has to be dozens, maybe hundreds of things I buy or services used that I'm not even thinking about right now. Oil changes... car washes... tune ups. Tons of things.

I don't know where you get that I'm a wack job.

I simply put down the costs of things... factual costs and because these people don't believe them, I'm crazy?

Rockhead is a moron. Hence the name Rockhead. While I get irritated with people, I'm not cursing at them like he is. Rockhead is 'entitled'.

In one of his posts he had the audacity to say 'It's people like me that can afford insurance' that are essentially screwing people like him because we aren't paying into the system for him. -- Well excuse me for not paying for your ass.

There's nothing questionable about the numbers I posted. What's to question? My taxes paid of $22,200? I assure you that's what they were. I wish to god there weren't that high... it made me sick when I saw how much we owed... three days before taxes were actually due. Oh, which brings me to another expense... $1,500 for taxes done with our CPA because it's pretty darn complicated. On April 13th our CPA sent us a notices saying we needed to pay the IRS $18,607... just write a check. Are you insane is what came to mind. The year before was our first year in our new office and we made in the mid 30's... which is somewhat expected the first year. Halfway through our 2nd year the CPA was suppose to meet with my wife and they were going to go over how much our increase was and if we needed to pay more in taxes and adjust what our quarterly amounts were. My wife injured her arm and they canceled that meeting. Somehow they swept it under the carpet and we went the whole year without adjusting the taxes being taken out. We knew we were making more, but we didn't realize how much more and when it came down to the end of the year we had only paid in through the quarterly taxes around $8,000. So it was quite a shock that in the end we owned 22,200 - $8,000 which we had already paid in and the total due was $14,200. She had said to write a check to the IRS for $18,607 because she didn't realize we had actually been paying the vouchers that she had given us in the beginning of the year.

So anyone that has anything to say about the costs I put up... please... ask me and I'll explain them to you. No need to sit there and say... there is no way anyone could spend that much. The costs I put down were pretty average. Like I said... there are a ton of things you pay for in the course of a week, month and year that you just don't think about all the time.

Oh, and the house... why wouldn't anyone believe that our mortgage is $1,200? Really... on a $197,500 house? The mortgage is around $1,000 a month... then they tack on the city's charges for the garbage /recycle / lawn waste garbage bins (and whatever else the city charges for)... and then the house insurance is built in also. We pay $1,200 each month. There's no magic there... I don't know why anyone would question that.

It's almost as if people are doing whatever they can to look at what I write and just try and find SOMETHING they can poke holes in. I'm not making anything up.

Yeah... our college loans are killing us. Guess what... that's what you have to pay when you go to college for a higher degree. We thought that going to college, going way into debt was going to pay off. Little did we know when we started the journey back around 2000, that having a higher degree and making more was going to end up actually screwing us over. How were we to know that if we just got a minimal job somewhere, and not further ourselves the government would simly give us everything on a Silver (care) platter.

Just to remind:
MAGI $89,346 for a family of four (DE)
Federal taxes - $18,600
State taxes - $3,600
Projected premiums - $9,492
Projected individual deductible - $5,000
Projected family deductible - $10,250

Our mortgage - $14,400
Tuition repayment - $15,000
Car payment - $5,000 a year (for two cars $200 each per month... no BMW here)
Car insurance - $2040 a year
Cable/internet/phone - $150 a month... $1,800 a year
Cell phone - $150 a month... $1,800 a year
Gas for vehicles - $200 a month... $2,400 a year
Household items and food... $1,000 a month... $12,000 a year
Electric bill / water bill... $200 or more together average... $2,400 a year

Total of bills above (all which are reasonable): $98,782
Now that's IF we paid the full amount of the insurance because we had to use the hospital for something big. So let's deduct the $10,250... and just take out the amount for the premiums that me must pay. That brings us down to $88,532.

And as you noticed... I only put the cost of some of the expenses we had... that's not all of them. I didn't put costs of maintenance items on the cars.. tires... brakes. I didn't put on there the costs of replacing big items (which we need to do soon) like the AC and heating unit... costing between $5,000 and $7,000.

I didn't add saving ANY MONEY for retirement. I didn't include any savings for college for the kids. I didn't add in money paid for things the kids do at school... clubs... bookfairs. I didn't include family outtings to the movies (twice a year) or aquarium/zoo (once a year).

So as you can see... it's not as if we've got all sorts of money bursting out a the seams. Sure... we could cut costs in certain areas. We could lower our cable bill/internet/phone bill $50 a month.. and crawl through the internet. We could get rid of our cell phone. Sad, since even people on all sorts of entitlement plans have iPhones. We might be able to shave off $10,000 a year all so we can afford to pay for this insurance.

Please, point out what costs are ridiculous or lies.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 06:04 pm
@JPB,
Before I read this from O'Bill, and I plan to - my own comment was on blueveinthrobber's thread on the subject, not this one. But you read me correctly.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 06:05 pm
@JPB,
Before I read this from O'Bill, and I plan to - my own comment was on blueveinthrobber's thread on the subject, not this one. But you read me correctly.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 06:13 pm
@ossobuco,
I read it, I knew he is smart. Say hi to him for me, when you see him online.

Uh, my pumping o'Bill should put anyone off as I remember arguing in the past.
0 Replies
 
glitchgov
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 06:27 pm
@JPB,
Thanks for posting it JPB... and the following is what I'd like to focus on...
"MORE: A quick search reveals $8,608 (roughly $2.5 Trillion total, or $717 per month, per head) is the per capita cost of healthcare in these United States. Like it or not, this has to be paid somehow, because this is what we ALREADY pay."

I get it. I does have to be paid like it or not.

The problem is too many people are allowed to use the system for free. That's why it's costing some people a fortune and others nothing.

I concede people making more should pay more. That's not the issue here. The issue is EVERYONE should pay something.

The table would be more fair like this (I changed the premiums... increased them for the people that were paying NOTHING or little):

1) a family of 4 living in Milwaukee earning income of $47,000 a year (X2 Poverty level) can have Silver policy for $2,952 (***$400 per month***) after subsidy.
2) Same family at poverty level of $23,500 = *** $200 a month premium***
3) Same family earning $35,250 (X1.5 Poverty level)= (***$325 per month***)
4) Same family earning $58,750 (X2.5 Poverty level)= (***$450 per month***)
5) Same family earning $70,500 (X3 Poverty level)= (***$550 per month***)
6) Same family earning $82,250 (X3.5 Poverty level)= (***$650 per month***)
7) Same family earning $94,000 (X4 Poverty level)= (***$750 per month***)
8 )Same family earning $95,000 or more = (***$800 per month***)

By people on the lower end paying into the system, it would allow the deductibles to be lower for all.
People under $50,000... each person would have a $1,000 deductible or $2,500 family deductible.
People over $50,000... each person would have a $2,500 deductible or $5,000 family deductible.

That wouldn't be exactly easy for me, but it's something that would work... $750 a month and a $2,500 individual deductible / $5,000 family deductible.

Allowing so many (from their words... 6 out of 10) people in America get this plan for $100 or less a month? So how is that fair that more than half the country pays next to nothing and the rest of us have to worry about paying a fine because as much as we'd like to have insurance, it's too F' ing much.
chai2
 
  4  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 06:35 pm
@glitchgov,
glitchgov wrote:


Our mortgage - $14,400
Tuition repayment - $15,000
Car payment - $5,000 a year (for two cars $200 each per month... no BMW here)
Car insurance - $2040 a year
Cable/internet/phone - $150 a month... $1,800 a year
Cell phone - $150 a month... $1,800 a year
Gas for vehicles - $200 a month... $2,400 a year
Household items and food... $1,000 a month... $12,000 a year
Electric bill / water bill... $200 or more together average... $2,400 a year



I'm not your friend, or your enemy. I don't know anything about you, and I really don't care to.
However, I'll tell you right now how to cut your costs.

You don't say how much longer you owe on your cars, or how much longer your term is on your school loan....if you did I'm not going to search for it.
It's one thing to say you have $400 in car payments, but bullshit it you only have to carry all or half of it for only a few more months. For all I know you could have an extra $400 a month available in a couple of months. Don't make out like this is for the rest of your life.

How much is the balance of your student loan?

Drop your land line and your cable, keep the internet high speed.
Get netflix for $9 a month and watch all the TV and movies you want, and get your sports, news and weather from the internet.

Put some of that tuition debt on a credit card deal where you can make minimum payments for a year or some other variable time and play the switch cards to another deal thing when the introductory period is coming to an end.

You'll hear all sorts of warning about that, but that's crap. I've paid off most of a remodeling job of probably $15,000 or $20,000 from years ago, like around 2000, my payments are down to $60/month right now, and I've not paid a pennies worth of interest. I don't even know what the balance is, I don't care.
I was lucky though, a credit card I've had since 1982 or 1984 made an offer of zero percent for as long as it would take to pay it off, of course assuming you'd mess up and miss a payment. Not me.
chai2
 
  4  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 06:41 pm
@glitchgov,
glitchgov wrote:



The problem is too many people are allowed to use the system for free. That's why it's costing some people a fortune and others nothing.

So how is that fair that more than half the country pays next to nothing and the rest of us have to worry about paying a fine because as much as we'd like to have insurance, it's too F' ing much.


There's your problem, and the reason you lose sleep over this, in a nutshell.

Life's not fair....and when it is that might mean it's going against you anyway.

Thank God life's not fair or I personally would be in a world of ****.

Wah wah wah I don't like it that some people are getting something I'm not.

So what.
0 Replies
 
glitchgov
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 07:19 pm
@chai2,
My whole point of the list was to show that the things we are paying on are things that most Americans have. Nothing crazy... no vacations... no boats... no sports cars... no horses and riding sessions.

Let's say we get rid of the car payment... has a couple years on it... but let's take it off right now.... POOF... $5,000 per year savings.

Let's reduce to just internet... I talked with them before and they said it would be $50 a month. I'll take Netflix for $9 Alex... $59 a month... POOF... savings of $1,100 a year.

Let's reduce the smart phones to regular cell phones... heck... to the crap phones from those pre-paid systems like Sprint that drop the signal half the time. We'll need have to have the cell phones because we don't have a landline... remember, we dropped it. We need two since it's me and my wife. Let's pretend they'll give me the phone even though I know I'll have to pay $50 or so for it. Each cell phone is $40 a month... $80 a month total... POOF... a $740 savings.

That's a $6,840 savings.

Is there anything else I should drop? Stop eating? Maybe have the kids just eat 2 meals a day? Perhaps I should hyper-coast in the car... put the car in neutral and get real close to the tractor-trailers and draft them. I might just be able to save $100 a year doing that... so long as we don't crash.

So let's take off that $6,840 of savings by getting rid of the car payments... and reducing/removing services for phone, internet, cable.

The costs I have come up with which included just my premiums for the insurance (not including the $10,250 deductible god forbid something should happen to us or we have to go to the doctors for something) you suggest I have the money to pay for is... $88,532. Now subtract that $6,840 and you get = $81,692.

So after those money saving tips... my bills are still at $81,692. Oh... I forgot to add the costs of gifts for family members for their birthdays... for Christmas... you know... Mom, Dad, Wife... kids... stuff like that. I can't exactly say... here's a pat on the back... happy birthday.

Oh... and nowhere in all of that are we saving any money for retirement or college for the kids. So let's at least throw $3,000 a year into a retirement fund... that's $250... or $125 per month for each my wife and I (hope that doesn't sound too crazy)... afterall, we are in our 40's without much of any savings.

Oh... and the college education, yeah, that debt is going to be there until I'm in the grave. Together we owe more than $370,000 in student loan. The interest accrues at more than $700 a month because it's so high. Perhaps I should just call them and let them know you guys here think it's too much or outrageous and they'll let me slide for a couple of years, interest free???

And putting some of the tuition debt on a credit card... even if we did... how much are we really going to be able to put on there? Let's say it was $10,000 and that's a high amount since we owe so much in student loans we wouldn't be able to get approved for that amount... what's that's going to do when we owe so much more than that? It's like putting a band-aid on someone run over by a bus... like that's going to do any good.

I do appreicate you taking time to point out where I can save money. I'm already aware where we could save money. We could save more on electricty by turning off lights and tv's when not in the room. We will be able to reduce our AC and heat bill once we get new, much more efficient units... which again will cost $5,000 or more... we've had a few estimates and those are the lowest. Electric will probably go from $200 avg to $130 a month... we will see.

I really think we could save some money and pay for our premiums and keep our life close to the same. It's if we actually have to go to the doctors were we will struggle to survive. My young son has to go to the doctors every three to four months... usually costs about $200 plus $50 in medicines. But if we were paying a monthly premium of $800 a month as suggested by this Obamacare, we wouldn't have enough money to be paying for the visit which will not be paid by our "healthcare" because of our ridiculous $10,250 family deductible.

I remember only a few short years ago knowing people that had deductibles of $2,500 and family deductibles of $5,000... and I remember thinking... Jesus... what a crappy plan that is. You have to pay a premium and then pay for all your costs at the doctor's office up to $5,000??? Holy cow.

Now I wish I could get a plan like that... how sad is that?
chai2
 
  5  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 07:35 pm
@glitchgov,
oh...now I see why you're a wack job.

discounting over $6000 savings per annum, and immediately jumping from that to saying maybe you should feed your family twice a day.

How much can you put on your credit card you ask?
I have no idea.

I do know that along with not really caring if life's fair, I'm not into creating hypothetical situations. I just care about mine.

Stick a fork in me, I'm done.
glitchgov
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 07:36 pm
@glitchgov,
And for the LOVE OF GOD... can someone on that healthcare (dot) gov get on the ball and fix the glitches?

It's been nearly two full weeks and I STILL can't get open up the 'View Eligibility Results".

How can you roll out something so broke? Absolutely horrible.

But I know... I know... just keep 'waiting for it'... because it will be a thing of greatness once actually works. (eyes rolling to the very back of my head)

Let's just hope they can fix the website before it's actually mandatory.

Imagine... selling... I mean forcing people to buy a product on your site... a site that doesn't even work and frustrates almost all who visit it... and then threaten significant fines because you can't view the plans or even see the product they are offering.

Good job. Doooh! What was that DING... did we just hit the 17 trillion mark?

SAD... SAD ... SAD. Piss poor job that's going on... Congress and your 'leader' in the White House.
0 Replies
 
glitchgov
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 07:49 pm
@chai2,
I still have car payment for another 30 months... they aren't going away. You didn't fix anything. And if you know anything, you know that once a car is paid for it starts to nickel and dime you. All of a sudden the repairs start mounting up. The only time it doesn't is when you don't have to drive it... and I'm sorry, but we have to drive in our daily life.

Each of our credit scores were 730ish when we applied for loans to open up our business a few years ago. First we asked for $50,000 as asked by an advisor. We didn't think we needed that much, but we asked for it. They said no... so did five other banks (this was early 2010). Then we asked for $30,000... then $20,000... then $15,000. We couldn't get approved for anything. I joked once... the only way they'll let us borrow money is if we give them the money we're asking to borrow as collateral on money we borrow from them.

So my parents gave us up to a $30,000 loan if we needed it. The first month we borrowed $7,000. The next month we got scared because we needed another $8,000 and we were already halfway through the money. Luckily we stabilized after that and didn't need to borrow another dime. So we pay my mother back $300 a month for about 5 years... whatever it works out to. That's part of the business loans though... and is deducted in the business.

$10,000 is close to the max we can spend for healthcare after we cut back our bills as you suggested. So I guess it would be best for us to just pay the premiums... hope to god we don't get sick... because we'll have to pay for each and every doctor's visit up to $10,250.

Nothing is going to change... unless I win the lottery (which I can't spare a dollar for it anyway) OR we make significantly more in our business.. which is possible. This year we are on track for about the same though... $89,346... I think.

That will be another fun game.. the guessing game... you think you're going to make one amount and then you're off $10,000 by the end of the year. God forbid if you took subsidies... you'll get slammed with a $2,000 or so bill at the end of the year that you weren't expecting.

Anyway... Hail Obama... oh yeah...
IRFRANK
 
  3  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 08:46 pm
@glitchgov,
I understand the spot you are in and sympathize. Fortunately, I went to school 35 years ago and the company I worked for paid for it through tuition reimbursement. College was much cheaper. I can't imagine having a 200k loan. But, why is this a govt problem? What do what want them to do? Obama would like to make it easier to pay back student loans. Congress won't have anything yo do with it. What you are asking for in health care is single payer. Also would never get through congress. Again, I sympathize, just don't understand why this is Obama's fault.
IRFRANK
 
  7  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 09:00 pm
@glitchgov,
If you think the folks getting 'free' health care because they are poor are better off, why did you borrow $200k to go to school?
JPB
 
  3  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 09:37 pm
@glitchgov,
Quote:
$10,000 is close to the max we can spend for healthcare after we cut back our bills as you suggested. So I guess it would be best for us to just pay the premiums... hope to god we don't get sick... because we'll have to pay for each and every doctor's visit up to $10,250.


I don't think that's true. Office visits should be covered other than the copay. So are annual physicals. They don't go toward your deductible. Also, people with insurance get insurance negotiated billing for services at hospitals and labs. Those blood tests you mentioned earlier would have been reduced down to the negotiated amount which is usually a small fraction of the billed amount. That's how my $26,000 2-night hospital stay ultimately became $900 to me. The negotiated amount was $9000 and I was responsible for 10% of it. I had to fight like hell to get them to cover it, but once the battles were over it was affordable. I think I had to pay 20% of the lab bills. Those amounts applied to my deductible and, eventually, to the max out-of-pocket expense.
JPB
 
  3  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 09:46 pm
Quote:
Together we owe more than $370,000 in student loan. The interest accrues at more than $700 a month because it's so high.


That's insane. No idea why you thought taking on that much debt was a good idea. No idea why anyone would think taking on that much debt would be a good idea. You already need to pray you never get sick. I can't think of anyone who needs health coverage more than you do. Even a bankruptcy after a catastrophic illness won't eliminate student loan debt.

Good luck to you. I hope you get to the place in life you hoped for.
0 Replies
 
glitchgov
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 10:59 pm
@IRFRANK,
Why is having a $200,000 loan a governement problem?

It's not... it's my problem.

Frank, when you're growing up you hear from everyone... you need a college education so you can do well in life. While it's not necessarily always true, it is sort of the rule-of-thumb... or it use to be. Now days, you go to college forever year, after year... going through graduate school... rasing your college debt considerably, all so you can complete and get a job. Problem is the economy has stunk since around 2007. False numbers pushed by the Obama adminstration try and suggest Americans are gaining employment through looking at the unemployment stats. Then you start looking at the 'employment stats' and find 58 out of every 100 able-bodied workers are working... meaning 42 out of every 100 aren't. That number has dropped lower and lower since Obama's been in office. What's even worse is more than 20% of those included in holding jobs are under-employed or part-time. And with employers afraid they are going to have to pay the ridiculous costs of Obamacare, it's already well know many employers are going to lower their workers to part-time just to avoid paying penalties or healthcare costs.

So Frank... we've been groomed to do the right thing and get a college education. So I did. After I was in the military for nearly ten years. The GI Bill paid for more than $30,000 of college. I STILL owe nearly $200,000 myself, and my wife also owes about $170,000. I don't tell people what I do because I don't want them focusing on that rather than the issue at hand.

My problem Frank... is I feel duped. I feel screwed. I fell like I went out on a big limb... went way into debt and then found out that I shouldn't have. All I had to do was sit home on my ass and do nothing while the freebies start piling in.

You want free insurance? Sure... come on in. You don't want to pay taxes? NO problem.

So Obama comes up with a health insurance plan to help people pay for insurance. He comes on and paints this picture... and straight out says... Families will save $2,500 and more on this plan.

He then OPENS up the wallet and gives 6 out of 10 people in America healthcare costs that are 'lower than a cell phone bill'.

Frank... how is that fair to the people that actually have to pay for the system?

How is it fair to me... someone that paid $22,200 in taxes?

Obama or the people that did the numbers of Obamacare could have made it more fair for everyone but choose not to.

NOBODY should be getting a free ride on Obamacare. Why is it that only four out of 10 Americans need to worry about unconstitutional fines... oh... I meant taxes?

Make people pay $250 a month premium with a $1,000 deductible and $2,500 family deduction. Everyone should be sweating.

All preimums should rise for people under $70,000 under the current Obamacare projections. This problem would be fixed much easier if they made everyone responsible for paying at least a couple hundred instead of having people who so many perceive as having lots of money pay for the big bulk of it.

We're in trouble as a nation because there are too many give-aways. I don't care if you want to disagree with that... it's the truth. Sure there are other things, but millions upon millions are being given so many freebies it's causing the debt to run out of countrol.
Rockhead
 
  2  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 11:03 pm
@glitchgov,
are you joe the plumber?

cuz you sound a lot like that guy...
glitchgov
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2013 11:06 pm
@JPB,
"I don't think that's true. Office visits should be covered other than copay."

Are you for real? A deductible is the amount you pay BEFORE the insurance company starts to pay... oh here you go:

Deductible -noun
noun: deductible; plural noun: deductibles

1.
(in an insurance policy) a specified amount of money that the insured must pay before an insurance company will pay a claim.

I've gotten similar responses from other people who are liberals who will say... I don't believe that for a second because it does sound ridiculous. But then when they find out it IS that ridiculous, then it's like... yeah, but it's all for a good case to help everyone in need of healthcare.
 

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